Puzzles should be optional for quest completion

[Templarion]

Puzzles are only challenging thing in this game.

/not signed

We need more puzzles.

[elixer1]

/Not Signed

Puzzles are a fine addition, I don't think there should be one in every quest, and they should be careful about how difficult a puzzle is if it's mandatory.

Luckily you never have to do it alone, you can bring 5 or 11 other people with you, depending on the puzzle/quest.

[joneb1999]

What is it with people who can't understand that everybody does not think exactly the same way they do?

You know, there's a psychological theory that children develop an idea of other people as having different likes, motivations and knowledges to themselves at about age six. Sadly, a quick read of any messageboard blows that one right out of the water...

Ahem the fact we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions, abilities etc is the reason why there should be some sort of option on puzzles even if it is a skill that gives hints on a successful difficulty role such as revealing parts of the puzzle but not solving it completely.

The OP isnt asking for puzzles to be removed by the way and puzzles are interesting but I find them difficult and time consuming because i struggle. I find some difficult even having done quests many times.

[countfitz]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that puzzles won't ever be part of the critical path! It's simply a matter of catering to a larger audience. We want to cater to the people who love puzzles, and we don't want to leave the people who don't like them in the dust.

Personally, I'm one of the people who love puzzles, and love to see levels where puzzles play a prominent role.

OMG

1. In my year on the forums, never have I seen a developer post (though, in his five years, obviously he's posted over 100 times)

2. Never thought a developer would TAKE A SIDE on a silly, non issue like an OP saying he seriously wishes puzzles weren't a part of Dungeons and Dragons (by the way, seriously? It's like the only thing left in DDO that is even reminicent of PnP anymore!) especially when greensteel is broken at the moment!

3. I love that even he sides with the puzzlers! OP, I'm so sorry, but this is hilarious.

P.S. developer man, I love you, you've given me hope in developers!
P.P.S. Green Steel is broken right now, while I love that you are joining in this fight to save the puzzles, I think everyone else on the forums has it covered.

[ssgcmwatson]

Wow, three dev posts in one thread! Watch out folks, the end really is coming soon!

B.L.U.F. - /not signed

When I first started playing DDO, I was massively happy to see the puzzles on Korthos Island, as it indicated to me that DDO would not just be another hack-n-slash. I would love more puzzles, especially more that had some kind of randomization to them.

I love the idea of having some puzzles that can be assisted by Wis/Int skill checks, just like some encounters in quests that involve bluff/diplo etc.

One thing that might help the OP - a warning at the quest entrance if a solving a puzzle is required to finish a quest. I remember back before the "Party-based challenge" warning existed; I had solo'd my way through a bunch of nastiness just to get to a point where I needed another player to complete. Very frustrating.

[ceiswyn]

Ahem the fact we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions, abilities etc is the reason why there should be some sort of option on puzzles

The point I keep making here, however, is that that's true of everything in DDO. For example, I get lost easily (in-game, anyway; out-of-game I have an amazing sense of direction, but that's a whole 'nother topic) so maybe all mazes, or complicated maps, should be optional, or come with signposts?

Or person X finds jumping hard, so all jumping should be optional? Or person Y hates fighting large mobs, so all large mobs should be optional?

Once you start down that road, you end up with a straight line from entrance to chest, with all the bits that anyone doesn't like or finds difficult 'optional'.

As it is, quests where the elements people lump together as 'puzzles' - actual puzzles, jumps, difficult quest maps, end-bosses that require thinking to fight - are mandatory are in the minority anyway. We all have to put up with a few quests or quest elements that we don't like. And, because we know that we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions and abilities, because we know that what I hate others love and vice versa, we should just be willing to shrug and move on.

[Arakasia]

You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Yeah, i agree that they are frustrating sometimes but make the victory at the end SO much the sweeter having done it... and even more so if I've done them without the solver's that are out there...

I think your missing the point of it, its to make it challenging and interesting, and honestly do you think that the boss mobs out there would not use some piece of a defence system there if it makes it somewhat harder for various adventurer's out there to steal what they either won,stole or embezzled....

Would you???

[cpito]

The point I keep making here, however, is that that's true of everything in DDO....

Well said. I would like to add to this that DDO is, at heart, a social game. Quests are generally designed around co-operative play and including puzzles, mario jumping and
navigating are all ways to encourage that behaviour.

[zwiebelring]

Puzzles should be optional but they should be there. Raids should be no puzzlings imho because you play with 12 people and cannot solo these quests. (I really hate Reaver Raid for that. I even hate Mastermind. I want to have puzzles I don't have to use a solver for just because otherwise the time runs out and you will fail. And no, I don't want to learn another stupid boardgame or else first to be bale to solve a puzzle, but removing the timer coudl be an option)

Every other content made constant progress with puzzle locations. I personally liked to see more puzzles like in adq. No mathmatical stuff you can google or have to google. Riddles you figure out while being in the quest not using a solver or else but most important without timer.

But in the end it is a matter of work the devs can do with limitted budgets.

p.s.:
Mario shall die in hell and with him the whole genre he left us!

[SynalonEtuul]

I love puzzles and would like to see more of them.

[CalydorEstalon]

All I really see when reading the OP here is, "Whaaaa, I hate using my brain, it hurts! I just wanna solve everything like the neanderthals did it, by hitting it until it stops moving! Don't make me use my brain, I hate it hate it hate it!"

[joneb1999]

The point I keep making here, however, is that that's true of everything in DDO. For example, I get lost easily (in-game, anyway; out-of-game I have an amazing sense of direction, but that's a whole 'nother topic) so maybe all mazes, or complicated maps, should be optional, or come with signposts?

Or person X finds jumping hard, so all jumping should be optional? Or person Y hates fighting large mobs, so all large mobs should be optional?

Once you start down that road, you end up with a straight line from entrance to chest, with all the bits that anyone doesn't like or finds difficult 'optional'.

As it is, quests where the elements people lump together as 'puzzles' - actual puzzles, jumps, difficult quest maps, end-bosses that require thinking to fight - are mandatory are in the minority anyway. We all have to put up with a few quests or quest elements that we don't like. And, because we know that we all have different likes, dislikes, preconceptions and abilities, because we know that what I hate others love and vice versa, we should just be willing to shrug and move on.

Im not saying puzzles should all be optional in regards to avoiding them but there should be an option that allows for some assistance based on your toons abilities where its possible.

A decent jump skill makes jumping so much more easy and so in the same way perhaps to help you find your way there should be a direction sense skill that reveals a vague line to take if you can make the difficulty roll. I hate that maze in the Crucible but I dont know how you could actually assist that.

Infact to take all this further having skills such as for puzzle solving, direction sense etc may mean puzzles, complicated maps and other challenges could happen more often in quests and also there would be more of a reason to invest in skill points to help you navigate these obstacles and intelligence may not be a dump stat so often.

[ceiswyn]

A decent jump skill makes jumping so much more easy and so in the same way perhaps to help you find your way there should be a direction sense skill that reveals a vague line to take if you can make the difficulty roll. I hate that maze in the Crucible but I dont know how you could actually assist that.

Infact to take all this further having skills such as for puzzle solving, direction sense etc may mean puzzles, complicated maps and other challenges could happen more often in quests and also there would be more of a reason to invest in skill points to help you navigate these obstacles and intelligence may not be a dump stat so often.

It may be a pipe dream, but I'll /sign that

[Kushiel]

In general I dislike puzzles. Some more than others. Methods to avoid them altogether would (most frequently) be a boon for how, when, and why I play.

I have scrawled notes to permit me to get through some of them (PIT, CO6, Tangleroot). I've gotten reasonably proficient at some of the other static ones (Prove Your Worth, Haunted Library, VoN4) so that I can just do them, with a minimal of annoyance and stumbling.

Longer halls around with more foes, twisted passages that mean taking some damage one would not have to if a puzzle had been successfully completed - either would be a path I'd take over running back and forth spinning levers, twiddling floor tiles, or toggling unmarked switches (that may or may not be trapped anyhow). I especially hate standing around in varying levels of frustration watching buffs tick away... moreso even when I'm low on SP.

Options that give players choices in how they would like to progress through a quest are good things, I believe. If it brings them enjoyment from being in the world, playing the game... and *wanting* to come back because they had fun, I think it is a positive; and maybe on some given days they'll take the alternate paths they avoided and uncover different/new enjoyments with the world.