Puzzles should be optional for quest completion

[falcon2030]

These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

So what you are saying here RD is that we that Those of us that like puzzles should just look for another game?

Because, I know that when puggin a quest where the puzzles are optional anyone who wants to solve them is harassed into not solving them/wasting others time (only exception I can think of is the shroud puzzles for loot). That is not fun for those of us that do not like the mindless Hack-n-Slash. So, please keep some quests that require puzzle solving for completion or at the very least make it so that solving them is not looked upon as waste of time by those that enjoy the mindless.

[Gkar]

These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

Thanks for posting, and good call on the design choice.

If I could suggest a "tweak" to "optional" being not just making puzzels (and traps for that matter) ways to get at an extra chest, but as ways to find a faster/easier path.

So...take the left fork and there is a complex puzzel or a nasty trap. Disable it and you have a clear run to the next objective. Or take the right fork and there is no puzzle or trap but there are lots of bad guys that need killing.

It brings variety to the quest and changes the quest based on party makeup and playstyle.

[somenewnoob]

Thanks for posting, and good call on the design choice.

If I could suggest a "tweak" to "optional" being not just making puzzels (and traps for that matter) ways to get at an extra chest, but as ways to find a faster/easier path.

So...take the left fork and there is a complex puzzel or a nasty trap. Disable it and you have a clear run to the next objective. Or take the right fork and there is no puzzle or trap but there are lots of bad guys that need killing.

It brings variety to the quest and changes the quest based on party makeup and playstyle.

That's a fine idea. I like that. +1

[Ralmeth]

/Not Signed

Different quests are in the game for different people. If you don't enjoy solving puzzles and a certain quest has a puzzle in it that you need to solve, then why would you solo these quests? That sounds painful for you. Instead just join or form a group with someone else who wants to solve the puzzle and just pike the puzzle part. I see people do this all the time.

[SardaofChaos]

Incorrect. Search makes the puzzle from challenging to easy. It is possible to solo it with a cleric or a barbarian with no search at all. I'd recommend doing it on normal first because the guy would not get zapped as hard each time you get something wrong.

In this case I was more referring to when doing it for the very first time, if you don't have a clue where the wrong tiles are then you have to be kinda lucky to not kill him. I know you're a dev and all, but I am speaking from experience here. I killed him the first three times :P Wrong choice of words on my part, not really impossible but unlikely. Cleric would make it much easier since you can just heal him back up.

[Shaamis]

You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Puzzles are an integrated part of Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game. It's the challenge that a party of adventurers skulking through a dark, ominous dungeon sometimes encounter. strength or arms, and quickness of foot cannot get you past this obstacle, but rather your strength of knowledge and quickness of wit.

a true adventurer will tackle any obstacle, any monster, or any puzzle, to complete their quest.

Are you not a true adventurer?

[Uska]

No for some quests it should be required sorry dont need things to be easier and besides there are solvers for all puzzles available

[Angelus_dead]

A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

It's unfortunate to keep putting puzzles off in side rooms, as that makes them less prominent and the main process of beating the quest seems less special.

A variant I like is a puzzle on the main path of the quest, but with a combat bypass right there, so that players who can't/won't do the puzzle can work around it by fighting an extra-powerful enemy.

[Uska]

You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

then dont do those quests

[Uska]

From my experience, interesting is far more common than frustrating. Like someone else said, group with someone to do the puzzles and handle the parts that you don't want to handle. There are so many different quests and features in DDO, you can easily pick and choose what to play and what not to play.

Personally, I find halfling monks frustrating because they tend to be twitchy little speedballs on crack, but I wouldn't want them removed because other people enjoy playing them.

+1 but should be -1 cause you made me spit on my keyboard

[Uska]

These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

I would still like to see some required puzzles in some quests because even though I am not good at them its classic dnd

[Uska]

It's unfortunate to keep putting puzzles off in side rooms, as that makes them less prominent and the main process of beating the quest seems less special.

A variant I like is a puzzle on the main path of the quest, but with a combat bypass right there, so that players who can't/won't do the puzzle can work around it by fighting an extra-powerful enemy.

I like this idea

[SardaofChaos]

^ Seconded. That way people who can't do puzzles don't have to and people who can get to have fun.

[Zharfie]

My only complaint is that there aren't really any puzzles in this game at all... all existing "puzzles" are trivial walkthroughs... yawn...

also

Inferno of the Damned HAS NO PUZZLES, it's just run through and kill stuff quest, like everything else, so boring... bring in more puzzles!

[Seikojin]

These days, I tend to like putting puzzles outside of a dungeon's critical path, thus making them optional. We realize that puzzles aren't for everyone. At the same time, we also know that puzzles lend DDO part of its unique flavor.

By making puzzles optional, we allow the players who enjoy them to still experience them without diminishing the experience for people who hate being forced to solve puzzles. A good example of this is the puzzle in the new Update 9 dungeon, "In the Flesh." If you find it, you can solve it to get additional treasure, but by no means are you required to solve it to progress through the level.

That is unfortunate. I think after a certain point, puzzles should be part of the critical path.

The beauty of DnD is you could have your cake and eat it too. Just add a new quest line that involves puzzling.

I would like to see more stealth friendly quests. Everyone hates to admit it, but stealthy repo is one of the more challenging styles of quest to do good with no knowledge of rushing it.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Survey Said!




I can't believe you actually made this post, so you get 0 points

/ NOT SIGNED

[TheMidnightMage]

It would be nice to get a special completion bonus for getting all the puzzles. Hmmmm That's a thought, however I stand by my original statement.

[khaldan]

Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack)

You listed all of these, including rainbow in the dark, but skip the entire titan raid?

BOTH of those quests are almost entirely puzzles, and unlike and of these(with the possible exception of siegebreaker, haven't done it yet), are possible to screw up to the point of uncompletable.

And not just in one of the puzzles, in EVERY puzzle.

Crucible isn't that bad, it's just like every other quest in learning which corridor to run down. Rainbow is, or at least should be, very obvious. Inferno is fairly convoluted, but hey, it's like regular DnD, make a map! Prove your worth is also simple, and is fairly easy to brute force and just try every combination.

Honestly, I'd love for more puzzles to be put in the game, a la titan. Something where worthwhile raid loot is gettable through puzzle solving, not mass murder. Would have to be something that required teamwork (green side pre Ddoor, red side), otherwise there's not much point to it though.

[pie2655]

Really, someone else asking for a easy button. The challenge of the game has been reduced to much already, I enjoy the puzzles. In fact id like to see MORE puuzzles

[Cyr]

While I enjoy puzzles to a degree I also dislike puzzles being the main focus of a quest.

The reasoning here is simple, there is no good way to scale a puzzle for more powerful characters. Traps to punish you for doing something wrong in a puzzle really do not make the challenge that much harder for a first level toon compared to a capped toon, as long as someone bothers looking up the solution or knows the puzzle.

So puzzles are good, but don't make them the culmination of anything. Oh, kobold is a good puzzle...it's not the main challenge in the quest as the end fight is not a complete push over.