Working on a new gear set-up

[phalaeo]

Maarl's a guildie. We slam each other on a regular basis.

Hmmmm....

Maarl's no longer a guildie of mine, yet we also slam each other on a regular basis.

Is there anyone out there who has never been a guildie of Maarl's who wants to step up to the plate? If I keep looking, I'm sure we can find someone on another server who still manages to slam Maarl...

[Yaga_Nub]

Yes it does... chugging a pot means you are not swinging your weapon, which means you do less damage per second because there is a time period where yolur dps = 0 while you chug your pot.

Does it decrease your dps? Of course but too many people think that they HAVE to be swinging every single second or the whole group with fail. Guess what, there's other people swinging and casting as well so you can take your 3 seconds to chug a pot because the 100 to 300 hp of damage that is lost during those 3 seconds doesn't mean crud. You're not critting or smiting every single swing even with a 15-20 crit profile weapon.

Does it decrease your dps by a huge amount? Bnope. Plus, for the most part, he's in parties and there's a healer casting heals and mass heals on him so it's moot because he doesn't even need to chug the pot.

Bandy, what you and Maarl do in the privacy of your own bedrooms needs to stay there. Now I'm jealous because I thought I was only one that got to slam you. Forget the Leia outfit, I'm done with you.

[Jonny_D]

Hmmmm....

Maarl's no longer a guildie of mine, yet we also slam each other on a regular basis.

Is there anyone out there who has never been a guildie of Maarl's who wants to step up to the plate? If I keep looking, I'm sure we can find someone on another server who still manages to slam Maarl...

I have never been Maarl's guildy I have no problem slamming him even if he is in the best guild period.

[Nick_RC]

Hey mate,

Had a brief look through the thread and it seems you got much better qualified folks helping you out than I could - you know im not a big rogue person.

Only thing that leaps out at me is

1. How do you find ur too hit? what is ur final str vs dex scores?
2. I think ur wasting a slot with the bloodstone. With autocrit gone the dps increase over just the ravager is negligible especially on a dex based rog. Id likely drop it completely. Maybe when they fix the crafting system to make it useful you can put a nice trinket effect in there. Similarly you can probably scrape in more hp from a large guild slotted crafted item.

and I know you said you dont want to discuss str vs dex but would you consider a lr(Not TR) if it really helped out?

N

[Jonny_D]

2. I think ur wasting a slot with the bloodstone. With autocrit gone the dps increase over just the ravager is negligible especially on a dex based rog. Id likely drop it completely. Maybe when they fix the crafting system to make it useful you can put a nice trinket effect in there. Similarly you can probably scrape in more hp from a large guild slotted crafted item.

this is my opinion as well, thats why I like the telescope in the trinket spot for a rogue. True seeing, +20 search/spot,+2 except int, stackable +3 UMD and a slot for a stat either +6 or +7 gives you much more flexability in gear. Or as someone suggested adding a Litany.

The trouble with "ideal" gear set ups is the grind and making things work while you get what you need. In this day and age you almost need to build for multiple gear set ups so you can take advantage of future gear that will mess up your slot choices. Items like the Mabar Cloak or Wretched Twilight for example or the Ring and Necklace of Vulkoor etc. Kinda make a person appear "loot greedy" but if you are primarily fousing on gearing out your favorite toon most guilds should understand and if anyone cry's foul because you are taking loot you might be using right now just post a screen shot of the Smurf's sack or Tab with someone else in a compromising photo and it should all blow past

[bandyman1]

Hey mate,

Had a brief look through the thread and it seems you got much better qualified folks helping you out than I could - you know im not a big rogue person.

Only thing that leaps out at me is

1. How do you find ur too hit? what is ur final str vs dex scores?
2. I think ur wasting a slot with the bloodstone. With autocrit gone the dps increase over just the ravager is negligible especially on a dex based rog. Id likely drop it completely. Maybe when they fix the crafting system to make it useful you can put a nice trinket effect in there. Similarly you can probably scrape in more hp from a large guild slotted crafted item.

and I know you said you dont want to discuss str vs dex but would you consider a lr(Not TR) if it really helped out?

N

1 ) I find my to-hit adequate. 40 Dex ( would be 42 with an elusive +4 Dex tome ) gives me;

15 BaB
15 Dex
1 Racial
1 Ship Dex buff
4 GH
5 Weapon enchantment
41
-4 TWFing with Rapiers and no OTWFing feat
-5 PA
32

14 when sneak attacking/flanking
5 with divine power/madstone running ( and I've got a ****-ton of 5 charge clickies )
51

So +51 ( +52 with +4 tome...sigh ) right off the bat on most attacks, with PA running, and no bard anywhere in sight. Plus my reflex save ( especially vs. traps with two-rogue past lives ) is stellar.

My starting Str was 15 ( 16 would have been max, as I'm a halfling now ) to start, and I ate a +3 tome. The gear set up I'm looking at gives me perm +10, so 28. I can count on rage and ship buffs as perm additions for another 4, so 32. Madstone/madstone effect/Titan's grip will place Str even with my Dex, but it's just not sustainable. I use scrolls far to often to be running with madstone boots on in anything but a boss fight, and 3 mins ( if you didn't use more than one charge anywhere else in the quest, otherwise >3 mins ) per shrine is great for a boss fight, but that's about the limit of it's reliability.

Yugo pots, store pots, alchemical pots are just out. I don't use them. I'm not going to constantly spend TP and grind collectables for a minimal DPS increase. And if I did, I'd have to include them in my Dex calculations as well.




2) Yeah; I'm thinking you're totally making the right call here mate. I haven't really been using the bloodstone at all since I finished upgrading my pale lavender. I pretty much swap between it, and the HoGF skill checks.

I'd consider an LR if it really helped out bro. But to be honest, it'd take a lot more than Khopesh feat and +3 Str mod per hit ( +1 16 starting Str vs. 15, +5 level-ups into Str ) to get me there bro. Especially since a bit of the DPS gap between Khopeshes and rapiers was lost with the auto-crit loss to held mobs.

I've always been the first to say that a Str-based rogue will deal better DPS than a Dex-based. But I've always also been the first to say that's it's by nowhere near the margin peeps try to portray in the Str vs Dex debates of the rogue forums.




Thanks for taking the time to look Nick. Always look forward to chatting and running with you brother.

[thomprob]

I would comment bandy but I'm conceiving a plan to roll a max cha edynastic falcata wielding ac pally tank dumpstat str. :O

[Thucydides04]

Hey mate,

2. I think ur wasting a slot with the bloodstone. With autocrit gone the dps increase over just the ravager is negligible especially on a dex based rog. Id likely drop it completely.

Seeker 6 vs. Seeker 2 does 2.4 more damage per swing, regardless of str or dex. This value translates into roughly 5 damage per second.

[Nick_RC]

Seeker 6 vs. Seeker 2 does 2.4 more damage per swing, regardless of str or dex. This value translates into roughly 5 damage per second.

Right. Then average it down over non crittable mobs, fort on bosses, and it's not worth the slot IMO given what he's trying to do with his gear. Take into account he's already going dex over str and is halfling not half orc and it seems obvious to me maxing out dps isn't his main concern. Not like a pure assassin is lacking in dps. So yeah for bandys specific case it's not worth the slot IMO.

N

[Thucydides04]

Right. Then average it down over non crittable mobs, fort on bosses, and it's not worth the slot IMO given what he's trying to do with his gear. Take into account he's already going dex over str and is halfling not half orc and it seems obvious to me maxing out dps isn't his main concern. Not like a pure assassin is lacking in dps. So yeah for bandys specific case it's not worth the slot IMO.

You of all people should get that mr finesse/ac.

N

Firstly my post was intended to inform and nothing else. What other trinket is going to wear besides LotD? He said he doesn't have the trinket from the event so that is out for now and possibly forever. That leaves HoGF, which can be slotted on an epic blue slot.

As far as getting things is concerned, I understand what Bandy is trying to do since I talk with him quite regularly about it.

I also have toons that are not finesse (and are incredibly easy and boring to play), I think non self-sufficient meatwagons are lame. I mean how dumb do you have to be to mash powersurge, rage and haste boost and swing for the fences while screaming "Hjeal meh"? I have a new build in the works for when I finish TRing that I think will do well in the end game.

I think you misunderstand finesse builds. Finesse builds are about making a choice to compromise some dps in order to gain survivabilty and self sufficiency. The idea is not to throw dps out the window.

[theboatman]

I second the reconsideration of throwing the bloodstone out the window. Saying that the difference in seeker 6 and seeker 2 isn't important because he is a finesse build is like saying the difference between a starting 15 and a starting 10 in the strength column isnt important, because he is a finesse build.

Even against bosses with fortification, using high threat weapons like rapiers benefits greatly from a high seeker value, regardless of the strength modifier.

Vs noncrittable mobs, well, although technically correct, the trinket slot is one of the easiest slots to do item swaps on, as you don't have to worry about losing something else of importance that may be on that item.

Also depending on how attached you are to your greensteel, if you can make them the Epic Bracers of the Hunter are nice, for +5 sneak dice and +5 reflex save, and a yellow slot to boot. It doesnt help with threat reduction, but it opens up more options for an armor swap as well. It's situations like your's that make me think every time the greensteel deconstruction thread pops up: " I would be happy if I could just change the item/weapon to a different type while keeping the attributes the same."

[Nick_RC]

Firstly my post was intended to inform and nothing else.
I think you misunderstand finesse builds. Finesse builds are about making a choice to compromise some dps in order to gain survivabilty and self sufficiency. The idea is not to throw dps out the window.

yeah sry man quit smoking 3 days ago lil on edge. That's why I went back and edited. As to trinket slot I think litany would be the best option- save him some ehancements at minimum. I was under the impression u could craft new trinkets in the crafting system - there looks like there could be better options there- quite a few interesting mods.

'Some' seems relative to me. I would consider 4 seeker 'some' dps. I don't think anyone is 'throwing dps out the window' by losing 4 seeker damage. Seems exaggerated to me.

N

[Nick_RC]

I also have toons that are not finesse (and are incredibly easy and boring to play), I think non self-sufficient meatwagons are lame. I mean how dumb do you have to be to mash powersurge, rage and haste boost and swing for the fences while screaming "Hjeal meh"?

As opposed to ac that makes trivial content moreso and is useless in epics? Or is it the genius that it takes to master the ever so active tempest prestige...

That was a joke. Each to their own. Take it easy. What's the new build gonna be anyway?

N

[Thucydides04]

In U9 it's shaping up that assassinate might be much more useful with the removal of epic ward from trash. If this was the case you might consider finding a permanent spot for your +3 exceptional int.

I can't help but mention the str vs dex thing. I love the dex based characters that I've played but just about all the advantages that the choice has over a focus on strength are eroded in the epic geared context that you're talking about. Isn't it true that your strength will be similar to your dexterity when considering short term buffs? Isn't it true that dexterity won't give you any particular benefits except a slightly higher reflex save in the end game raid/epic context while costing you significant amounts of DPS, particularly vs 100% fort foes?

Regarding charisma skills GS item. Is there no better choice that conc-opp? Without a blue bar it only provides a 2% chance for 30 temporary HP, really doesn't seem significant for the high cost in mats.

Right. Then average it down over non crittable mobs, fort on bosses, and it's not worth the slot IMO given what he's trying to do with his gear. Take into account he's already going dex over str and is halfling not half orc and it seems obvious to me maxing out dps isn't his main concern. Not like a pure assassin is lacking in dps. So yeah for bandys specific case it's not worth the slot IMO.

N

As a public service I have crunched the numbers for a Strength Rogue vs. Bandy's Dex Rogue. The difference in damage per swing (and consequently dps) is quite small.

EDIT: I have included a comparison across races and weapons. The results are a few posts below because the images come out looking like doodoo if I include them in this post.

Here are the assumptions:

Dual wielding Min 2 weapons
Seeker +6
Fort = 0%
Always Backstabbing
Sneak of Shadows Feat Taken
Rogue Capstone
Power Attack is on
SA +5 Item (for +8 damage)
Halflings have full guile enhancements

For Non H-Orc Strength Rogues

18(16 for halfling) str + 5 level ups + 3 tome + 3 profane + 3 exceptional +6 item = 38 str(36 for the halfling)(+14 damage modifier/+13 for halfling)

For the H-Orc Strength Rogue:

Half-Orc with PA 3 enh
20 str +3 tome + 3 profane + 3 exceptional +6 item +2 enh +5 Level Ups = 42 (+16 damage modifier)

For the Dex Rogue:

Using Rapiers
15(17 for elves) Str +3 Tome +3 Profane +6 item +1 exceptional = 28(30 for elves/drow) (+9 damage modifier/+10 for elves)

Here are the damage per swing results and the percentage differences.

[Yaga_Nub]

As a public service I have crunched the numbers for a Strength Rogue vs. Bandy's Dex Rogue. The difference in damage per swing (and consequently dps) is quite small.

Here are the assumptions:

Dual wielding Min 2 weapons
Seeker +6
Fort = 0%
Always Backstabbing
Sneak of Shadows Feat Taken
Rogue Capstone
Power Attack is on
SA +5 Item (for +8 damage)

For the Halfling:

Using Rapiers
Full Halfling Guile
15 Str +3 Tome +3 Profane +6 item +1 exceptional = 28 (+9 damage modifier)

For the Strangth Rogue:

Using Khopeshes
Half-Orc with PA 3 enh
20 str +3 tome + 3 profane + 3 exceptional +7 item +2 enh = 38 (+14 damage modifier)

Thus the Str build has a damage modifier that is + 8 more than the halfling.
....

Why is the sneak attack damage 8 more for the finesse halfling? Is that for the halfling guile? I really dislike the little critters (especially Bandy) so I don't really know what halfling guile is.

[bandyman1]

Why is the sneak attack damage 8 more for the finesse halfling? Is that for the halfling guile? I really dislike the little critters (especially Bandy) so I don't really know what halfling guile is.

Yep.

[ShortRanger]

As a public service I have crunched the numbers for a Strength Rogue vs. Bandy's Dex Rogue. The difference in damage per swing (and consequently dps) is quite small.

Here are the assumptions:

For the Halfling:

Using Rapiers
Full Halfling Guile
15 Str +3 Tome +3 Profane +6 item +1 exceptional = 28 (+9 damage modifier)

For the Strangth Rogue:

Using Khopeshes
Half-Orc with PA 3 enh
20 str +3 tome + 3 profane + 3 exceptional +7 item +2 enh = 38 (+14 damage modifier)

Thus the Str build has a damage modifier that is + 8 more than the halfling.

Would you be willing to put in a third build Halfling Str based so that I can see the difference if he would go for a Lesser reincarnate as apposed to a TR? LR is a couple of hours TR has the 1-20 grind.

[bandyman1]

Would you be willing to put in a third build Halfling Str based so that I can see the difference if he would go for a Lesser reincarnate as apposed to a TR? LR is a couple of hours TR has the 1-20 grind.

It'd lose 6 Str and +3 damage per hit from the PA enhancements, and gain the guile enhancements.

Short answer; Still less than a 10% DPS difference, and to hit score would be much lower on anything beyond short bursts ( reliant on non-sustainable boosts ).

[Thucydides04]

Would you be willing to put in a third build Halfling Str based so that I can see the difference if he would go for a Lesser reincarnate as apposed to a TR? LR is a couple of hours TR has the 1-20 grind.

Here is a more comprehensive post.

[thomprob]

No one cares about my Pally?