Clr/FvS: Does divine punishment do too much damage?

[badbob117]

I love it so far. One of the few things for me that makes update 9 great . I Think it is perfect for divines. Good damage. Cool effects , level 5 slot for fvs so we can fit it in. It makes playing a divine caster so much fun now. Using this in rotation with other spells really is a welcomed change compared to pre update 9. Still quite a bit of sp to make the spell stack when totally maxxed out. It is a proper trade off as is.

I am all for keeping it the way it is. Love it! If they changed the spell to not being able to stack. I really don't think to many players would bother even taking it. I would not. It would just be another lame divine spell.

[Delt]

-Divine punishment can be cast from a fairly long range and cannot miss if you face the opponent (unlike searing light that can be dodged).

I don't believe "rays" can be dodged anymore. I haven't tested all of them, but of the ones I did test, only polar ray didn't track my targets like a heat seeking missle (not missing Disint's in PVE is nice...kinda lame for PvP).

Just throwing that out there.

[moops]

It's a very nice DoT, but just one shining example in an otherwise poor arsenal that Divines have.

Maybe you haven't seen it yet, but we now have electric savant sorcs stealing aggro from our melees w/o problem even though the melees have been beating bosses down for a while. AoE 3k+ crits along with their dots are common for sorcs now. Divines aren't even in the same zipcode of U9 arcane (esp Sorc) damage.

Divine Punishment is nice, but it's not even Melf's quality comparing my Earth Savant SLA to my FvS. Though it will be nice for some undead.

Yes, Sorcs are throwing 8sp Lighting for 800pts of damage.

I got 1251 in part 5 of shroud--True--To achieve this it was 180sp--much more expensive than a caster in term of SP to DPS ratio, even a non savant caster.

Not all Clerics and FVs will see these high numbers--How many Clerics will dump RS/Healing lines for full smiting lines? How many Melee FVS will have the room for full smiting lines? How many will have the gear to not only amplify, but recharge the SP to pay for it if they are a Wis Based FVS or Cleric?

I am a TR'd cleric Fully specc'd ehancement wise in smiting with Eardweller, mostly my stacks hit for 400-900--unless of course there is an Arcane around, then I can't get more than one on a non boss mob All these clerics who stand around in raids with their Stonemeld plates and a shield, are not going to get the same numbers until they play awhile and get the gear.

[justagame]

It never ceases to amaze me how, every time divines get something (and it isn't often!), the cries to nerf it are virtually immediate. The game has a number of issues, sure -- but I wasn't under the impression that clerics and FVS having too many damage options was one of them. Anyway, I did want to make a few points:

1. The fact that this thread appears to have been instigated out of a PVP complaint just further solidifies the rationale for completely ignoring PVP. It's not just that time spent by devs on PVP would be better utilized elsewhere -- it's that making changes -- any changes, based on what happens in PVP, has the danger to cause real harm in the PVE world. "He killed my uber toon, he needs to be nerfed" should never, ever, be considered a rationale for changes -- changes that can significantly degrade the PVE experience. Cries for nerfs often get nerfs -- one should really be more considerate of other players and classes before doing this.

2. Some have justified pushing for a nerf because "arcanes should cause more damage". They already DO -- by a considerable margin. Arcanes run circles around divines in terms of damage output, no matter how you measure it -- total damage, damage per SP, and in the variety of damage spells. In all sincerity, if you have an arcane caster who can be out-damaged by a divine caster (with the possible exception of a radiant servant in an undead-only quest), then you probably should reroll. If OTOH your argument isn't merely that arcanes should cause MORE damage, but rather that "arcanes damage, divines heal, period" and thus divines should cause no meaningful damage at all, then I'm not going to waste time responding to such a narrow-minded, pigeon-holing point of view.

3. Sure, DP is good damage, but it really soaks up SP to get it that point. To get the numbers some people are quoting, you need to max it out, stack it, and get lucky with the crown of retribution. It takes time to get to that point, and it is costly enough to have to reserve it for boss situations.

4. Some have justified the call to nerf by pointing out how much more damaging it is than other divine single-target spells. You mean a 3rd level spell that caps out at 5 dice of damage? If anything, the comparison speaks to just how crappy most other divine damaging spells are.

5. To AD's point about the melee vs caster comparison. It's a fair point, but IMO it mainly concerns endgame, where divines are once again crippled in terms of DC's. A solid build, a pure cleric or FVS with maxxed out wisdom, build points, shroud item, +3 tome is still going to come up short on endgame DC's (now that epic saves have gone back up) -- and remember, the SP cost means this isn't going to be able to be used on every trash mob -- it needs to be reserved for the tougher ones (mostly bosses). If you're going to add a save, you might as well not bother, and simpy halve the damage. And you're right back with the same problem -- caster and melee clerics doing the same spell damage (because both DC's are too low). IMO, the solution to your point lies not in giving DP a save, but in allowing options for more divine casters (and not just the rarest builds/equipped) to get DC's that actually mean something at endgame.

[Solmage]

Golems do. It was barely scratching the paint on clay golems, and my poor predator gun was only hitting for 15.

Ahh, good to know, but then golems now seem to get scratched by elements too, I suppose it's better than being immune..

Sure, light works on nearly everything, but hell, so does electricity. Only demons and flesh golems are immune to it.

Abbot Elite, Wiz king Epic (and well, sorjek, but I don't run that one anymore, but at one point I did, and would on a new character without epic handmedowns)

Anyway, in retrospective, even if the spell is a bit more powerful than the arcane variations, it should stay the way it is, because it's true that offensive FvS evokers do have less useful spells to evoke with, so this should compensate a little bit. (In any case I'd have only supported a very minor tweak, but now believe it's unnecessary)

[TheKaige]

For 19 AP, a Wiz/Sorc can take Element Manipulation VII, Deadly Element IV, and Element Crit Chance VI, which gives +50% damage, a base 9% critical rate, and a crit multiplier of 225%.

That's not including things like the Sorc capstone, savant boosts, major lore, etc.

For 22 AP, a Cleric/FvS can take Smiting IV, Prayer Of Smiting III, and Incredible Smiting III, which gives +40% damage, a base 9% critical rate, and a crit multiplier of 225%.

So maybe the problem is that they need to hurry up and change the Divine spell enhancements lines the way they did the Arcane ones.

The gear gap will be fixed well enough once crafting gets rolling.

1 spell should not be compared to another based on secondary statistics;

Arguing that the Sorc capstone justifies a Divine damage spell being better than a Arcane damage spell is like arguing that since Clerics get Divine Intervention, Sorcerers should get raise dead.

Arguing that Sorc Savants justifies a Divine damage spell being better than a Arcane damage spell is like arguing that since Radiant Servants get boosts to their healing, Sorcerers should be able to cast healing spells.

By the enhancement logic, it would be okay if Arcanes were given heals, since they have no enhancements to modify them with.

I LOVE the idea of this spell; giving clerics some meaningful DPS to contribute to a group, and the no-save effect means it's useful against Raid bosses (Which is why it should not have a save) ; My main is a cleric, and none of my alts are Arcanes, because I hate playing Arcanes. HOWEVER, Arcanes are, in every way, supposed to outshine Divines in terms of spell DPS; that's why they don't do spiffy things like heal and ressurect.

I don't want a large nerf to this spell; so much as losing the 1d6 and reducing it to 1/level would be acceptable; but Divine damage spells should not = Arcane damage spells, and this one is, for the most part, better than it's arcane equivalents.

[AylinIsAwesome]

And the availability of gear should determine the actual value of a spell?

Besides, 1. As soon as crafting reaches level 75, there will be 75% clickies for light and 2. It's pretty easy to get an Arcane Lore item, and Greater Arcane Lore items do very much exist.

So maybe the problem is that they need to hurry up and change the Divine spell enhancements lines the way they did the Arcane ones.

The gear gap will be fixed well enough once crafting gets rolling.

1 spell should not be compared to another based on secondary statistics;

Arguing that the Sorc capstone justifies a Divine damage spell being better than a Arcane damage spell is like arguing that since Clerics get Divine Intervention, Sorcerers should get raise dead.

Arguing that Sorc Savants justifies a Divine damage spell being better than a Arcane damage spell is like arguing that since Radiant Servants get boosts to their healing, Sorcerers should be able to cast healing spells.

By the enhancement logic, it would be okay if Arcanes were given heals, since they have no enhancements to modify them with.

I LOVE the idea of this spell; giving clerics some meaningful DPS to contribute to a group, and the no-save effect means it's useful against Raid bosses (Which is why it should not have a save) ; My main is a cleric, and none of my alts are Arcanes, because I hate playing Arcanes. HOWEVER, Arcanes are, in every way, supposed to outshine Divines in terms of spell DPS; that's why they don't do spiffy things like heal and ressurect.

I don't want a large nerf to this spell; so much as losing the 1d6 and reducing it to 1/level would be acceptable; but Divine damage spells should not = Arcane damage spells, and this one is, for the most part, better than it's arcane equivalents.

Divine Punishment is the first divine spell capable of being used to DPS bosses. Even if it's slightly better than the two Arcane versions (which I honestly doubt), how many other spells do arcanes have that can be used for DPS?

Arcanes still outshine divines in spell DPS. This spell doesn't change that; it just means that now divines can actually contribute to spell DPS now, instead of just with healing and melee in boss fights. The spell does not need a nerf.

[Matuse]

The reason I want it nerfed is not because of Arcane vs Divine balance, but caster FVS vs healer/melee FVS. The Divine Punishment DPS is identical regardless of your wisdom, spell focus feats, and spell focus items.

A caster-spec Cleric/FVS should have better spellcasting DPS against bosses than someone with 8 wis, but they pretty much don't.

Specious, since caster-spec will be considerably better. They'll have a heavier investment in the smiting line. They won't blink at using a Potency/Arcane Lore item when casting, where a melee would have to swap weapons and reduce their hitting DPS. They'll be able to more effectively use the non-Divine Punishment spells which -do- have saves. Melee souls will most likely not have Empower and Maximize. They might not have either.

Melee FvS might be going into AoV now, because it's the only game in town. But that will change when the melee focused PrE comes out. Losing AoV II and it's bare pre-reqs means a melee soul's Divine Punishment will be doing 70(!)% less damage than a caster (that's bare minimum...if the melee PrE requires taking say...weapon focus, then that's one less feat to invest in a metamagic). If Divine Punishment is nerfed now, you want to care to place a bet that it will be restored later? You could just hand over the money now and save the wait.

1 spell should not be compared to another based on secondary statistics;

One spell should be compared to another very similar spell based on the entire class using it, not just the base stats of the spell itself. Spells are not cast in a vacuum.

Arguing that the Sorc capstone justifies a Divine damage spell being better than a Arcane damage spell is like arguing that since Clerics get Divine Intervention, Sorcerers should get raise dead.

Logical fault, since DI does nothing which impinges on any Sorcerer ability.

Arguing that Sorc Savants justifies a Divine damage spell being better than a Arcane damage spell is like arguing that since Radiant Servants get boosts to their healing, Sorcerers should be able to cast healing spells.

1) Sorcs do, even if they can only be used on Warforged.
2) Your is-as-to correlations are really quite horrifically bad. Comparing two damage spells is nowhere even vaguely close to granting an entirely new ability to a class.

By the enhancement logic, it would be okay if Arcanes were given heals, since they have no enhancements to modify them with.

They do, and they do.

Also, damage spells for divines is NOT A NEW THING. You seem to be under the impression that divine casters had no way to hurt enemies before. Let me assure you that your impression is false. Divine Punishment is not some brand new branch of divine magic which never existed before. It is not equivalent to giving Arcanes the ability to raise dead. It is not equivalent to giving Arcanes the ability to cast the Heal spell. It is not equivalent to giving Divines the ability to group teleport the party.

Please stop comparing apples to street signs. They're nothing alike. At least oranges are still fruit.

HOWEVER, Arcanes are, in every way, supposed to outshine Divines in terms of spell DPS; that's why they don't do spiffy things like heal and ressurect.

They do. Divine Punishment doesn't even come within a country mile of the arcane equivalents. Why? Because we look at the WHOLE CLASS, not just the base stats of the spell. Yes, light damage has a slightly broader range of effective targets than any one arcane element (except Force). So what? Arcanes are not limited to one element. If you're an air savant and your lightning bolt is not working on epic Raiyum, then you've probably invested in the Force line. Pimp-slap him with disintegrate. Or meteor swarm. Both of those are boosted by Force.

[sirgog]

I really don't like the way this spell does not scale with Wisdom at all.

I'd prefer each tick allowed a save for half damage, but to compensate for that the spell deals more damage.

It felt wrong that on Lamannia when I tested this spell (my FVS is earning past lives at the moment and so I can't use it on Live). I was as effective with this spell as a non-melee build would be, except that the non melee might have Empower Spell instead of my Empower Healing.

Add a save to it (and increase damage to compensate) and DP would become a viable alternative to swinging a Sword of Shadow. As it is, it works best as a compliment to the (e)SoS rather than as a replacement for it.



My FvS's 14 DC Bladebarrier is significantly worse than the 38 DC BB's many other FvS's rock - I think the same should be true of this spell too. Their 38 DC should mean something, and dumping Wisdom should be a sacrifice, not a clear best decision on a FvS.

[HarveyMilk]

As usual, I completely agree with Sirgog.

Adding wis mod to dmg would be fun boost. That way dumped wis builds would get a minus, while max wis gets a boost.

[tekkentroop]

Not all Clerics and FVs will see these high numbers--How many Clerics will dump RS/Healing lines for full smiting lines? How many Melee FVS will have the room for full smiting lines? How many will have the gear to not only amplify, but recharge the SP to pay for it if they are a Wis Based FVS or Cleric?

I am a TR'd cleric Fully specc'd ehancement wise in smiting with Eardweller, mostly my stacks hit for 400-900--unless of course there is an Arcane around, then I can't get more than one on a non boss mob All these clerics who stand around in raids with their Stonemeld plates and a shield, are not going to get the same numbers until they play awhile and get the gear.

Just to show and example from the lower spectrum of clerics... my lvl 16/1 battlecleric (maximize and sup potency, but no smiting or empower) does a bit more than 60 damage per tic (would be 180-200 stacked?), with no crit chance since I dont have access to arcane lore yet. Its nice as a ranged option to get rid of perched archers etc, but against other mobs Id rather use melee or a blade barrier.

[fuzzy1guy]

I spent alot of time hearing just how awesome a non healing fvs was... Comming from playing casters i finally broke down and started a fvs..

And really all i can say is all those people who said it was awesome were either insane, or had never played a capable arcane at all. Cuz it was ****. fvs got some dmg. but not nearly enough sp to back it up. no way no how. favored of the gods? no freakin way. sorc or wizard does it all better. Vastly better damage. vastly better options. Excellent single target healing. All the fvs had was group healing really. Put the higher mass cures and mass heal scrolls in the stores and fvs would be damm useless compared to a sorc or a wizard. Stick BB scrolls in there too and kiss most fvs goodbye.. lol



This spell (and the sp changes) are the first thing that make me think a casting fvs MIGHT actually be worth doing now. They still lack a whole lot for being divine favored of the gods casters that costed money or 2500 favor to get... But this is at least a TINY step in the right direction finally.

And ppl want it nerfed... crazy. And it seems most of the hate is comming from ppl who don't play it. Don't use it. And just want to complain about what other people are doing.. it's so crazy. I hope to hell nobody at turbine actually listens to this insane stuff.


If ANYTHING... They should just move this spell over to the fvs line alone. Give clerics something else. On a fvs this type of damage spell fits real nice. And fills a gap for a single target spell worth a damm. They still lack a ton to be divine equivlants of sorc... But it's a start finally.

[sweez]

I really don't like the way this spell does not scale with Wisdom at all.

I'd prefer each tick allowed a save for half damage, but to compensate for that the spell deals more damage.

It felt wrong that on Lamannia when I tested this spell (my FVS is earning past lives at the moment and so I can't use it on Live). I was as effective with this spell as a non-melee build would be, except that the non melee might have Empower Spell instead of my Empower Healing.

Add a save to it (and increase damage to compensate) and DP would become a viable alternative to swinging a Sword of Shadow. As it is, it works best as a compliment to the (e)SoS rather than as a replacement for it.



My FvS's 14 DC Bladebarrier is significantly worse than the 38 DC BB's many other FvS's rock - I think the same should be true of this spell too. Their 38 DC should mean something, and dumping Wisdom should be a sacrifice, not a clear best decision on a FvS.

Problem with this is - which save should it target? If it targets reflex, it becomes very weak against archer-type mobs, against which it's very good now if you don't want to waste energy drains to instakill them. If it targets fort, it becomes much weaker against a lot of bosses, and evokers become healbots in many boss-fights again. If it targets will, it becomes almost useless against caster-type mobs that cast deathward, against which BB and instakills don't work and DP is the only real choice.

[justagame]

Problem with this is - which save should it target? If it targets reflex, it becomes very weak against archer-type mobs, against which it's very good now if you don't want to waste energy drains to instakill them. If it targets fort, it becomes much weaker against a lot of bosses, and evokers become healbots in many boss-fights again. If it targets will, it becomes almost useless against caster-type mobs that cast deathward, against which BB and instakills don't work and DP is the only real choice.

Exactly. Which is why I can't believe we're even discussing this. For crying out loud, single-target divine damage, and boss damage, has been virtually nonexistent until now. And now within a couple of days of getting finally getting a viable option (and a SP-intensive one at that), there are cries to nerf it.

Given that it is the one thing that's useful against late-game/end-game bosses, if you want to put a save on it, you might as well just cut the base damage of the spell in half, and not bother with the save. And at that point, seriously, why bother with it at all, just declare "divines shalt not do meaningful boss / single-target damage" and tell them all to just shut up and save their sp for healing.

[PeWBOOMPeW]

I actually spent a little while figuring out the MAX i could do with divine punishment. It came out to 6177.6. Every 2 seconds. For 16 seconds, assuming you can crit 8 times.

That was including
-Full Smiting and Criticals
-Eardweller
-Empower+Maximize
-Full FvS vulnerability
-Superior Potency
-Using it on a Vampire PM.
The only way i can think of to get it higher is if that Vampire is helpless, which I don't believe they can be from immunities, and the Potion of Irian's Light, which gives twice as much as potency.

[Matuse]

Realistically, x2 stacking is the best you're going to see. It would only be a VERY rare circumstance where it goes higher, and certainly no vampire is going to do it. They spend too much time doing freako vampire stuff, and not a whole lot of attacking you at high speed.

In fact, about the only monster who might reach x5 is going to be a Marilith (all 3 of them in the game) because they get 6 attacks each time.

[78mackson]

Anything that makes people play cleric/FVS is a good thing. 95% of all LFMs Ive seen is looking for "healors"..

As far as I'm concerned they can give em more toys to play with as long as that do not eradicate the need for some solid DPS-monkeys.

[moops]

Divine Punishment is the first divine spell capable of being used to DPS bosses. Even if it's slightly better than the two Arcane versions (which I honestly doubt), how many other spells do arcanes have that can be used for DPS?

Arcanes still outshine divines in spell DPS. This spell doesn't change that; it just means that now divines can actually contribute to spell DPS now, instead of just with healing and melee in boss fights. The spell does not need a nerf.

Umm. . .Harm? Searing Light? CometFall? Heal? Firestorm?

OP
I land 400- 1200 Pt harms all the time ( low end is 142), Heals on undead Ive seen 2500 pts of damage.

Since my Smiting line is maxed with Eardweller I do 300-900 pt Searing Light depending on Boss/mob.

Firestrom and Mass inflict Crtiical wounds have been my new faves for the past few months--seeing as high as 900 with Firestrom to multiple mobs, and as high as 200-600 with inflict Critical on multiple mobs. I like these in Epics where Im not using Baldaebarrier because the mobs are held or webbed, etc.

So I suppose these should be reduced as well? I worked hard to make my Cleric do some great DPS--one cant just log on and roll a Cleric and do this DPS--some of my gear took me over a year to get, BUT an arcane will always outshine me, and even when offensive casting clerics get pres, they will still do more damage, as well as have more SP to use since I still heal.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Umm. . .Harm?

Honestly haven't used this one, so I can't comment here.

Searing Light?

Is pretty pitiful damage.

CometFall?

It does hit for an ok amount, but with being Maximized, Empowered, and Quickened, it's a pretty heavy SP drain. Especially since it has a save...

Heal?

Isn't a DPS spell except against the Abbot and Rayium, and is subject to both Spell Resistance and a Save.

Firestorm?

Many raid bosses are either flat-out immune or have high resistance to it, plus it has a targeting bug.

[moops]

Honestly haven't used this one, so I can't comment here.



Is pretty pitiful damage.



It does hit for an ok amount, but with being Maximized, Empowered, and Quickened, it's a pretty heavy SP drain. Especially since it has a save...



Isn't a DPS spell except against the Abbot and Rayium, and is subject to both Spell Resistance and a Save.



Many raid bosses are either flat-out immune or have high resistance to it, plus it has a targeting bug.

There are more bosses than just raid bosses.

If your specc'd for Smiting Searing Light is OK when you add to other spells in your arsenal and put it in the cycle, as well as if you have clickies, spell pen, focus feats and gear for other spells they are very viable options. My Spell Pen is 31-32.
Heal and all healing spells are very useful DPS for taking guildies through S.O.S, and yes, Wiz King Bosses, and Inspiration Center in IQ--all of which I still to to help guildies with XP/Loot. Soling Sins I like to use it on the Cinderspawn since he can take forever to move sometimes. Its nice not to be a one trick pony, and to be able to have different spells for different bosses.


I dont even use Empower to get the numbers that I do. . .Its all what one wants to build for. ..