Clr/FvS: Does divine punishment do too much damage?

[azrael4h]

Most caster-focused FvS also had to dump AP's into smiting, which they, for the most part, ignored previously. So that's a wash.

I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm asking for a reality check on the damage that esos WF FvS can pump out now, along with a buff for higher wis FvS.

Then stop asking for an unneeded nerf out of a sheer jealous rage and need to be the "uber leetest" and start asking for what every REAL divine caster player has been for a long time; more offensive spell options, across the board at all levels (other than 6, which is already tight). There is an absence of offensive magic in the Divine repertoire, in DDO, which is NOT there in PnP.

That eSoS using WF with 6 WIS has already lost out on Implosion, Destruction, Command/Greater Command, Symbol of Stunning, and so forth. They have sacrificed considerable strength on their Blade Barriers as well, as evasion mobs WILL save 95% of the time, and even those mobs with weak reflex saves save a good chunk of the time.

The fact is, saying that a WiS-dumped FvS or Cleric sacrifice nothing in spells for doing so is an absolute lie. They lose out on their two primary AoE spells, their few insta-kills, and all of their crowd control. They become nothing but healbots and buffbots with their spell points. Divine Punishment the only spell which they have which is both mana efficient to an extent and is actually effective. The rest of the smiting line does paltry damage, even Searing Light, and the alignment spells are no better.

The spell is balanced fine as it is; it is too expensive an option to sustain those high dps numbers for long, and unless you're gimp you have other objectives in raids as well. If you are gimp, then you won't be able to run very many raids after awhile. What would "balance" it in terms of your jealousy is the addition of more offensive spells for divine casters, that use a save for effect.

[Kza]

Really nice its another good offensive spell, and at a lvl (5) where you easy have room. More fun good spells for arcanes and divines! (and bards ofc)

Soloed bastion and invasion on hard. On my non tr drow soul, this spell helped nicely against standing still oponents where the bladebarrier didnt work. Suddenly i dont feel that my build are just "gimp" vs a melee fvs :-). Lovely change. And it cost quite much mana max/emp/quickened so i dont see it op at all.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

How about something like this. Instead of (d6 + 1 per caster level) in damage, change it to (d8 +1 per 2 caster levels, + wisdom mod) in damage. Total damage would be similar for caster specs to what it is now, but would be cut significantly for Lord of Blades types.

But honestly I don't see it as a problem to leave it the way it is. So what if melee FvS do more boss DPS than caster types? Offensive casters will still rule trash clearing. Melees have always been better at boss DPS - who cares if it remains so? The point is that caster types are now actually able to contribute to boss DPS, and I love that. I'm not envious of my melee spec brethren.

[Matuse]

So what if melee FvS do more boss DPS than caster types?

Uh, Arcanes vs bosses make Divine Punishment look like kicking a tank in the treads while wearing flip-flops.

They have THREE stacking DoTs, each of them better than Divine Punishment is, and with better enhancements and class abilities to them. That's just the DoTs. Stick things like Polar Ray on top of it, and Divine Punishment damage isn't even a blip.

[orakio]

How about something like this. Instead of (d6 + 1 per caster level) in damage, change it to (d8 +1 per 2 caster levels, + wisdom mod) in damage. Total damage would be similar for caster specs to what it is now, but would be cut significantly for Lord of Blades types.

But honestly I don't see it as a problem to leave it the way it is. So what if melee FvS do more boss DPS than caster types? Offensive casters will still rule trash clearing. Melees have always been better at boss DPS - who cares if it remains so? The point is that caster types are now actually able to contribute to boss DPS, and I love that. I'm not envious of my melee spec brethren.

Where is the basis for the stat scaling the damage on the spell? No other spell in DDO functions like that, no spell in the PnP versions of D&D that DDO is based on function like that. Spell is fine, does less pre-resists than arcane equiv's and costs more mana. Balance of the spell has already been addressed and the spell itself will be less potent for wis-dump builds as soon as an actual melee PrE comes in and they lose huge chunks of the smiting line.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Uh, Arcanes vs bosses make Divine Punishment look like kicking a tank in the treads while wearing flip-flops.

They have THREE stacking DoTs, each of them better than Divine Punishment is, and with better enhancements and class abilities to them. That's just the DoTs. Stick things like Polar Ray on top of it, and Divine Punishment damage isn't even a blip.

Uh, nowhere did I mention arcanes. I was referring to caster spec divines. Having to type out "caster spec divines" every time is tedious and should be unnecessary given the context of my post. How divine classes or the spell itself compare to arcane abilities is utterly irrelevant to me. I hate playing arcanes but I love my FvS.

Where is the basis for the stat scaling the damage on the spell? No other spell in DDO functions like that, no spell in the PnP versions of D&D that DDO is based on function like that. Spell is fine, does less pre-resists than arcane equiv's and costs more mana. Balance of the spell has already been addressed and the spell itself will be less potent for wis-dump builds as soon as an actual melee PrE comes in and they lose huge chunks of the smiting line.

I love how people read the first sentence of a post and jump all over it without even reading the rest. I stated that I see no actual reason to change the spell. But if those whining do get their way, I would like it changed in such a way that "caster spec divines" do not lose anything from where they stand now. If doing so means making the spell function a little bit differently than spells in PnP, so be it. This isn't PnP, this is DDO. If there's a better way that follows PnP guidelines then great, but I'm not interested in being nerfed just so somebody can say "Well, at least the behind-the-scenes calculations are happening in a way similar to some PnP spells in a rule book someplace".

[Matuse]

Uh, nowhere did I mention arcanes. I was referring to caster spec divines. Having to type out "caster spec divines" every time is tedious and should be unnecessary given the context of my post. How divine classes or the spell itself compare to arcane abilities is utterly irrelevant to me.

Sorry, I misread. I saw "FvS vs caster types", and my eyeballs slid right over the "melee" part of the FvS. Divine Punishment vs Arcanes has been brought up several times before.

[Habreno]

Uh, Arcanes vs bosses make Divine Punishment look like kicking a tank in the treads while wearing flip-flops.

They have THREE stacking DoTs, each of them better than Divine Punishment is, and with better enhancements and class abilities to them. That's just the DoTs. Stick things like Polar Ray on top of it, and Divine Punishment damage isn't even a blip.

And I have PULLED AGGRO OFF Arcanes with the spell and Searing Light combined in Elite Chronoscope against the end boss Abashi. Just with a Maximized triple stack of the DoT and Searing Light I was grabbing aggro from Arcanes. I'm glad we FINALLY have a use for the smiting line.

[voodoogroves]

And I have PULLED AGGRO OFF Arcanes with the spell and Searing Light combined in Elite Chronoscope against the end boss Abashi. Just with a Maximized triple stack of the DoT and Searing Light I was grabbing aggro from Arcanes. I'm glad we FINALLY have a use for the smiting line.

Probably what you had there was the Arcanes not really stacking as diligently.

Or, perhaps, the arcanes were set up for the wrong DoT. Light is nice in that it is generally useful and non-resisted ... but you're not going to be able to give it the adders that, say, a Savant can to their line. There's no way you can match the numerical values that, for instance, an Earth Savant can when he tosses on the vulnerability and starts stacking multiple DoTs ... and even better, throws in some of their non-earth DoTs.

But ... if they are dealing with a boss with huge resistances / immunities or are simply conserving their SP and holding back or are just not being as quick fingered, I can see how you would.

[Habreno]

Not sure why you'd hold back as a 20 arcane in an 8 quest against a 17 boss (if I recall the CR correctly) but perhaps. The Abashi probably has many strong resistances.

[Shamurai]

I'm not sure where you're seeing 900+ pt Divine Punishments... I've been using my 20 FvS quite a bit and haven't had anything near 900 pts per cast... with 3 stacked and as "pumped" as a slightly above average 32 pt toon can be I'm getting at best 400(ish) with all the ticks I'm quite sure that isn't going to steal a lot aggro from the 2000 pt polar rays my 28 pt sorc throws, or the fairly massive dps my kensai khopesh fighter deals.

Sure there are some Divines that can post 900+ point Divinve Punishments (I spose) as is indicated here in the forums.. but those are the UBER Divines that are probably running with UBER Guildmates that are surely still out DPS'ing them anyway.

Either way this is just yet another of those ... "Timmy's doing better than me, so make him stop!" posts. Sheesh. I for one have no problem completing Part IV in one round because people are doing more damage than they used to...

Wow I think that's two, "rantish" posts for me in one day.. I really shouldn't go on the forums when I don't feel good and have a slight fever..

[Habreno]

While I see 900 being *possible* I have done about 650 crits on a triple stack. I still have yet to add in Empower and another 25% from a Superior "whatever" that affects light spells (clicky) plus the fourth tier in light damage from AP and I believe 2.25 x crits vs 2.0 x crits. I'll look later.

[Matuse]

My best was earlier, doing DQ1 on Hard, I just shield blocked Lailat and let her quintuple stack herself with the vulnerability curse, and a triple stacked DP hit 1263. At least, that's what it showed up as over her head. Oddly, the combat log only showed 600-something.

Lailat and her Marilith sisters are probably the only monsters you can quintuple stack the curse on. No other monster hits as many times in a given time frame.

Also, I found that epic Crateos is immune to light, even with a double stack curse. Annoying.

[orakio]

I love how people read the first sentence of a post and jump all over it without even reading the rest. I stated that I see no actual reason to change the spell. But if those whining do get their way, I would like it changed in such a way that "caster spec divines" do not lose anything from where they stand now. If doing so means making the spell function a little bit differently than spells in PnP, so be it. This isn't PnP, this is DDO. If there's a better way that follows PnP guidelines then great, but I'm not interested in being nerfed just so somebody can say "Well, at least the behind-the-scenes calculations are happening in a way similar to some PnP spells in a rule book someplace".

I apologize that the post seemed hostile to you, that was not my intention. The point of my response though was your suggestion of basing damage partially on wis had already been mentioned and the argument i gave was the same one used before as well. There is no need for stat based casting especially for only 1 spell in the game that functions exactly the same as 2 other spells with the only difference being damage type.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Sorry, I misread. I saw "FvS vs caster types", and my eyeballs slid right over the "melee" part of the FvS. Divine Punishment vs Arcanes has been brought up several times before.

Gotcha. Well, I guess I could have been clearer. Divine casters are all I was talking about.

I apologize that the post seemed hostile to you, that was not my intention. The point of my response though was your suggestion of basing damage partially on wis had already been mentioned and the argument i gave was the same one used before as well. There is no need for stat based casting especially for only 1 spell in the game that functions exactly the same as 2 other spells with the only difference being damage type.

Understood and I agree. There is no need for a change at all. But if they are so rash as to change it, I'd rather they did it in a way that leaves divine caster types untouched instead of doing it in a way that nerfs them at all. Making spells that behave predictably and similarly is a good thing, but if doing so would require hurting the position of divine casters relative to where they are now then I'm in favor of breaking with tradition. Making DP behave differently from other spells either in DDO or PnP wouldn't matter much to me in that case as long as the end result is the same for divine casters.

I was pretty tired when I replied, so my apologies if I seemed short with either of you.

[Gratch]

And I have PULLED AGGRO OFF Arcanes with the spell and Searing Light combined in Elite Chronoscope against the end boss Abashi. Just with a Maximized triple stack of the DoT and Searing Light I was grabbing aggro from Arcanes. I'm glad we FINALLY have a use for the smiting line.

Oops... Nvm... Elite Chronoscope. Makes more sense. Questions removed. I forget that raid has a nonEpic setting.

[Habreno]

Oops... Nvm... Elite Chronoscope. Makes more sense. Questions removed. I forget that raid has a nonEpic setting.

Rofl. Non-Epic setting. xD

Ran it for favor and kicks. Epic I'd be healing but I pulled the guy around the arena running backwards while stacking the DoT on it. Melees didn't mind as I was doing about 150 damage a second with near 300 ticks triple stacked and they ran with it meleeing while it chased me. Went down pretty quick.

[Sarisa]

I've been testing this spell quite a bit over the past week on my Cleric, since the update. It really shines in certain boss fights, some described below.

Sins of Attrition - I've solo'ed this regularly for about six months now, and these are what I found different after the u9 spell changes. I use a bit more SP in the initial area, due to non-extendable BB's. The Cinderspawn is faster to take down with my Greensteel triple positive Quarterstaff than it is to circle kite him through BB's or heal him to death.

I use slightly more SP than before in the Saligia fight. Before, I would toss a few extended BB's and then I'd play "Bennie Hill" and just run him around. Now, I toss one or two BB's to take out the trash, then concentrate on getting a triple stack with Divine Punishment. If Saligia is an Orthon, I keep the BB's up. If he's the Green Devil, I don't bother with the BB's (before I would smack him around with a Maladroit weapon to lower his reflex) and just keep the Divine Punishment going. Beat on him with my Dreamspitter between casts.

The remaining ambushes/trash fights go about the same way as before. On hard, I might need an extra BB cast to take all the Orthons who insist on pew-pew'ing me down, but I gain so much SP that it really doesn't matter.

Cenodoxus (taking the badge) is just as easy as before, he just goes down faster now that Divine Punishment adds on to my damage. Before, I would do no damage besides an occasional cometfall/searing light when he chained me, and now I have DP to pulse.

New Invasion - Ran this with a guildmember who is still working on his equipment. He did a good job, just wasn't really equipped for high DR bosses yet. DP allowed me to keep constant pressure on the boss to counteract his fast regeneration, and just made it easier all around to take him out. The SP cost of this fight went up considerably, since I have something else costly to cast while also healing.

Dreaming Dark - Saw an LFM asking for help with the boss, and since I had a free moment went to help him. He wiped on the boss, was not expecting the Living Nightmares to block his hireling's healing. I went in, BB kited the nightmares while raising him and his hireling. I was hoping he would be able to regain aggro but the Devourer would not change his mind (even with me shield blocking). When the next batch of Nightmares spawned, I just decided to take out the boss myself, and Divine Punishment was the all-star in this fight. It's constant pressure, which is good in a fight where the boss doesn't move through BB's as much as you would hope. DP in my opinion made that fight something I could solo where I could not have done so easily before.

New Chain (Harbinger of Madness) - DP just simply made those fights faster than without, nothing much besides that. It was nice to have a spell I can just cast every 10 seconds on a low threat boss and concentrate more on the more dangerous adds.

Comparing to my wizard:
My wizard is an 18/2 rogue splash, CC spec'ed archmage. I have some epic gear, but nothing terribly impressive, and nothing that really gives me a big advantage over any other splashed wizard. I redid my enhancements, but kept most of my spec in CC rather than raw damage. My wizard, even without that great of damage, still outdamages my much better equipped Cleric in any boss fight situation, even with my cleric unloading all her damaging spells at the boss in addition to DP. The wizard has many more spells available, with higher damage potential, and multiple stacking DOT's. Divine Power is quite strong, but still nothing compared to what a weak wizard can do. If my Cleric were a FvS, and I managed to get a few aura stacks going, then DP along with Searing Light, Cometfall, and Firestorm COULD match up to my wizard. An Evoker Archmage or a Pale Master unloading their SP (and HP) at a boss just does so much more. A Sorcerer just blows everyone away.

[Habreno]

To let you know:

I have 30% boost to light/alignment spells from APs.
I have a 9% crit chance and a 2.25 percent multiplier. I also have Arcane Lore on a wielded item (Epic Ornamented Dagger, Tier 3)
I have Superior Potency VII from said dagger.
I have Maximize, but not Empower, toggled.

I still need another 10% extra from APs and Empower to go. Also have to try and get a +75% clicky for light spells; don't think one exists yet.

I believe the highest number I have seen was 650 or so on a triple-stack crit.

[Sanguine_J3S3]

To let you know:

I have 30% boost to light/alignment spells from APs.
I have a 9% crit chance and a 2.25 percent multiplier. I also have Arcane Lore on a wielded item (Epic Ornamented Dagger, Tier 3)
I have Superior Potency VII from said dagger.
I have Maximize, but not Empower, toggled.

I still need another 10% extra from APs and Empower to go. Also have to try and get a +75% clicky for light spells; don't think one exists yet.

I believe the highest number I have seen was 650 or so on a triple-stack crit.

AoV line +
Major lore (arcane lore + rahkir set) +
Eardweller +
Maximize + Empower +
Full smiting line +
Triple stack +
Crit =
1500-1800 (Highest i ve seen was exactly 1800 against lailat)