eSoS: End all be all?

[sirgog]

That's a problem with THF (and maybe TWF) then and should NOT be balanced by a single, hard to acquire, available only at level 20 weapon! I'm really tired of seeing this argument tossed out whenever someone suggests further nerfing the ESoS. What are all the THF characters doing between level 12 and 19? The 20s who have dozens and dozens of dragon completions without a shard or scroll?

I'm sorry, but this argument is simply invalid for this discussion.

eSOS also comes from the easiest two epics in the VON chain (seal from 1, shard from 6, base item 6).

Making it is easier than making pretty much any other epic item except Carnival chain epics.

[sephiroth1084]

eSOS also comes from the easiest two epics in the VON chain (seal from 1, shard from 6, base item 6).

Making it is easier than making pretty much any other epic item except Carnival chain epics.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment.

The quests are easy, yes, and at least VoN 6 is run pretty frequently, but the scroll is among the most expensive, while the seal, shard and even sword itself are all hotly contested items. I, for one, have somewhere around 80-100 epic dragon completions across my characters and yet have no shards to show for it, and no scroll either. No other VoN item is that hard to make, and no Carnival or Sentinels item. Some of the desert raid and explorer items are.

There is still also the matter of time. Easy or no, VoN 5 (normal) and 6 epic aren't short. Even with good groups you're typically looking at around an hour from the time you start forming the group to the time you finish your looting, and much of the time it is quite a bit longer than that, even. And I still run across the occasional failed attempt, most often on the bases.

In any case, what is it you are suggesting here, Numot? Should it be nerfed because it both overshadows every other 2-hander in the game while coming from quests without challenge? That it is fine to be the linchpin for the value of THF at endgame because it is easy enough to acquire for it to be assumed for everyone? I've run many quests and raids where I was the lone standout in a sea of ESoS wielders, but I'm also not typically running with the Khyberian mediocrity, either.

[Attropos]

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment.

The quests are easy, yes, and at least VoN 6 is run pretty frequently, but the scroll is among the most expensive, while the seal, shard and even sword itself are all hotly contested items. I, for one, have somewhere around 80-100 epic dragon completions across my characters and yet have no shards to show for it, and no scroll either. No other VoN item is that hard to make, and no Carnival or Sentinels item. Some of the desert raid and explorer items are.

There is still also the matter of time. Easy or no, VoN 5 (normal) and 6 epic aren't short. Even with good groups you're typically looking at around an hour from the time you start forming the group to the time you finish your looting, and much of the time it is quite a bit longer than that, even. And I still run across the occasional failed attempt, most often on the bases.

In any case, what is it you are suggesting here, Numot? Should it be nerfed because it both overshadows every other 2-hander in the game while coming from quests without challenge? That it is fine to be the linchpin for the value of THF at endgame because it is easy enough to acquire for it to be assumed for everyone? I've run many quests and raids where I was the lone standout in a sea of ESoS wielders, but I'm also not typically running with the Khyberian mediocrity, either .

You run with me :P

Rather than nerf THF's only weapon that can bring it to par with TWF, I would much rather see specialized two handers like the Ancient Vulkorim Dagger. There really aren't that many good two handed weapons, and there are a lot of places that they could expand to. No Epic Vorpal 2 Handers, no epic 2H banes, etc.

I think that the ESoS is fine for what it is: simply put, the best THF weapon overall. Seal and shard come from easy quests, but remember that you can only get the shard in the raid. With the exception of desert raid gear, the SoS is probably the hardest piece of gear to make (abashai sets are a little bit easier I think). The problem is that you have a chance at the shard 1/3 days per character, as opposed o 1 per day per character for most other gear.

[sephiroth1084]

You run with me :P

Not really supporting my statement here, noob.

Rather than nerf THF's only weapon that can bring it to par with TWF, I would much rather see specialized two handers like the Ancient Vulkorim Dagger. There really aren't that many good two handed weapons, and there are a lot of places that they could expand to. No Epic Vorpal 2 Handers, no epic 2H banes, etc.

I'd like to see some 2-handers similar to the AVD, but as I've shown elsewhere, the ESoS is soooo far ahead of everything else it's hard to make something that compares. For instance, I had suggested improving the Epic Hellstroke by adding Anarchic Burst and Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane (on top of it bypassing Lailat DR, gaining 6% doublestrike and Maiming), and it was still behind the ESoS vs. Lailat, despite the greatsword's not bypassing DR. Making a weapon that is truly competitive with the ESoS in the hands of a barbarian probably ends up being way ahead in the hands of everyone else since they are gaining less, typically, from the crit profile and more from weapon enhancements.

I think that the ESoS is fine for what it is: simply put, the best THF weapon overall. Seal and shard come from easy quests, but remember that you can only get the shard in the raid. With the exception of desert raid gear, the SoS is probably the hardest piece of gear to make (abashai sets are a little bit easier I think). The problem is that you have a chance at the shard 1/3 days per character, as opposed o 1 per day per character for most other gear.

I think this is a fair limiting factor in attaining it, but I dislike how much it stands above every other weapon in nearly every circumstance.

[Havok.cry]

my 2 cents:
no matter what they do unless something new is identical to eSOS then numbers will clearly tell that one is superior... there will ALWAYS be one that is superior. Nerfing eSOS will either cause something else to be clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers or still leave eSOS clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers. One your argument will still apply.. just to a different weapon, and two your argument will still apply to eSOS.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.... oh and using an inferior weapon makes the player more epic than using the best, simply because of adversity.

[fluffybunnywilson]

my 2 cents:
no matter what they do unless something new is identical to eSOS then numbers will clearly tell that one is superior... there will ALWAYS be one that is superior.

Turbine could choose to make a weapon that is superior to eSoS in some situations and inferior in others. I think that most people would like that.

I'm thinking of the difference between a MinII and a LitII as an example here. LitII is better for most characters against most enemies, but a MinII is still good against everything and is superior to LitII in a small number of very important encounters.

[sephiroth1084]

my 2 cents:
no matter what they do unless something new is identical to eSOS then numbers will clearly tell that one is superior... there will ALWAYS be one that is superior. Nerfing eSOS will either cause something else to be clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers or still leave eSOS clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers. One your argument will still apply.. just to a different weapon, and two your argument will still apply to eSOS.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.... oh and using an inferior weapon makes the player more epic than using the best, simply because of adversity.

In response to this assertion...

Turbine could choose to make a weapon that is superior to eSoS in some situations and inferior in others. I think that most people would like that.

I'm thinking of the difference between a MinII and a LitII as an example here. LitII is better for most characters against most enemies, but a MinII is still good against everything and is superior to LitII in a small number of very important encounters.

Notably, the Min II is superior to the Lit II in more situations, at least, than it is superior to the ESoS, though not by many. Lit II is also problematic, but less so, since it is more widely available and can be tailored to your particular character--dwarves and elves don't need to give up their racial bonuses, fighters aren't locked into selecting greatswords as their preferred 2-handed weapon, etc...

Ideally, a weapon that is so universally good should be weaker than one that is of specific utility. Compare the Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger to some other 1-handed weapon. Many weapons are better in many situations, but against giants, this weapon is peerless! The problem as it stands with the ESoS is that not even the narrowly-designed weapons are anywhere close to being as strong.

[fluffybunnywilson]

In response to this assertion...

Notably, the Min II is superior to the Lit II in more situations, at least, than it is superior to the ESoS, though not by many. Lit II is also problematic, but less so, since it is more widely available and can be tailored to your particular character--dwarves and elves don't need to give up their racial bonuses, fighters aren't locked into selecting greatswords as their preferred 2-handed weapon, etc...

Ideally, a weapon that is so universally good should be weaker than one that is of specific utility. Compare the Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger to some other 1-handed weapon. Many weapons are better in many situations, but against giants, this weapon is peerless! The problem as it stands with the ESoS is that not even the narrowly-designed weapons are anywhere close to being as strong.

100% agreed. Turbine can make weapons that are better than eSoS in narrow areas, but they do appear to have decided that they don't want to do so. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe that's a bad thing. I'm honestly not sure at this point.

[sephiroth1084]

100% agreed. Turbine can make weapons that are better than eSoS in narrow areas, but they do appear to have decided that they don't want to do so. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe that's a bad thing. I'm honestly not sure at this point.

Well, it's hard to balance right now with how wildly the ESoS's dominance varies based on base damage of the character. On top of that, at the high end it is so far ahead of every other weapon that making weapons that are simply better than that is likely more DPS growth than the devs want to put in our hands.

With a base damage of +45 (and +6 Seeker), a Lit II falchion does about 92.8 damage per swing, while the ESoS does about 102. An increase of about 7 damage per swing isn't huge, per se, but it's significant.

Meanwhile, with a base damage of +85 (and +6 Seeker) the Lit II does around 142.8 (up 50 points from the lower base damage, or an increase of 5 points of damage over what the change in base damage provides). The ESoS deals around 164, which is an increase of almost 20 points over the Lit II in the same hands and as much of an increase over the lower base damage was getting after removing the differences in base damage.

Adding another 2d6 base damage, 3d6 effect damage and 3d6 crit damage to the Lit II Falchion brings it even at 85 damage, and puts it at 114.7 at 45 base, which is a surge of 12 points of damage per swing.

Do you see why it's so **** difficult to balance anything against the ESoS? Adding a ton of extra damage to a weapon already loaded down with a bunch of bonus effects far outstrips the ESoS at lower base damage values (such as for a bard, FvS, cleric or a paladin with mediocre gear), while it just manages to break even at the high end with those bonuses. Anything done to improve another weapon for a barbarian by even a small margin will necessarily end up eclipsing the ESoS for the 2-handed melees at the lower end of the spectrum.

DR-breaking and fortification are a factor, to be sure, but we have more to worry about than bosses when choosing (and having designed) weapons.

[Failedlegend]

Ok at the risk of sounding like a noob I've never actually played a melee type high enough to even bother looking into the SoS or ESoS....whats so great about it? Iis it because of the 5D6? it must be cause thats the only effect on it over another Epic Two-Hander...actually beyond its slots and the 5d6 it has no other effect at all.


Note: Not being condescending im just totally blind to why its so uber...again never really played a melee before.

[sephiroth1084]

Ok at the risk of sounding like a noob I've never actually played a melee type high enough to even bother looking into the SoS or ESoS....whats so great about it? Iis it because of the 5D6? it must be cause thats the only effect on it over another Epic Two-Hander...actually beyond its slots and the 5d6 it has no other effect at all.


Note: Not being condescending im just totally blind to why its so uber...again never really played a melee before.

It has a +10 enhancement bonus, which is +4 to-hit over nearly every other weapon (not many +5 Greater Banes around) and +4 damage that gets multiplied on crits, which ends up being worth probably about as much as an elemental burst, except that this won't ever do just 1-3 damage.

It has 5d6 base damage, all of which gets multiplied on crits, which is worth considerably more than adding Holy and an element to a greatsword.

It then has a 15-20 threat range, like a falchion, but with a x3 multiplier attached. This is the biggest culprit, and is the reason that even the non-epic SoS can surpass the power of a Lightning Strike weapon.

Individually, any of the above would be pretty strong, but all together the effect is much greater than the sum of its parts.

[Failedlegend]

It has a +10 enhancement bonus, which is +4 to-hit over nearly every other weapon (not many +5 Greater Banes around) and +4 damage that gets multiplied on crits, which ends up being worth probably about as much as an elemental burst, except that this won't ever do just 1-3 damage.

It has 5d6 base damage, all of which gets multiplied on crits, which is worth considerably more than adding Holy and an element to a greatsword.

It then has a 15-20 threat range, like a falchion, but with a x3 multiplier attached. This is the biggest culprit, and is the reason that even the non-epic SoS can surpass the power of a Lightning Strike weapon.

Individually, any of the above would be pretty strong, but all together the effect is much greater than the sum of its parts.

Ah ok...makes sense...kinda boring though :P

[Havok.cry]

In response to this assertion...

Notably, the Min II is superior to the Lit II in more situations, at least, than it is superior to the ESoS, though not by many. Lit II is also problematic, but less so, since it is more widely available and can be tailored to your particular character--dwarves and elves don't need to give up their racial bonuses, fighters aren't locked into selecting greatswords as their preferred 2-handed weapon, etc...

Ideally, a weapon that is so universally good should be weaker than one that is of specific utility. Compare the Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger to some other 1-handed weapon. Many weapons are better in many situations, but against giants, this weapon is peerless! The problem as it stands with the ESoS is that not even the narrowly-designed weapons are anywhere close to being as strong.

Ok I think I'm on the same page as you, thank you for the clarification

[Shade]

eSOS also comes from the easiest two epics in the VON chain (seal from 1, shard from 6, base item 6).

Making it is easier than making pretty much any other epic item except Carnival chain epics.

lol.. QFE.

Sorry but your really out of touch on the difficult of acquiring things if you think that.

Theres a ton of reasons why the ESoS is among the HARDEST epics to get.
1. Requires 3 bound ingredients, where as most any non raid epic requires only 2 or at least very easy to get BTA items vs a rare btc item (sword, shard, seal)
2. EVERYONE wants it. Everyone. I've had freakin favored souls with 8 str bid 4 million plat for a shard. And yes he crafted on that char, and never TRd to a melee class, only plays casters.
3. Everyone wants not only the shard and seal, but the swords too.. As it's a useful twink item for anyone planning to TR, even non melee classes. Or ones with maxxed gear, at least from 10-12 before you get your GS weps.
4. VoN6 epic is not easy for most players. Last one I ran: severla players exclaimed excitment that we beat it , stating they failed the last 5 runs they attempted.

the only epics id put above it in difficulty of acquisition are Desert Rares.. Tho the comparions is pretty much: rares - plain impossible.. sword - expect to run 100+ epic von6, a smattering of von1-2.

Sure the seal is one of the easier ones, that does very little towards making the item easier then other epics tho. Most players actually get there seals in von6, as very few ppl run von1-4, and the droprate for the seal in von6 is pretty low.

Bottom line is, it's a very hard item to get, and its power accurately matches that rarity.. While other epic two handers are also hard to get, some evne harder (Epic xumm), yet there power doesn't match the difficulty to get.

[oberon131313]

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again.

Do you live in some alternate timestream where time moves faster than the rest of us?

The crystal lasts 100 hours of logged in time once slotted.

[Krag]

Bottom line is, it's a very hard item to get, and its power accurately matches that rarity.. While other epic two handers are also hard to get, some evne harder (Epic xumm), yet there power doesn't match the difficulty to get.

QFE
Other than RoSS I can't think of any desert item to accurately reflect the rarity. It varies from "decent but nothing spectacular" (Xuum, Torc, Chaosblade, Marilith Chain, Bloodstone) to "OMG, I have pulled better random loot when level cap was 10".

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Do you live in some alternate timestream where time moves faster than the rest of us?

The crystal lasts 100 hours of logged in time once slotted.

I don't care.

It's a gimmick.

It's exactly like what they used to do in Diablo 2. Every 3 months or so, if you didn't log on to one of your characters, it was deleted without a second thought. All of your hard work was wiped by the company because you forgot to play. Same basic concept.

To be more clear, I was referring to game time. The crystal can probably last an average of 2-4 real-time weeks, depending on how long it takes to run a raid or epic each day. It's still not guaranteed that you'll be able to loot the exact SAME crystal within the exact SAME month. In fact, it's a very low chance. You can't expect other, average people, to get lucky and find one like you did, either. Thus, it's an unreliable DR breaker that I don't factor into any damage calculations or testing.

It's nice to have and fun to play around with, and it will definitely give you a leg up in DPS against Pit Fiends, but it's still unreliable to find and temporary. I stand by that position.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

If you ever try to craft that +5 HB silver of GLOB, it will have a minimum level of 25 under the crafting system we currently have. Not sure if you have a character that can meet that requirement. I do not.

If you do, I'm glad you can read between the lines.

A maximum enchantment level of +5 now appears on all standard craftable item blanks. This level determines how much power a given item can hold when adding magical effects through crafting. The items can have their maximum enchantment level increased by crafting Shards of Potential.

Recipes exist in all three schools of crafting to create “Shards of Potential” of various strengths that can be applied to a crafting blank to increase its maximum enchantment level. Higher plus Shards of Potential are significantly more expensive to create than lower plus Shards of Potential.

[...]

Numerous treasure mutations have had their enchantment values lowered.

Yes, yes I am glad that I can read between the lines. Thank you.

I'd just like to point out the power of the developer: How they can adjust enchantment levels to fit into the max lvl 20 cap. How they can put the word BETA onto a crafting system and generate feedback for future ideas.

Like I was trying to say before, it only makes sense to eventually allow us to craft up to +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane since you can construct the shards. Since the lootgen item appears in the game. Since their ultimate goal is to get F2P players to generate gear equivalent to what P2P players can grind for in epics/raids.