eSoS: End all be all?

[Boromirs]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

[dkyle]

Slot a Crystal of Devil's Ruin and it's really a be all end all.

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane. You're looking at level 75-ish crafting level, and that's a ton of grinding. You'll probably get a MinII faster. +4 Holy Silver of Outsider Bane still beats a MinII, and will be a lot easier to make.

But as far as ESoS vs. LitII, there's not much reason to make a LitII if you can make an ESoS.

[DrNuegebauer]

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane.

What does Lailat think of this?

[dingal]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

ESOS is indeed the be-all-end-all for THF builds in most situations. Where it falls behind:

Elite TOD, Shroud, VOD due to extremely high DR and inability to bypass DR (This is alleviated if you're fortunate enough to have a devil's ruin)

Where it excels: Pretty much everywhere else. The thing absolutely destroys everything.

I'd recommend either A. Making a MinII Falchion or GA or an Epic Antique and slotting it with a Heaven's Light (or whatever its call).

If you plan to TR make the MinII so you'll have it at early levels. Shroud weapons obliterate everything below level 20. It's quite nice.

I still carry my LitII to beat on the training dummy and an antique for elite TOD etc.

[Narzic]

What does Lailat think of this?

if he has the crafting level and resources to make that, then i'm sure he could make a cold iron version as well.

[dingal]

What does Lailat think of this?

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

[Boromirs]

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

...bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

[sirgog]

What does Lailat think of this?

The eSOS blows a Min 2 (or comparable weapons like +5 Holy Cold Iron of Pure Good) out of the water on Lailat. It's not even close.

eSOS is just that good on 0 fortification bosses that only have 20 DR. Plus, against Lailat's quite high AC, +10 to-hit sometimes matters, especially if you haven't got a bard.

Someone did a test recently - if the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe was given Holy and also Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, it would STILL do less damage to eLailat than the eSOS. I'm not sure of their other assumptions (i.e. class, # of TWF feats, etc).


Just get a random lootgen +5 Holy Silver or similar for Elite Horoth and probably hard as well (depending upon your class and whether or not you have the THF feats). If later you want to TR, I recommend a Holy Goodburst 30% Healing Amp maul as the best all-around 12-19 weapon.

[Kinerd]

..bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

On the other hand, it's nice that the effort put into getting an eSoS is rewarded, and rewarded handsomely.

[dingal]

...bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

Epic Xuum is pretty damned awesome as well. It's only +6 but it has the same crit profile and a massive amount of fire damage to boot. I'd still go ESOS but the difference isn't as gigantic as one would think.

Additionally the ESOS is the best if you're trying to squeeze out every last possible drop of DPS but that in no way means you can't dish out a ton of DPS with a falchion or greataxe of your choice. Prior to Horcs coming out and starting to rule the roost with the massive Str bonus my Dwarf Barb was virtually always the main tank in TOD using his trusty LitII on normal and Antique on Hard or Elite. He started to fall behind in DPS to Horcs and had a harder time holding aggro and I TR;ed him into the same build but with higher str and DPS. I stayed that way until I got my ESOS and I never had any issues being main tank, leading kills in 99% of quests/raids I entered and having a great time.

The ESOS is no different than the Khopesh is for TWF in that those seeking absolute max DPS are going to use those weapons. Sure there are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to the khopesh but pretty much everyone that uses them is going to have a set of MinII's, maybe LitII's and/or Radiance II's and should they be so lucky, epic chaosblades as the ultimate weapon.

Look at the bright side, at least the ESOS is pretty **** cool looking.

[dingal]

The eSOS blows a Min 2 (or comparable weapons like +5 Holy Cold Iron of Pure Good) out of the water on Lailat. It's not even close.

eSOS is just that good on 0 fortification bosses that only have 20 DR. Plus, against Lailat's quite high AC, +10 to-hit sometimes matters, especially if you haven't got a bard.

Someone did a test recently - if the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe was given Holy and also Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, it would STILL do less damage to eLailat than the eSOS. I'm not sure of their other assumptions (i.e. class, # of TWF feats, etc).


Just get a random lootgen +5 Holy Silver or similar for Elite Horoth and probably hard as well (depending upon your class and whether or not you have the THF feats). If later you want to TR, I recommend a Holy Goodburst 30% Healing Amp maul as the best all-around 12-19 weapon.

Good to know, I never remove my ESOS in DQ or in pretty much any epic for that matter.

Even in Epic DA (I don't know the final bosses stats) I thought it would be prudent to use a DR breaker so I started with my antique and lost aggro. Re-equipped the ESOS and promptly took it right back and kept it the rest of the fight.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

All those people saying Epic Sword of Shadows is the end-all-be-all again don't know what they're talking about.

They don't seem to realize that to use this weapon as a DR breaker against devils and demons, they have to CONSTANTLY farm Augment crystals from Epic Devil Assault.

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again. It could take a day, a week, or a month to find another. You have no idea. You could buy another one, but that costs precious resources that are better spent finishing other epic gear, green steels, or gearing up your alternate characters.

In short: It's stupid. You can't systematically use an unrealistic scenario like this in calculations. People just aren't going to always have Augment Crystal of Devil's or whatever in their Epic Sword of Shadow. They aren't going to constantly play the game, farming for the same thing over and over with no end to it. It's pointless. Reliability wins again.

In this case, crafting a +5 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Evil/Lawful Outsider Bane would slightly out-damage the Mineral II Greataxe for Pit Fiends. But it will take a long, long time and may not even be guaranteed with all the bugs coming out in this update.

Stick with your mineral 2 for now and earn crafting xp. Then you can decide.

[sirgog]

All those people saying Epic Sword of Shadows is the end-all-be-all again don't know what they're talking about.

They don't seem to realize that to use this weapon as a DR breaker against devils and demons, they have to CONSTANTLY farm Augment crystals from Epic Devil Assault.

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again. It could take a day, a week, or a month to find another. You have no idea. You could buy another one, but that costs precious resources that are better spent finishing other epic gear, green steels, or gearing up your alternate characters.

In short: It's stupid. You can't systematically use an unrealistic scenario like this in calculations. People just aren't going to always have Augment Crystal of Devil's or whatever in their Epic Sword of Shadow. They aren't going to constantly play the game, farming for the same thing over and over with no end to it. It's pointless. Reliability wins again.

In this case, crafting a +5 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Evil/Lawful Outsider Bane would slightly out-damage the Mineral II Greataxe for Pit Fiends. But it will take a long, long time and may not even be guaranteed with all the bugs coming out in this update.

Stick with your mineral 2 for now and earn crafting xp. Then you can decide.

Anyone that has a Min 2 and a non-DR breaking eSOS and uses the Min 2 in epic DQ2 is a fool. The eSOS is massively, massively ahead on DPS even when it doesn't break DR, even if you hit on a 2 with the Min 2. If you use the Devil Assault Demon augment (which lasts around a month for most powergamers, massively longer for a casual player that happens upon one) it is even better.

eSOS outclasses the Min2 on Shroud and ToD on their most commonly run difficulty as well.

Oh and for crafting - read up on it. The weapon you outlined can't be crafted, and wouldn't just 'slightly' out-DPS a Min2 if it could.

Good to know, I never remove my ESOS in DQ or in pretty much any epic for that matter.

Even in Epic DA (I don't know the final bosses stats) I thought it would be prudent to use a DR breaker so I started with my antique and lost aggro. Re-equipped the ESOS and promptly took it right back and kept it the rest of the fight.

Turigulon has at least 30 DR, and seems to have 50% fortification. He's a Min 2 (or eAG) boss unless you struggle to hit his AC (67 or 68) without the +10.

Sounds like you need to debuff his AC; then your Epic Antique is the better choice.

[Shade]

Turigulon has at least 30 DR, and seems to have 50% fortification. He's a Min 2 (or eAG) boss unless you struggle to hit his AC (67 or 68) without the +10.

Nah none of the epic DA bosses have any sort of fortification. Thus you use ESoS. (even at 30 DR its better with 0% fort)

Even epic arraetrikos didn't seem to have any fort when we fought him in gianthold and the subterrane. Seems like they just forgot to give any fort to epic devils (note the abishai has none either)
Also has 30 DR, vs the elite verisons 35.. Pretty sure Turrigulon matches that DR amount too.. It's like turbine decided that 30 was just as high as they wanna go for epic, yet elite goes higher.

ESoS in u9 is pretty much the be all end all weapons unfortunately. Really boring.

Yea there are a few key exceptions (Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD) .. But it pretty much is sadly.

Pre U9 we at least had other weapons better at auto crit.. no longer the case.

Pretty much it's:
0-25% fort anything: ESoS
50% fort devil: min2.. (or dr breaking esos)
100% fort construct: ESoS (generally)
100% fort elemental: Lit2 or Triple ice
100% fort undead: Triple pos, blunt or slash depending on type.
Getting your ass kicked and need some CC: Epic Ratkiller or other stunner.

Not much variety in two hander land =/

[sirgog]

Nah none of the epic DA bosses have any sort of fortification. Thus you use ESoS. (even at 30 DR its better with 0% fort)

Even epic arraetrikos didn't seem to have any fort when we fought him in gianthold and the subterrane. Seems like they just forgot to give any fort to epic devils (note the abishai has none either)
Also has 30 DR, vs the elite verisons 35.. Pretty sure Turrigulon matches that DR amount too.. It's like turbine decided that 30 was just as high as they wanna go for epic, yet elite goes higher.

ESoS in u9 is pretty much the be all end all weapons unfortunately. Really boring.

Yea there are a few key exceptions (Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD) .. But it pretty much is sadly.

Pre U9 we at least had other weapons better at auto crit.. no longer the case.

Pretty much it's:
0-25% fort anything: ESoS
50% fort devil: min2.. (or dr breaking esos)
100% fort construct: ESoS (generally)
100% fort elemental: Lit2 or Triple ice
100% fort undead: Triple pos, blunt or slash depending on type.
Getting your ass kicked and need some CC: Epic Ratkiller or other stunner.

Not much variety in two hander land =/

I'd be interested to see how the classic SoS stacks up against a Min2 on eLailat. I would not be surprised if it is ahead.

[Havok.cry]

I am sorry to have to correct you all but your just wrong... eSOS is inferior to the epic club of the silver flame :P

[Shade]

I'd be interested to see how the classic SoS stacks up against a Min2 on eLailat. I would not be surprised if it is ahead.

They are closer then I expected.. Punched them in Barrage, min2 wins by a decent margin probably due to the fact acid damage now works fully on her (tho you might lose a bit when she goes im am war, as she gains proction from elements):
(numbers are for thf barb +75 dmg mod, seeker 6, 40 dmg glancing blow):

Mineral 2 greataxe:
Average Hit Damage
128.5 = 78-93(Weapon) + 43(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
339.5 = 252-297(Weapon) + 65(Bonus)

Average Natural 20 Damage
353.5 = 252-297(Weapon) + 79(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
143.875 = 100.125(Weapon) + 43.75(Bonus)

Sword of Shadow regular vs 20 DR:
Average Hit Damage
75.5 = 57-67(Weapon) + 13.5(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
257.5 = 229-259(Weapon) + 13.5(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
126.325 = 113.5(Weapon) + 12.825(Bonus)

Ignores FB bonuses.. Which would scale up the min2 a very slightly, as the crit multis are better with higher base damage. (3d6 vs 2d6 in this case)

[zwiebelring]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

People forget that everything like crafting is an optional but somehow all optionals become a must because some players want to have the easiest way in quests so they decline everybody else.

Gear you have to grind for like hell is somehow state of the art. And then these grinders complain the game is too easy just because they push it to a limit beyond the average community who is just fine with whatever they have. If they used ordinary gear they faced a whole new challenge. Gimping is an art!

I never saw a reason to limit myself just to those 2 weapon categories (shroud and/or epic). In fact Shroudgear gives you maximum flexibility for your character so the first gear you aim for is actually customized stuff before those high end toys for which you have to have luck above anything else.

For this nice Greataxe you suggest... well you either have to be very lucky to get it or you have to grind for the ingredients in U9-crafting... somehow Shroudstuff is default situation if you have the content. But even without you can survive, it is a matter of knowledge about your toons capabilities and your own playskill. And, of course, your own goals.

Be creative, use 2 Kukri's, stand in for your style but know what you are doing. Kopesh-copycat or style. It is up to you ... but to be honest I didn't care if I had to use esos. You have the option because you are close to complete it so why not be happy and kill everything now. Esos is not that common, otherwise everyone had one.

p.s.:
Don't take my post too seriously, but the fact that optional gear like epic stuff or crafted max.ed dps items somehow became mandatory and create selection by players is sad imho.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Oh and for crafting - read up on it. The weapon you outlined can't be crafted, and wouldn't just 'slightly' out-DPS a Min2 if it could.

Crafting is currently BETA. Recipes only go up to level 50. It's only logical to assume that since every single weapon in the game has a +5 lootgen counterpart, you will eventually be able to craft +5 weapons.

Glad I can read between the lines.

And yes that weapon wouldn't significantly out-damage a Min II Greataxe.

Vast majority of DPS is determined by strength bonus.
Both have the same critical profile.
And Devils take damage from Slicing and Acid now.
You factor those and the hit die of Green Steel into account and you don't see a massive damage boost, just a small one.

[sirgog]

Crafting is currently BETA. Recipes only go up to level 50. It's only logical to assume that since every single weapon in the game has a +5 lootgen counterpart, you will eventually be able to craft +5 weapons.

Glad I can read between the lines.

And yes that weapon wouldn't significantly out-damage a Min II Greataxe.

Vast majority of DPS is determined by strength bonus.
Both have the same critical profile.
And Devils take damage from Slicing and Acid now.
You factor those and the hit die of Green Steel into account and you don't see a massive damage boost, just a small one.

If you ever try to craft that +5 HB silver of GLOB, it will have a minimum level of 25 under the crafting system we currently have. Not sure if you have a character that can meet that requirement. I do not.

If you do, I'm glad you can read between the lines.