eSoS: End all be all?

[Boromirs]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

[dkyle]

Slot a Crystal of Devil's Ruin and it's really a be all end all.

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane. You're looking at level 75-ish crafting level, and that's a ton of grinding. You'll probably get a MinII faster. +4 Holy Silver of Outsider Bane still beats a MinII, and will be a lot easier to make.

But as far as ESoS vs. LitII, there's not much reason to make a LitII if you can make an ESoS.

[DrNuegebauer]

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane.

What does Lailat think of this?

[Narzic]

What does Lailat think of this?

if he has the crafting level and resources to make that, then i'm sure he could make a cold iron version as well.

[dingal]

What does Lailat think of this?

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

[Boromirs]

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

...bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

[dingal]

...bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

Epic Xuum is pretty damned awesome as well. It's only +6 but it has the same crit profile and a massive amount of fire damage to boot. I'd still go ESOS but the difference isn't as gigantic as one would think.

Additionally the ESOS is the best if you're trying to squeeze out every last possible drop of DPS but that in no way means you can't dish out a ton of DPS with a falchion or greataxe of your choice. Prior to Horcs coming out and starting to rule the roost with the massive Str bonus my Dwarf Barb was virtually always the main tank in TOD using his trusty LitII on normal and Antique on Hard or Elite. He started to fall behind in DPS to Horcs and had a harder time holding aggro and I TR;ed him into the same build but with higher str and DPS. I stayed that way until I got my ESOS and I never had any issues being main tank, leading kills in 99% of quests/raids I entered and having a great time.

The ESOS is no different than the Khopesh is for TWF in that those seeking absolute max DPS are going to use those weapons. Sure there are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to the khopesh but pretty much everyone that uses them is going to have a set of MinII's, maybe LitII's and/or Radiance II's and should they be so lucky, epic chaosblades as the ultimate weapon.

Look at the bright side, at least the ESOS is pretty **** cool looking.

[LordPiglet]

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

Actually, the boss information thread show her to have like 20/dr on epic so that's pretty minimal.

[sirgog]

What does Lailat think of this?

The eSOS blows a Min 2 (or comparable weapons like +5 Holy Cold Iron of Pure Good) out of the water on Lailat. It's not even close.

eSOS is just that good on 0 fortification bosses that only have 20 DR. Plus, against Lailat's quite high AC, +10 to-hit sometimes matters, especially if you haven't got a bard.

Someone did a test recently - if the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe was given Holy and also Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, it would STILL do less damage to eLailat than the eSOS. I'm not sure of their other assumptions (i.e. class, # of TWF feats, etc).


Just get a random lootgen +5 Holy Silver or similar for Elite Horoth and probably hard as well (depending upon your class and whether or not you have the THF feats). If later you want to TR, I recommend a Holy Goodburst 30% Healing Amp maul as the best all-around 12-19 weapon.

[dingal]

The eSOS blows a Min 2 (or comparable weapons like +5 Holy Cold Iron of Pure Good) out of the water on Lailat. It's not even close.

eSOS is just that good on 0 fortification bosses that only have 20 DR. Plus, against Lailat's quite high AC, +10 to-hit sometimes matters, especially if you haven't got a bard.

Someone did a test recently - if the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe was given Holy and also Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, it would STILL do less damage to eLailat than the eSOS. I'm not sure of their other assumptions (i.e. class, # of TWF feats, etc).


Just get a random lootgen +5 Holy Silver or similar for Elite Horoth and probably hard as well (depending upon your class and whether or not you have the THF feats). If later you want to TR, I recommend a Holy Goodburst 30% Healing Amp maul as the best all-around 12-19 weapon.

Good to know, I never remove my ESOS in DQ or in pretty much any epic for that matter.

Even in Epic DA (I don't know the final bosses stats) I thought it would be prudent to use a DR breaker so I started with my antique and lost aggro. Re-equipped the ESOS and promptly took it right back and kept it the rest of the fight.

[sirgog]

All those people saying Epic Sword of Shadows is the end-all-be-all again don't know what they're talking about.

They don't seem to realize that to use this weapon as a DR breaker against devils and demons, they have to CONSTANTLY farm Augment crystals from Epic Devil Assault.

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again. It could take a day, a week, or a month to find another. You have no idea. You could buy another one, but that costs precious resources that are better spent finishing other epic gear, green steels, or gearing up your alternate characters.

In short: It's stupid. You can't systematically use an unrealistic scenario like this in calculations. People just aren't going to always have Augment Crystal of Devil's or whatever in their Epic Sword of Shadow. They aren't going to constantly play the game, farming for the same thing over and over with no end to it. It's pointless. Reliability wins again.

In this case, crafting a +5 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Evil/Lawful Outsider Bane would slightly out-damage the Mineral II Greataxe for Pit Fiends. But it will take a long, long time and may not even be guaranteed with all the bugs coming out in this update.

Stick with your mineral 2 for now and earn crafting xp. Then you can decide.

Anyone that has a Min 2 and a non-DR breaking eSOS and uses the Min 2 in epic DQ2 is a fool. The eSOS is massively, massively ahead on DPS even when it doesn't break DR, even if you hit on a 2 with the Min 2. If you use the Devil Assault Demon augment (which lasts around a month for most powergamers, massively longer for a casual player that happens upon one) it is even better.

eSOS outclasses the Min2 on Shroud and ToD on their most commonly run difficulty as well.

Oh and for crafting - read up on it. The weapon you outlined can't be crafted, and wouldn't just 'slightly' out-DPS a Min2 if it could.

Good to know, I never remove my ESOS in DQ or in pretty much any epic for that matter.

Even in Epic DA (I don't know the final bosses stats) I thought it would be prudent to use a DR breaker so I started with my antique and lost aggro. Re-equipped the ESOS and promptly took it right back and kept it the rest of the fight.

Turigulon has at least 30 DR, and seems to have 50% fortification. He's a Min 2 (or eAG) boss unless you struggle to hit his AC (67 or 68) without the +10.

Sounds like you need to debuff his AC; then your Epic Antique is the better choice.

[stille_nacht]

Slot a Crystal of Devil's Ruin and it's really a be all end all.

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane. You're looking at level 75-ish crafting level, and that's a ton of grinding. You'll probably get a MinII faster. +4 Holy Silver of Outsider Bane still beats a MinII, and will be a lot easier to make.

But as far as ESoS vs. LitII, there's not much reason to make a LitII if you can make an ESoS.

its less the level, than purely how many ingredients you need

for a holy burst effect, youll need to deconstruct 100+ holy weapons at least, only have a vague estimation, but its probably faster just to make a min II then craft a hb silver of geob.....

[Darlor]

What should they do to fix it?

Swing the nerfbat in eSoS' direction again?
Consistently bring other epic weapons into god-mode territory?
Something else?

[Shade]

Something else?

Yea option d:
Consistently bring other epic weapons into balanced territory?

The current nerfed esos is by absolutely not "god mode" For all but the most insane top 100% geared players, it does inferior dps to your common lit2 khopeshs. Given that its about 50 times harder to get then a set of khopeshs, I hardly call it overpowered. Whats wrong here is all the other epic two handers are vastly underpowered.

So yes, all other epic two handers should be brought in line with the esos.

The fact they made all newer epic two handers far inferio to basic greensteel was absolutely astoundingly bad design.

Even epic xuum could do with a bit of a boost. Should gain additional fire damage to make it stand out above the esos for what it should - creatures vulnerable to fire damage.. Currently it doesn't even do that. (and its insane harder to acquire - theres at least 200+ epic sos on khyber today, and probably less then 10 xuums) Running some quick number simply added adding flamine and flaming blast to it, would do the trick, as well as bring it in line with triple fire greensteel vs 100% fort targets its good for (epic mummies).
Barrage numbers for refence (used my own char since I have/use these.. dmg mod: 80, seeker 10):
Epic xuum vs epic troll (120% fire dmg):
Average Hit Damage
146.125 = 82-96(Weapon) + 57.125(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
365.125 = 276-318(Weapon) + 68.125(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
204.5188 = 146.95(Weapon) + 57.56875(Bonus)

Epic SoS vs epic troll:
Average Hit Damage
143.5 = 89-114(Weapon) + 42(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
376.5 = 297-372(Weapon) + 42(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
206.225 = 166.325(Weapon) + 39.9(Bonus)

Only a few points off (realisticly a few more points then this, as it doesn't factor FB/Kensai bonuses which favor the esos), so it just needs a little boost.

[Hendrik]

1. So yes, all other epic two handers should be brought in line with the esos.

2. The fact they made all newer epic two handers far inferio to basic greensteel was absolutely astoundingly bad design.

1. I disagree. Variety is the spice of life, and would not care to see all Epic TH weapons all the 'same'. SoS is one of the most coveted TH weapons in game and to make all TH'ers equal to SoS devaluates it, IMO. Additionally, under this combat revamp, why up the damage potential of more TH'ers when nothing lives more then a few seconds as it stands now? Why go through all that re-coding when your enemy will be long dead before you can even get in a couple extra swings, no matter the weapon in hand.

2. Agreed. I have stated in the past, and will again, GS was the greatest addition and the greatest mistake ever added to DDO. It should have been nerfed LONG ago and our game, IMO again, would be in a better position if it was.

[Krag]

Yea option d:
Consistently bring other epic weapons into balanced territory?

The current nerfed esos is by absolutely not "god mode" For all but the most insane top 100% geared players, it does inferior dps to your common lit2 khopeshs. Given that its about 50 times harder to get then a set of khopeshs, I hardly call it overpowered. Whats wrong here is all the other epic two handers are vastly underpowered.

For some reason you completely ignore the to-hit advantage of eSoS. Unless you are talking about "the most insane top 100% geared players", people have to-hit issues in epic quests. Granted, the problem did not exist pre U9 when every trash mob was consistedly held so everyone and his grandmother could hit on a 1. Spellpass removed that crutch.

Oh, and eSoS is not "50 times harder to get". I don't know about other servers but ev6 is regularly pugged on Argo.

[grodon9999]

I would rather they had balanced the styles so say THF Mineral II and TWF Mineral II were much closer in damage-output than release one be-all-end-all weapon that people have literally lost their sanity pursuing.

TWFing weapons just ain't ever gonna get any better than what we have now. They can't without totally screwing any semblance of balance.

[Chai]

I would rather they had balanced the styles so say THF Mineral II and TWF Mineral II were much closer in damage-output than release one be-all-end-all weapon that people have literally lost their sanity pursuing.

TWFing weapons just ain't ever gonna get any better than what we have now. They can't without totally screwing any semblance of balance.

To do this we would have to be rolling around on 30-38 str toons. Once str gets into the 70s and such weapons with better crit profiles own everything else regardless of base damage. In the low-mid str game (where just about every single other incarnation of D&D is, heh) better crit profile -vs- better base damage is more of a preference, and not an absolute. In DDO with stats being so unbalanced (hi I got 12 dex and 88 str) crit profile rules your face, especially in metagaming land where even the highest end raid bosses either have 0% fort, or 50% fort.

Khopesh is a huge issue here, as this was changed from the norm, as is the fact that there are so many stackable str buffs in the game. Most games that use dex to hit and str for damage dont have this issue.

The only other way to "balance the styles" is to slow down the rate of attack of TWF. Let me know when this happens, because I want to have the store fully stocked with riot materials and popcorn machines, heh.

[Shade]

The only other way to "balance the styles" is to slow down the rate of attack of TWF. Let me know when this happens, because I want to have the store fully stocked with riot materials and popcorn machines, heh.

um that was update 5 remember?
Current attack rates are equalized except:
twf X per min + 80% offhands
thf x per min +75% glancing blow

There's no real significant differences in the amoutn of hits per seconds anymore. The big difference is:
Off hands bonuses (half str, full specials)
vs
Glancing blows (dmg a % of main, low specials % except for certain cases)

Which imo is a cool difference. It means twf benefits more from weaposn with a lot of special dmg (like a lit2) and THF more from higher base damage (like a esos).

the desparity in multiplies isn't an issue after the auto crit nerf. and the desparity in threat ranges and be modified per item to balance it out (exactly how the esos balances out the fact THF gets no enhanced crit thread range greensteel like twf does)

And:
Haste boost providing a bigger benefit to twf vs thf. That bug should be fixed without nerfing twf, just give thf the current bonuse twf gets.

[Shade]

I would rather they had balanced the styles so say THF Mineral II and TWF Mineral II were much closer in damage-output than release one be-all-end-all weapon that people have literally lost their sanity pursuing.

TWFing weapons just ain't ever gonna get any better than what we have now. They can't without totally screwing any semblance of balance.

Well they can only do that by severely nerfing a greensteel kophesh down.. So that idea is out.

And no, they, or anyone who can run a simply dps calc program like barrage can and should add better weapons, while keeping both styles balanced.

Would be easy enough to add a cool new twf weapon that does say 5-10% more dmg versus a specific enemy then a lit2 khopesh. Wouldn't break the game, and would give end game players goals besides boring TR'ing.

Hell there already is one available, which U9 finally brings into balance as it was previously useless due to its **** multiplier (x2):
The anceint vulkorim dagger. Superior to even a lit2 khopesh. Heres the numbers:

edit: mm screwed up the numbers, its very slightly inferior to a khopesh , tho better then a dwarven axe. But the point remains ,they could make an epic bane thats actually well designed so its just slightly better then a lit2 for its 1 specificly enemy.