Cleave.....Is it just me or

[elixer1]

Since update 9 (and there was a specific release note about not making cleave break the attack chain anymore) my supreme cleave (on my level 16 half r-tard barb) and cleave ( on my level 7 full r-tard wf barb) seems to really have improved.

It seems to attack faster (I can cycle it over and over) it can go seamlessly from normal attacks to cleave and back (I assume that was the point of the update release note).

I have many toons, and I am familiar with the classic playstyle of the "round them up" wiz/sorc AoE magic trap, and I find myself doing this with my cleave melees now too (not as elegantly, since if my wizzies or sorcs took as much damage as my barb in the same amount of time, the AoE would be around for very long ).

This seems like a big improvement over the past, what are other people's observations?

For as long as I have been playing, Cleave was considered a poor melee path (bad cooldown, broken attack chain causing degraded dps in all but perfect circumstances), is it back on the table now?

[Dulcimerist]

I noticed Cleave working much smoother without the little "hiccup" at the end of it, too. U9 did change it somehow.

[kublaikhanx]

Im using it constantly now. Even when not surrounded just for quick cleave in between sequences.

[AtomicMew]

I don't have a melee toon I can test it out with, but I'm really curious. Are you guys using cleave with TWF or THF? How do the two compare?

For THF, do you get glancing blow procs on every monster you hit?

For TWF, do you get offhand procs?

[elixer1]

^ I use THF, and yes, I get glancing blows and often procs (although that depends on your feats and enhancements). Unless they have done a change I don't know about, there is really no such thing as TWF cleave, as it just uses your primary hand, and the properties thereof.

[AtomicMew]

^ I use THF, and yes, I get glancing blows and often procs (although that depends on your feats and enhancements). Unless they have done a change I don't know about, there is really no such thing as TWF cleave, as it just uses your primary hand, and the properties thereof.

Oh that sucks. So with TWF, cleave would actually reduce single target DPS? Does anyone know?

[elraido]

Oh that sucks. So with TWF, cleave would actually reduce single target DPS? Does anyone know?

You know how it works in PnP, right?

[dkyle]

You know how it works in PnP, right?

Cleave doesn't reduce single target DPS in PnP.

[somenewnoob]

I really like the new cleave. I've always used it when I got swarmed in the past, but now I can great cleave, cleave, and by the time the cleave is done the great cleave timer is ready to go again. I'll sometimes charge headlong into a pack just to use it! (Ok, so I did that before too, I just always thought cleave was cool! lol)

Pretty good change IMO, much more fluid now.

[Angelus_dead]

Oh that sucks. So with TWF, cleave would actually reduce single target DPS? Does anyone know?

Yes, Cleave certainly does reduce single target DPS if your regular attack rate is high enough.

I haven't recently counted exactly how much delay Cleave creates in the new version, but previously you needed six enemies in range for Cleave to come out ahead of normal TWF combat.

The devs should fix Cleave so that ALL effects which improve attack rate also improve the number of attacks during a Cleave. If you have an 80% chance of offhand procs on a regular strike, then your Cleave strikes should get that same chance.

[somenewnoob]

The devs should fix Cleave so that ALL effects which improve attack rate also improve the number of attacks during a Cleave. If you have an 80% chance of offhand procs on a regular strike, then your Cleave strikes should get that same chance.

+1
Absolutely.

[waterboytkd]

The devs should fix Cleave so that ALL effects which improve attack rate also improve the number of attacks during a Cleave. If you have an 80% chance of offhand procs on a regular strike, then your Cleave strikes should get that same chance.

Ug. I thought that's how it worked...

I totally agree with this. Devs, you let glancing blows work with it. TWF should, too (and doublestrikes).

[strldr3]

There were some posts on the forum saying Great Cleave being slower than Cleave.
Could anyone confirm this please?

[taospark]

Cleave seems pretty fast but Great Cleave seems to still have delay, which is fine with me. However, just from 2 days of trying it out, it seems to freeze you for about a second until you can make a normal melee attack. (Before, you could attack after Great Cleave but the damage wouldn't display for about a second and change.)

[zealous]

Yes, Cleave certainly does reduce single target DPS if your regular attack rate is high enough.

The attack chain restarts at animation 1 after using cleave. With supreme cleave it is thus possible to cycle attack1-attack2-supreme cleave resulting in a ~ 20% increase in attack speed.
A third of those attacks will be a cleave without off hand proc, equivalent to 0.4 regular attacks, 2/3 regular attacks equivalent to 0.8*1.8=1.44 regular attacks. Total of 1.84 regular attacks and a benefit somewhat larger than 2%(1.84/1.8) due to the proportion of off hand attacks being ~0.35 as opposed to 0.8.

[Angelus_dead]

The attack chain restarts at animation 1 after using cleave. With supreme cleave it is thus possible to cycle attack1-attack2-supreme cleave resulting in a ~ 20% increase in attack speed.

I was referring to characters with a high attack rate as losing STDPS from Cleave, and Barbarians actually attack slower than Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Monks or Rogues.

But anyway, did you check that Supreme Cleave cycle thing on a Training Dummy or something? That is, did you verify that your TimeToKill on a subject went down by mixing in Supreme Cleave as opposed to just regular attacks?

[elixer1]

The attack chain restarts at animation 1 after using cleave. With supreme cleave it is thus possible to cycle attack1-attack2-supreme cleave resulting in a ~ 20% increase in attack speed.
A third of those attacks will be a cleave without off hand proc, equivalent to 0.4 regular attacks, 2/3 regular attacks equivalent to 0.8*1.8=1.44 regular attacks. Total of 1.84 regular attacks and a benefit somewhat larger than 2%(1.84/1.8) due to the proportion of off hand attacks being ~0.35 as opposed to 0.8.

Great explanation, thank you very much. +1

[zealous]

I was referring to characters with a high attack rate as losing STDPS from Cleave, and Barbarians actually attack slower than Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Monks or Rogues.

True. Tis a barbarian thread though, for barbarian people. Are you loc...err...barbarian?

But anyway, did you check that Supreme Cleave cycle thing on a Training Dummy or something? That is, did you verify that your TimeToKill on a subject went down by mixing in Supreme Cleave as opposed to just regular attacks?

Looking at TimeToKill would extremely silly since then you would have to parse the combat log to ensure you were not getting lucky damage rolls on one trial and unlucky damage rolls on the other.

What I did do was verifying that all the animations do in fact result in a bonafide attack and doing damage. Sure, there could be some strange mysterious bug resulting in loss of attacks when doing continuous cleave twitching but I deem that has somewhat unlikely.

[taospark]

Sorry for the bump, but it seems Turbine fixed the problem for Half-Orcs using Cleave or Great Cleave which I was having too.