With the new changes ... bring back scrolls

[Drfirewater79]

I didn't say make them BTC or BTA - make it possible to sell them. And I never said make it expensive to make. A few essences and plat for the 'scroll' to add it too and you don't have to run for hours to make a stack.

This would reward people who want to be good at creating high end scrolls and allow them to share their crafting ability with people who would like to have the choice of using BB's on a scroll or whatever. Plus it would be perfect for aspiring Wizards who need scrolls to be inscribed to be used.

You didnt ... I DID ... the scrolls should be bound to character. and sold through guild vendor. Selling scrolls on the AH is doing exactly what they do now .. which is not working. Crafting is not enjoyable for all .... and if your gonna make scrolls craftable then have a UMD requirement it makes no sense at all.

If your gonna make them craftable then they run the problem of high cost in time and crafting experience to give a smaller then worth while bonus? How does that make any sense?

If they are gonna do crafting scrolls they would have to allow you to craft meta magic on them. In which case they would be OP which defeats the entire purpose.

[Alexandryte]

I disagree on the grounds of it still remains a balance issue if they are vendor bought.

But in the interest of fairness: Please name the names of all the spells you would like to be returned to scroll form. That way we can systematically see individual spells versus their impact on player power/player choices.

[redspecter23]

I think that scroll availability should have been looked at when they did the spell pass, and they should periodically look at them and either add or remove them to vendors based on how broken it might be. The only types of scrolls I have a real problem adding to vendors are no-save and/or utility spells that have in quest uses. Dimension Door for instance. It trivializes the actual spell. I think they could add most damage spells back to vendors without any real consequences. the damage output from a scroll compared to a caster with potency and enhancements is just laughable. Let the Bards and Rogues have their fun. Other scrolls I wouldn't add to vendors would include Irresistible Dance, high level summon spells (air elemental specifically) and spells like Power Word: Kill which would simply be broken in scroll form.

On a related note, I think it's just plain silly that all level 8 and 9 scrolls are excluded from vendors.

[patang01]

You didnt ... I DID ... the scrolls should be bound to character. and sold through guild vendor. Selling scrolls on the AH is doing exactly what they do now .. which is not working. Crafting is not enjoyable for all .... and if your gonna make scrolls craftable then have a UMD requirement it makes no sense at all.

If your gonna make them craftable then they run the problem of high cost in time and crafting experience to give a smaller then worth while bonus? How does that make any sense?

If they are gonna do crafting scrolls they would have to allow you to craft meta magic on them. In which case they would be OP which defeats the entire purpose.

Note that I wrote craftable at a specific level and you get the recipe from deconstructing the scroll and then dublicate using essences and 'scroll'. So you don't create shards per the regular system for items; you can start creating scrolls and potions at a certain level.

The recipe itself will create the scroll at whatever UMD required, ML to cast etc. I don't see why doing it through crafting would require it to skip UMD requirements nor what meta magic has anything to do with it.

You make claims that I don't advocate; to make a blade barrier scroll with the same features as one that you pull only requires level in school, the recipe you learned from deconstructing it and a few essences and plat for the parcement to put it on. It's the same as the scroll you pulled.

Essences can be bought from AH and pulled. If the cost was say 4 small essences for a scroll plus 100 plat for the parcement you could deconstruct a level 5 power and get 30ish small essences. That's 15 scrolls for 1 item worth of essences and 1500 plat in real cost.

I never argued for the same kind of costs we see today in the crafter. If anything I would argue for essences and resources that are well within reason without grinding tons of quests for meager returns.

[patang01]

I think that scroll availability should have been looked at when they did the spell pass, and they should periodically look at them and either add or remove them to vendors based on how broken it might be. The only types of scrolls I have a real problem adding to vendors are no-save and/or utility spells that have in quest uses. Dimension Door for instance. It trivializes the actual spell. I think they could add most damage spells back to vendors without any real consequences. the damage output from a scroll compared to a caster with potency and enhancements is just laughable. Let the Bards and Rogues have their fun. Other scrolls I wouldn't add to vendors would include Irresistible Dance, high level summon spells (air elemental specifically) and spells like Power Word: Kill which would simply be broken in scroll form.

On a related note, I think it's just plain silly that all level 8 and 9 scrolls are excluded from vendors.

This could be balanced if crafted; situational scrolls such as ddoor could have a higher essence cost to it limiting a 'flood' of them on the market while regular scrolls that can never compete with the spell cost less.

[Drfirewater79]

I disagree on the grounds of it still remains a balance issue if they are vendor bought.

But in the interest of fairness: Please name the names of all the spells you would like to be returned to scroll form. That way we can systematically see individual spells versus their impact on player power/player choices.

Fire Wall - large amount of immune mobs, evasion means a majority of the mobs will take no damage, scroll damage cannot be amplified thus its damage is about 25% of the spell cast, and in no way over powered ... at a cost equal to Heal scrolls it would also balance the economy of this game should someone be dumb enough to dump 10k plat on a 100 stack of fire wall scrolls. 44 UMD means a very few people could use it without actually being a caster (with the exception of wizard delatante which actually might make it worth a licked cent)

Blade Barrier - evasion, low damage out put, no longer works through doors, requires kiting and long scroll cast, again at a good price they become not as worth while to use in crazy numbers like i said with the fire wall situation.

Harm scrolls - do practically no damage and are used by pale masters to heal. 40 DC makes it hard to UMD for your average character.

Symbol scrolls - Pain, Weakness, Stun, fear, charm, flame - they are all low DC so they cannot be used in practically anything but favor runs and low save mobs.

These are the major players (possibly the only ones) - non of them would be OP and the cost of vendor scrolls balances the economy. Only the richest of players will be using 100s of scrolls a day which lowers there net worth and brings back to balance the massively destroyed economy. At which time the scrolls will be used less often.

making them guild vendor only also means that you have to A) belong to or form a gulid that has a high enough level to use guild vendors and B) all scrolls become bound to character.

This also prevents the issue of sorcs getting access to spells before wizards like we had in the last update where sorcs could get the gust spells while wizards cannot.

[Drfirewater79]

I think that scroll availability should have been looked at when they did the spell pass, and they should periodically look at them and either add or remove them to vendors based on how broken it might be. The only types of scrolls I have a real problem adding to vendors are no-save and/or utility spells that have in quest uses. Dimension Door for instance. It trivializes the actual spell. I think they could add most damage spells back to vendors without any real consequences. the damage output from a scroll compared to a caster with potency and enhancements is just laughable. Let the Bards and Rogues have their fun. Other scrolls I wouldn't add to vendors would include Irresistible Dance, high level summon spells (air elemental specifically) and spells like Power Word: Kill which would simply be broken in scroll form.

On a related note, I think it's just plain silly that all level 8 and 9 scrolls are excluded from vendors.

i agree with the D Door issue .. but that being said .. D Door is barely used cept in the most weird of situations. Its already been nerfed and your theory of it removing the need for the spell is a good thing (as it gives you more spell slots for useful spells) but would also be a reason to remove teleport and greater teleport spells.

Irresistable dance lasts what 10 seconds now? and DCs for power word would be worthless making the spell better to take as a spell.

BUT I AGREE ... we could easily remove level 8 and 9 spells from scroll vendors ... most of the spells i think need to be re added are lvl 6 and lower spells.

[Drfirewater79]

This could be balanced if crafted; situational scrolls such as ddoor could have a higher essence cost to it limiting a 'flood' of them on the market while regular scrolls that can never compete with the spell cost less.

Flooding the market is the only way to make them balanced. It balances the economy based on high cost. Making them crafted as i said ... destroys the balance aspect. It keeps things the way they are now ... high price for junk spell scrolls so no one buys them thus not balancing the economy at all.

[Drfirewater79]

Note that I wrote craftable at a specific level and you get the recipe from deconstructing the scroll and then dublicate using essences and 'scroll'. So you don't create shards per the regular system for items; you can start creating scrolls and potions at a certain level.

The recipe itself will create the scroll at whatever UMD required, ML to cast etc. I don't see why doing it through crafting would require it to skip UMD requirements nor what meta magic has anything to do with it.

Because you add a grind element which adds a bigger cost. UMD is already a large cost as you have to design your entire build and gear slots to aquire the UMD required to use these powers as is.

You make claims that I don't advocate; to make a blade barrier scroll with the same features as one that you pull only requires level in school, the recipe you learned from deconstructing it and a few essences and plat for the parcement to put it on. It's the same as the scroll you pulled.

How in any way does that balance anything? It makes the scrolls just as rare as they are now and defeats the entire purpose of having them as they destroy the economy by making them craftable and sell able on the open market.

Essences can be bought from AH and pulled. If the cost was say 4 small essences for a scroll plus 100 plat for the parcement you could deconstruct a level 5 power and get 30ish small essences. That's 15 scrolls for 1 item worth of essences and 1500 plat in real cost.

How in any way is that better then charging 200 per scroll (3000 for 15 scrolls) ?? Cause people who craft will have millions sell them for millions and not only be OP with unlimited scrolls but be unbalancing the economy by selling them at a higher then reasonalbe cost.

I never argued for the same kind of costs we see today in the crafter. If anything I would argue for essences and resources that are well within reason without grinding tons of quests for meager returns.

This is why gulid vendors make the most sense.

[Kaeldur]

Now its obvious (or i thought it was) that i am exadurating .. if you dont get that ... wow .. i am sorry. But it lasts 50% as long (that is less 50% dps) many mobs now have improved evasion and high reflex saves (lets say it means they make there save 50% of the time and that 50% of the mobs have improved evasion which seems to be the case .. when they fali they take 50% of the intended damage total oh wait 100% less effective??)

I was actually starting to get worried despite the "exaderation". Until I saw your math, that settled me down.

Anyway, on topic: I'd like to see some scrolls make their way back. But I won't be bummed if they don't.

[redspecter23]

i agree with the D Door issue .. but that being said .. D Door is barely used cept in the most weird of situations. Its already been nerfed and your theory of it removing the need for the spell is a good thing (as it gives you more spell slots for useful spells) but would also be a reason to remove teleport and greater teleport spells.

Irresistable dance lasts what 10 seconds now? and DCs for power word would be worthless making the spell better to take as a spell.

BUT I AGREE ... we could easily remove level 8 and 9 spells from scroll vendors ... most of the spells i think need to be re added are lvl 6 and lower spells.

Power Word: Kill is having it's save removed as of tomorrow so that's why I mentioned that one as a particular issue in scroll form. Stuff like FtS and Destruction are already sold in scroll form I believe. I have no issue with that. If a UMD'er wants to enervate something 10 times then use Destruction on it, I'm cool with that.

[Drfirewater79]

Power Word: Kill is having it's save removed as of tomorrow so that's why I mentioned that one as a particular issue in scroll form. Stuff like FtS and Destruction are already sold in scroll form I believe. I have no issue with that. If a UMD'er wants to enervate something 10 times then use Destruction on it, I'm cool with that.

Well i would be fine with all spells with no save have no vender scrolls .. that is fine and a good argument as to why. Enervate also has a save ... so the DC matters ... even enervate scrolls are useless at least once they start getting good saves.

I am a UMDer on all my characters though i generally dont waste points in Cha just to boost it. on average its not hard to hit a 32-35 self buffed UMD. 70-80% umd heal scrolls but a fire wall scroll with those same numbers would hit a fire wall at nearly 50%.

So unless you have rouge levels bard levels super high cha bulid on top of having a cha skills shroud item ... titan 7finger gloves or at very least the bunny hat ( a 2 point difference which is a 10% fail difference) and some sort of skill boost (human or rouge) and exceptional cha item to max out UMD.

So its not easy to hit 40+ umd required to use most of the scrolls that where removed. Its not impossible by any means but its not easy without the use of paid pots from DDO store ( a reason that makes more sense for them to add them )

[SableShadow]

Enervate also has a save ... so the DC matters ... even enervate scrolls are useless at least once they start getting good saves.

[patang01]

Because you add a grind element which adds a bigger cost. UMD is already a large cost as you have to design your entire build and gear slots to aquire the UMD required to use these powers as is.
Define grind element? How is it any more or less grind to grind up favor to be able to buy them or plat to buy it from a guild vendor than craft and buy from a crafter? I gave you an example that provided 15 scrolls - are you telling me that this one item presents a massive amount of work compared to the much higher cost in plat to buy them from say a guild vendor?


How in any way does that balance anything? It makes the scrolls just as rare as they are now and defeats the entire purpose of having them as they destroy the economy by making them craftable and sell able on the open market.
Why would they be more rare? In fact if they can be crafted it stands that they will be less rare. Rarity comes from random pull plus high cost of sell. The more you have in the system the less it costs.



How in any way is that better then charging 200 per scroll (3000 for 15 scrolls) ?? Cause people who craft will have millions sell them for millions and not only be OP with unlimited scrolls but be unbalancing the economy by selling them at a higher then reasonalbe cost.
That makes no sense either. The plat cost was a example; it can be adjusted to where it's a good value to create. I wonder, if you have thousands of players crafting and have the ability to make scrolls, why would those scrolls cost millions? High absurd costs comes from rarity and the speculation of its value. Large devils scale costs alot because its rarity; it would not cost as much if we could 'craft it' (not suggesting it, just giving it as an example). I very much doubt that someone would sell say a ddoor scroll for millions when someone will sell them for 10k or even less. It's just not realistic to assume that the prices you see on AH will cost that much of you can craft it; the opposite is more likely. The reason why the crafting system is broken right now is because of the absurd cost of making an item. Such as 2k lessers essences for a shard? Now in the unbound world I cannot fathom what the cost of it will be but it will more likely cost more than a randomly pulled.

Player crafted items for a reasonable cost of materials promotes a truly genuine player based market which allows players to make some extra plats without grinding for plat and for people who don't like to craft use their plat to buy it.



This is why gulid vendors make the most sense.

I understand what you're saying but propose for it to be a matter of crafting; either way is fine with me as long as we take in account for the things that can break the system (such as in the case of ddoor).

[redspecter23]

Enervate has no save. Perhaps you're thinking of spell resistance check? All scrolls suffer from very poor SR breaking ability.

[Drfirewater79]

I understand what you're saying but propose for it to be a matter of crafting; either way is fine with me as long as we take in account for the things that can break the system (such as in the case of ddoor).

how much do you see fragrent drowshroud for sale on your server? they are easily farmed but they sell for 15-30k plat EACH.

There are hundereds of perfect examples of easily farmable items selling for stupid prices. Crafted items mean that you can only craft them if you A) Grind ingredients needed b) spend the time to craft them c) have the apporpriate crafting level

this means that all that adds into the price when you sell it .. it means crafters get a far unfair advantage both in plat grinding and in scroll grinding over players who dislike the crafting system. That creates a negative balance. Guild vendors keep things bound to character .. requires a small ONE TIME grind to hit high enough guild level ... and removes the ability to pass them or sell them. High cost of scrolls will help balance the economy which is so grossly unbalanced now.

It provides a equal advantage which is far from over powered and allows for some additional spells to be used now that we will be using more spell points on average and allow UMDers some benifit outside of healing for there dedication as well. Crating adds an un-needed grind to a simple fix that should have never been changed to start with once the UMD score was raised.

[Drfirewater79]

Enervate has no save. Perhaps you're thinking of spell resistance check? All scrolls suffer from very poor SR breaking ability.

ah yeah i am i think ... but easy enough .. add a will save and bam there you go.

[Valiance]

ah yeah i am i think ... but easy enough .. add a will save and bam there you go.

Blade barrier is gonna rock! I can't believe you think BB is being nerfed.

BTW please stay on topic which is blade barrier rules.

Thanks.

[redspecter23]

ah yeah i am i think ... but easy enough .. add a will save and bam there you go.

I think a great many people would be very unhappy with adding a save to enervation. If it came down to adding a save or scrapping the scrolls at the vendors, I think 99.99% of people would vote in favor of scrapping the scroll. The whole point of Enervation is to weaken up an enemy who has saves that are too high for you to bypass by casting the spell alone. I think the spell you're looking for is Bestow Curse. It basically gives a -4 to saves and has a will based save associated with it. Also, I never see that scrolled in combat situations

[patang01]

how much do you see fragrent drowshroud for sale on your server? they are easily farmed but they sell for 15-30k plat EACH.

There are hundereds of perfect examples of easily farmable items selling for stupid prices. Crafted items mean that you can only craft them if you A) Grind ingredients needed b) spend the time to craft them c) have the apporpriate crafting level

this means that all that adds into the price when you sell it .. it means crafters get a far unfair advantage both in plat grinding and in scroll grinding over players who dislike the crafting system. That creates a negative balance. Guild vendors keep things bound to character .. requires a small ONE TIME grind to hit high enough guild level ... and removes the ability to pass them or sell them. High cost of scrolls will help balance the economy which is so grossly unbalanced now.

It provides a equal advantage which is far from over powered and allows for some additional spells to be used now that we will be using more spell points on average and allow UMDers some benifit outside of healing for there dedication as well. Crating adds an un-needed grind to a simple fix that should have never been changed to start with once the UMD score was raised.

I think you are blowing things WAY out of proportion to make your point. I can't fathom how deconstruct a level 5 power into say 30 smaller essences and some plat constitutes the same as grinding for items like fragrant. I've done fragrant runs and it'll take a real bunch of quests to get enough to matter.

So please, if you have a point against crafting scrolls I'd like for us to at least argue with realistic numbers instead.

Reversely while you are against crafting you are for keeping it a guild vendor only; what if people have low level guilds or simply don't want to join guilds? Isn't that exactly as saying what if I don't want to craft? The differense is that with crafting you can buy them from someone selling them while if you keep it through guild vendor you can't unless you're part of a guild.