Gear Dependance of Rogues compared to other classes

[LOOON375]

Skipping Toughness for a rogue is a voluntary ticket into a world of hurt and ridicule for your many preventable deaths (sometimes open, more often behind your back into their guildchat).

That I can agree with.

Instead of taking greater TWF and oversized TWF, I took toughness X2 instead. While only using rapiers and shortswords, my DPS is amazing.

[voodoogroves]

Interesting thread and topic.

I've just taken my first rogue to cap and I am normally a barb guy and like that style of play.

Rogues are certainly gear dependent. I rolled a pure Str Assasin Horc build and dumped int, wisdom and charisma.

I can easily no-fail heal scrolls but to do so I need:
1. Greater Heroism
2. Epic Spyglass Tier 3 (+3 UMD stacking)
3. Bunny Hat (+3 UMD Competence hidden bonus)
4. DT Armor with +3 Charisma Skills and +6 charisma

I can hit 60 or above in search, spot, disable and open lock but to do so I need:
(Note that I had no issues getting any epic traps I tried while only able to hit a 54 disable score so 60 might be overkill)
1. Epic Spyglass +20 spot and search
2. Epic Raven's Sight Set (+3 stacking search and spot)
3. Epic Utility Vest +20 Open Lock +20 Disable
4. +6 Int item

I personally prefer a very self relient toon so I choose not to swap gear for UMD right now. I wear my UMD DT armor 100% of the time and my spyglass 100% of the time instead of swapping when I want to do something. This allows me to hit near instant heal scrolls, raise dead scrolls and buff scrolls merely by equipping and casting the scroll. Other folks may find their inventory extremely clogged with their UMD swap set + their pure DPS set + their trapping set.

For DPS I find my DPS to be extremely good even with my choice to not wear a bloodstone in favor of UMD swap and to not wear additional guards etc on my DT Armor.

I carry:
1. Rad II Khopesh
2. Min II Khopesh
3. +5 Met of PG Khopesh
4. 2x +3 anarchic burst of Greater Elemental Bane Khopeshes

Prior to finishing my GS I carried what seemed like 100 khopeshes for various situations so that felt very gear dependent as well.

Right now this is a first life toon that has existed for less than 2 months so I haven't had a ton of time to focus on his gear but I've got a pretty decent loadout for now until I get some better items.

I carry:
1. Epic Ravens Talons (Gloves)
2. Epic Raven's Sight (Goggles)
3. Epic Necklace of Venom (Neck)
4. Epic Ring of Venom (Ring)
5. Epic Spyglass (Trinket)
6. Tharne's Goggles (Retired)
7. Knost's Belt (for GFL and +6 con) (Belt)
8. Kormor's for dancing people (Belt)
9. Draconic Neck (GH) (Neck)
10. Planar Gird (GH) (Belt)
11. Jump belt (TOD) (Belt)
12. Striding Ring with Large Alignment Slot for +20HP (Ring)
13. Striding boots (Yep, 2 striding items, these are 30% for run speed) (Ring)
14. Epic Utility Vest (For traps) (Armor)
15. DT Armor +3 Cha Skills, +6 Cha, Earthgrab
16. Cloak of Resistance
17. Envenomed Cloak (Just need to craft)
18. +6 Str Bracers (temporary and perhaps redundant, ideally these will be claw bracers for fort and exceptional con)
19. Spectral Gloves (Situational)
20. Whisper Ring (Don't have yet)
21. Ravager Ring (Don't have yet)
22. Ravager Belt
23. Assasin Belt
24. Rad II Khop
24. Min II Khop
26. +5 Met PG Khop
27. +3 Anarchic Burst of Greater Ele Bane X2
28. Lots of situational disruptors etc
29. Sometimes epic smallblades (I share these with aother toon)

and that's not everything. So yeah, rogues carry a lot of **** and if you dump int you're going to need even more ****.

The level of gear dependence is directly correlated to your desire to be a pure DPS ape, a trap-monkey or a generalist that does an extremely high amount of DPS.

I'm more in the latter camp and that requires me to carry a lot of different gear.

And you didn't even talk about the stacks of scrolls and wands ...

invisibility
shield
fire shield
teleport
stoneskin
etc.
etc.
etc.

[dingal]

The "gear-dependances" is two-fold for a rogue.

He would still have excellent DPS if wielding a wet noodle and then get his + 70 sneak attack damage --> DPS is not gear dependent. Which doesnt mean it wouldnt benefit nicely from it.

Agreed, however if you really want to guarantee your DPS and give yourself some wiggle room with your playstyle a RadII is almost required. Sure you can always let the tanks engage and take aggro first but that costs you DPS in the waiting that you could otherwise start with immediately by blinding your opponent.

Skipping Toughness for a rogue is a voluntary ticket into a world of hurt and ridicule for your many preventable deaths (sometimes open, more often behind your back into their guildchat).

Agreed, I took toughness x2 until I finish my shroud HP item. I have no issues hitting on most any roll and will take swap for power attack at that point.

P.S.
Most important is player skill with the Rogue class. How not to get aggro, when to self-heal through pots & UMD, to let the tanks engage first, not lounging in the cleave-areas of bosses, ...

Very much agreed. Can't tell you how often I see a rogue splat in shroud part4 because he doesn't move around to Harry's back when he turns. I would hope this should be common sense.

In line

[dingal]

And you didn't even talk about the stacks of scrolls and wands ...

invisibility
shield
fire shield
teleport
stoneskin
etc.
etc.
etc.

Yep there are days I find my inventory nearly full with nothing but locked items. I have soooo many stacks of different scrolls and they are about to be augmented with Circle of Death scrolls starting tomorrow!

[LeLoric]

Rogues are tough for shroud as they are pretty reliant on both a cha skills item and a hp item. This means 20 shroud runs minimum to get the cleansing essence.

Add to that the fact that for optimal dps they will want both a set of min II's, lit II's and at least one rad II although two is often better.

Epic smallblade helped here as it reduced the need for one lit II as dps is better with the smallblade in the off hand.

Rogues also rely on the most stats versus any other character.

Str Con Dex Cha Int are all good to have and accomodating those in a gear set is rough without the consolidation available from raid/epic gear.

As far as the quote in the op it's true rogues should do a far bit of endgame before tr'ing. Not only is the gear relevant as it helps you get back to 20 much faster but it also allows you to know how the character will play and help you solidify the build choices for future lifes. Granted this is relevant for any class.

[dingal]

Rogues are tough for shroud as they are pretty reliant on both a cha skills item and a hp item. This means 20 shroud runs minimum to get the cleansing essence.

Add to that the fact that for optimal dps they will want both a set of min II's, lit II's and at least one rad II although two is often better.

Epic smallblade helped here as it reduced the need for one lit II as dps is better with the smallblade in the off hand.

Rogues also rely on the most stats versus any other character.

Str Con Dex Cha Int are all good to have and accomodating those in a gear set is rough without the consolidation available from raid/epic gear.

As far as the quote in the op it's true rogues should do a far bit of endgame before tr'ing. Not only is the gear relevant as it helps you get back to 20 much faster but it also allows you to know how the character will play and help you solidify the build choices for future lifes. Granted this is relevant for any class.

I may or may not bother with a litII. I prefer charging in like a barb with my RadII clearing my path but that's just how I like to play. First in, last out (and no I hardly ever die on my rogue ;P )

I totally agree with the quote in the OP and echo what you just said about choices for the future. I'm not a big TR type of guy because grinding really wears me down but the first TR is pretty easy. Having TR'ed and picked up my GS weapons at level 12 I would never even consider doing it without having my items crafted. There;s something to be said for the raw power of greensteel at level 12.

[QuantumFX]

I wouldn’t call them “the most gear dependant”. That distinction goes to arcane casters. I find I switch weaponsets/gear way more on a caster than on a rogue.

I would call them “The most frustrating to gear up at cap.” They have a bunch of enchantments that they want to slot that are more optional for other classes. ex. Threat reduction (Which seems to be exclusively on set bonuses nowadays), Bonus HP items, Sneak Attack Items and quickswappable items for skill bonuses.

[RobinofSpiritwood]

If you want to play your Rogue like a Barb, then yes, you need a lot of gear. And not a lot of rogue-specific skill.
But why not just make a Barb if you're inclined that way? Barbs are hella fun.

If you have a Rad rapier, you can basically ignore a lot of the efforts to do aggro management, and can play as a Fighter would- but doesn't that essentially simply make you a hard-hitting fighter? If you have the HP and AC of a full on melee class, why can't you tank with damage doing the aggro?

Shouldn't we widen our own skill base as players, and try to play different builds differently? What's the point of having different classes if there's just "one way to play"?

The focus on getting gear, matching gear, upgrading gear, slotting gear, storing gear --- we have become the Dragons. It's all about that big pile of possessions. It's essentially the same as working and trying to get richer- there's less fun, more drudgery. And the gear/gold/demand is just escalating over the years.

That's not why I play.
I'm here to have fun, not amass digital loot.
One of my rogues is capped, and has never run the shroud once. There's still loads to do, places to go, folks to meet, adventures to have. You want a challenge? Try an at-level quest with just Masterwork gear.

[RJBsComputer]

If a Rogue is going to be gear dependent, then it comes down to how you spend your Ability Points to set your Rogues Stats. Yes, if you use Int and Wis as a dump stats then you are going to need gear to make up for the short comings. Be a "I know where the trapboxes are" rogue and you start to dump wisdom because you don't need to "Notice" that there is a trap or secret door there. Dump intelligence for higher strength scores and you will need to have search items to find traps and doors. Dump charisma because you want extra stat points in con and dex, then you well need UMD items so you can use scrolls, wands, and restricted gear. If you don't have to be the Kill Count Leader, or don't care you have to take one more swing to kill a monster, then you can find the sweet spot for Stat Point Spread so you can be a more balance Rogue and not very dependent on gear.

[dingal]

If a Rogue is going to be gear dependent, then it comes down to how you spend your Ability Points to set your Rogues Stats. Yes, if you use Int and Wis as a dump stats then you are going to need gear to make up for the short comings. Be a "I know where the trapboxes are" rogue and you start to dump wisdom because you don't need to "Notice" that there is a trap or secret door there. Dump intelligence for higher strength scores and you will need to have search items to find traps and doors. Dump charisma because you want extra stat points in con and dex, then you well need UMD items so you can use scrolls, wands, and restricted gear. If you don't have to be the Kill Count Leader, or don't care you have to take one more swing to kill a monster, then you can find the sweet spot for Stat Point Spread so you can be a more balance Rogue and not very dependent on gear.

While I agree with you in principle that you can in fact dump str and con you probably (almost certainly) shouldn't.

It's not as black and white as you've painted it. In high level raids like TOD Elite if you can't help to finish the raid more quickly because you've gimped your DPS then you're a liability that may end up costing people mana pots or extra scrolls.

You can get away with being a flavor build, or a low con trapmonkey in a lot of areas, most of the game in fact, but the more punishing quests that need high DPS like epic DA, epic Chrono, Elite TOD will quickly highlight a soft spot in the dps department.

Rogues are one of the few classes that can "do it all and do it well" in terms of UMD, incredible DPS, traps, locks, buffs, rez etc. so there's no reason to leave out what is ultimately the most important thing in the game: high dps. My opinion, and I'm admittedly a min/maxer so you may not share my views.

[Fumblesz]

why do people play rogues if they don't like the different aspects of a character types specific development?

we are a different lot then the rest of the classes, the quirks are there because we are thieves and such, and because we also can get more out of the role-play of the game.

we don't walk or talk like the others but i bet we have a hell of a lot more fun playing the game...

i wanted to think of something funny to say but i just realized i could be watching people die in traps right now...

my only thought on gear with rogues is that there's a thieves creed and we should all remember it: share what you got .

~Fumblesz