Gear Dependance of Rogues compared to other classes

[karl_k0ch]

The following quote is taken from a different threat and I thought is would be interesting enough to discuss this topic on its own. I cut some things from the quote below, but I kept the disclaimers and the part I found most interesting. This is not indended to be a two-man discussion, but I am actually pretty interested how other players see the rogue class.

Sorry to come off as bossy, but this is something I'm pretty passionate about in DDO. I love rogues and hate to see new players or new rogue players make what I think is a critical mistake.

...

Rogues are, arguably, the most gear dependent class in the game. Where I could teach a monkey to make a passable sorc or barbarian, it's far too easy to screw up a rogue. TRing a rogue too early is one of the easiest ways to screw one up. I think 80% of a rogue's performance comes from gear, 15% from build, and 5% from player ability. So if 80% of a rogue's power comes from his gear, why would you even consider TRing before you had great gear? You're going to get a 2% improvement on 15% of your power when you TR...at best! Whereas running a few Shrouds, VoDs, or Towers, can make step change improvements.


(DISCLAIMER AGAIN: I'm not trying to insult or belittle anyone...like I said, I'm passionate about rogues and hate to see rogues make what I consider a critical mistake. ...)

From my own experience, rogues are gear dependent. But only to a degree.

With regards to weapons, there is one thing which is commonly considered to be essential for a rogue: A radiance weapon with a high crit profile. There is no other type of weapon which offers such a huge amount of damage increase as a Rad2 due to allowing sneak attack damage on mobs who have aggro'd you. But then, if you have finished your Rad2? Even the "correct" choice of off-hand is not gospel. There are many viable weapon combinations (as can be seen in this small survey).
The interesting thing about a rogue's damage output is one thing: Once it is assured one gets his or her sneak attack damage, the importance of choice of the correct weapon dimishes. This is the main reason why it's still viable to use rapiers - and it's still OKish to make a finesse-based build.
On the other hand, it was (pre-U9) worth it carrying a golfbag of Banishing and Smiting Weapons in order to make up for the lack of SA against Constructs and Elemetals et al. But then, those weapons were not hard to aquire.

Bottom line weapons: Rad2 is essential, not questioning that. But secondary and off-hand weapons? Is raid loot really that important in these regards?

Armor: Usually, a DT armor is used on a rogue. But is there actually one (or more) DT combination of DT runes which are an optimum? +5 Res, 20% Healing Amp, Tharnes is my favorite, but I see many other viable options (especially some for no-switch 39 UMD).

GS HP item: This has more importance for rogues than for other classes, as rogues have generally lower HP than other melee classes. This is essential. Which kind of HP item you craft, and where you put it, is again pretty variable.

Other gear: Getting level appropriate Trap gear is important, but you do not have to do raids for this.
Getting a standing UMD of 39 is a very nice thing as it improves self-sufficiency and survivability vastly, but even without, you can be a very successful rogue.

To conclude: Yes, there are some essential items for are rogue, but it is not necessary to grind for a huge number of specific items to make the rogue worthwile, as it is the case for AC tanks, for instance.

[Kmnh]

I think his point was that it's worth it to get the gear before you TR.

Tharne's goggles, a gs HP item and a pair of good gs weapons will help you more than TRing. And there is some gear that helps build your TR better, as I said in that thread

[Yazzman]

I concur. 80% from gear? No sir.

I'd say rogues are even less weapon-dependant then other melee classes. Give him a teaspoon and a well-built rogue can still do great dps on sneakable mobs. Throw in a search and DD item and he can do most at-level traps in the game. Biggest problem is probably the lack of HP, GFL/CON/GS HP items are very important. But it all goes down to player skill. Locating and closely following main party tank combined with careful use of diplomacy can take care of low HP pool except maybe in some raids (Shroud and random Harry aggro comes to mind). Yes, Rad2 weapons are a huge difference, but any rogue is still very well playable without them.

[elujin]

though with the right gear rog dps goes up drasticly but in a way a rog could be swinging a wet towel and still get massif SA dmg

[Kovalas]

A geared TR takes half the time to relevel of a non geared TR, and you won't need/want to group either.

Kov

[wax_on_wax_off]

I haven't played a rogue to cap before.

However, regards gear dependency, it (as most such questions) depends on the context. In a raid context (where most people care about DPS and such things) gear means less to a rogue than what it does for any other DPS character.

Simply, for most characters, the DPS is dependent on some properties of the weapon used. For example, fighters, paladins and barbarians produce DPS through critical hits while rangers and monks produce DPS through a higher amount of hits/second. Both rely on the base properties of the weapon for DPS.

In contrast, give a level 20 rogue dual toothpicks and in most raid situations they will still deal moderate damage, perhaps not great, but their DPS will be less affected than any other character.

Obviously, DPS isn't the only measure of a character, however, everything else is secondary, particularly for a rogue. Build in enough HP and general survivability and you are totally fine without any gear whatsoever. Therefore, build comprises 25% of a rogues viability in end game situations, 5% is gear and the other 70% is player skill.

I think what the other poster was mostly getting at is that leveling a TR'd rogue is quite difficult. Radiance is the important one (doesn't matter for raids or epics where everything should be CC'd). Radiance is only available at level ~13 though, before that you have limited options (particularly if you solo). Therefore, it is correct to say that if you want to TR a rogue it is a good idea to be well geared first or you might be starting on a rocky road. I don't know, I'll let you know (I'm about to TR my monk into a rogue, 1 or 2 levels of monk should make it smooth but we'll see).

[Kovalas]

Therefore, build comprises 25% of a rogues viability in end game situations, 5% is gear and the other 70% is player skill.

I would disagree strongly with this, as a Rogue at cap for 3 years and still not ready to TR (might as well get those
2 other +3 Tomes first)....

I would say that a Rogue is 25% Build 25% Skill and 50% Gear......

I would also say that, for a new Rogue player, survivability should be more prioity then DPS in first life, as the
old saying goes, a dead Rogue does no damage.

I would actually go so far as to say that a new Rogue should craft a greensteal HP item, BEFORE a RadianceII but thats just me.

Kov

[voodoogroves]

I completely agree with him.

Even Shroud or VoD hard ... the way the metagame is played, most rogues need some gearage before they can really withstand the same pace and style of play expected by most other players.

My monk could stand in the murder ball in the shroud or vod, reach cap, etc. and still play / handle epics with no GS HP item, no Amrath set, etc. The Mabar wraps were a big boost as were things like Tharnes and a ToD belt - but those didn't keep him back.

My clonk? The same thing. My wizard? My bard? My FVS? etc. All of them could handle late and end-game raids w/o incident and with the same style as expected as everyone else.

My Rogue? First life, drow rogue ... still felt squishy. She got a +2 CON tome as soon as I could (I'm swimming in DEX/STR tomes but CON are for some reason harder for me to pull), got an HP item on her 2nd shroud crafted to third tier. She still felt squishy. Eventually I tagged Earthen Guard on one of her DTs and got her some Madstone Boots and now she feels suitably tough.

...

Gear swaps. She's an assassin, but she still needs the best trap gear if I want to pretend to try to handle traps, even more so epic traps. Also some bluff/diplo swaps for shortcutting some quests. Appropriate stat swaps (INT, etc.) skills, whatever.

...

Since her DPS is primarily sneak-based AND she's TWF that really makes the golf bag o weapons critical. Leveling it was disrupters, banishers, smiters and even vorpals through the mid-teens. I have a set of stuff I do carry, but honestly it is a lot to swap. All of my characters carry portal beaters, DR breakers and she's no different.

....


All that together means that my rogue is hurting more for inventory space than anyone ... without those she'd be pressed in some quests to hit things like elite trap DCs or solo content / areas / sections.



Compare that with a first life barb who can reach 20 and compete in the traditional metagame with essentially no special stuff. A buddy of mine just leveled a barb and weapon-wise he used a Holy Silver greataxe I gave him and the Blade of the Fury for basically everything from 12-ish to where he sits at cap (carnifex and antique for most content below). Is it the best? No, but as he builds his greensteel it's been just fine. I think he's still wearing the Crimson Chain (haste guard). So he can't hate-tank right now - that's only important in a few places ... and not being "the bestest" DPS doesn't hurt him.

A rogue simply can't do that. If you want to hit the elite traps and handle the elite fights, you need to be diligent to ensure you've got the right gear along the way. If you want to stand in the scrum like the metagame expects in the raid fights, you need HP benchmarks. If you want to solo, you need to build those Rad2s and otherwise collect the right gear.

In many ways, a first life barb just needs a hireling and the biggest loot-gen axe you can find.

[cupajoe]

I am a casual player who plays mostly rogues. I have been playing since Feb. 07 and only recently TR'd my main rogue. I have many GS items and two GS weapons. I have some epic items (from the events). I am having a heck of time equipping my character. I messed up and didn't stock up on certain items (pots, wands, +5 tools, etc) and I failed to make sure I had level appropriate gear for all levels. You see at every other level I am needing new trap gear and new stat bonus gear. Mix in that I do have some gear saved and now I am trying to mix and match between the AH items and my bank. Its a pain in the butt. I should have planned better. But the point here is that it has forced me to see just how gear dependent my rogue is, and the truth is that my rogue is incredibly gear dependent.

So yeah, get your gear sorted FOR EACH LEVEL, before you TR. Also, buy stacks of consumables and if you can I would also suggest getting all your raids to the next 20th completion. So in my opinion, a rogue needs lots of gear and it changes a lot whilst leveling. Plan accordingly.

[Yazzman]

I am a casual player who plays mostly rogues. I have been playing since Feb. 07 and only recently TR'd my main rogue. I have many GS items and two GS weapons. I have some epic items (from the events). I am having a heck of time equipping my character. I messed up and didn't stock up on certain items (pots, wands, +5 tools, etc) and I failed to make sure I had level appropriate gear for all levels. You see at every other level I am needing new trap gear and new stat bonus gear. Mix in that I do have some gear saved and now I am trying to mix and match between the AH items and my bank. Its a pain in the butt. I should have planned better. But the point here is that it has forced me to see just how gear dependent my rogue is, and the truth is that my rogue is incredibly gear dependent.

So yeah, get your gear sorted FOR EACH LEVEL, before you TR. Also, buy stacks of consumables and if you can I would also suggest getting all your raids to the next 20th completion. So in my opinion, a rogue needs lots of gear and it changes a lot whilst leveling. Plan accordingly.

Remember that you levelled up that rogue to cap once already, all that without any GS gear and such. Just because you got used to them doesn't mean you need them.

[cupajoe]

Remember that you levelled up that rogue to cap once already, all that without any GS gear and such. Just because you got used to them doesn't mean you need them.

My point was that, as I didn't plan well, I am finding out that rogues do use a lot of gear. Every other level I am swapping not just weapons and armor but skill items (spot, search, DD, & OL) and stat items (all but WIS).

Now having said that I barely managed to hold level 11 for 1 dot in my excitement to use my GS items. Man I can't wait to get my sweet, sweet RAD II rapier back. Sniff, I really miss it.

[Forzah]

On a melee no skill is required in this game. Since a rogue is a melee too, its viability consists of 0% skill endgame. The rest is divided between build and gear. If you have read the forums, you will build the rogue right. What can possibly go wrong if you read the forums and pay mind to it? This means we can take build out of consideration as well, since everyone who reads the forums makes good rogues. Thus, a rogues viability consists 100% out of gear. However, even though this 100% may seem a lot, it is not all that decisive. As long as a threshold of hit points is reached (at least 400), you should do fine. As 400 hp is not hard to reach, even for a rogue, a rogue is not severely more gear dependent than other classes. Moreover, most rogue gear is easy to obtain because it can be crafted or bought.

[WirelessJoe]

...the only gear my rogue's dependent on is a good set of thieves' tools.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Traps (more so at lvls 5-10ish) is what makes you the most gear intensive IMO.

You need an item for Spot, Search, DD, OL, Tools, Int(fox's), maybe Wis and Dex. Heroism/GH. Maybe Find Traps scrolls.

The you need a way to get through the trap to get to the box.
Saves item, Jump pots, resists/prot pots.
Invis scrolls.

Add stealth items.

Then think about all the cool things you can do with UMD!
Scrolls of Blur, Displacement, Invis, Raise Dead, restoration, teleport. (DDoor)
Fire Shield. Wands of resist lvl 11, Prot lvl 10, Stone skin, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Blindness.



And as powerful as Rogue SA damage is, if you want to not be a total gimp aganst SA immune mobs, you need to have the right weps..... much more so than the 80 Str raging Barb standing next to you...who only need one great axe to kill anything in the game.

Greater Elemental, Construct, and Undead Banes.
Smiters, Disruptors.


Yep...pretty gear intensive IMO.

[destiny4405]

if 80% of a rogue's performance comes from his gear, then, with a good build, even a monkey could play it

[Artos_Fabril]

if 80% of a rogue's performance comes from his gear, then, with a good build, even a monkey could play it

Or to put it more accurately: If you've got the gear to raise your rogue's performance by 400%, you can play like a Barb.

[donfilibuster]

Keeping appropiate skill gear can get a bit costly for a new player but can divert some of the plat normally used on weapons and armor towards it, since you can do well with sneak attack and robes if built for that.

Luckily the new crafting will alleviate some of it, since leveling crafting on a rogue can be focused on the skill gear.
Not that it's too difficult to get regular or named skill gear, there's plenty and AH prices are not too high for those.
But at least the new rogues have that option.

[dingal]

Interesting thread and topic.

I've just taken my first rogue to cap and I am normally a barb guy and like that style of play.

Rogues are certainly gear dependent. I rolled a pure Str Assasin Horc build and dumped int, wisdom and charisma.

I can easily no-fail heal scrolls but to do so I need:
1. Greater Heroism
2. Epic Spyglass Tier 3 (+3 UMD stacking)
3. Bunny Hat (+3 UMD Competence hidden bonus)
4. DT Armor with +3 Charisma Skills and +6 charisma

I can hit 60 or above in search, spot, disable and open lock but to do so I need:
(Note that I had no issues getting any epic traps I tried while only able to hit a 54 disable score so 60 might be overkill)
1. Epic Spyglass +20 spot and search
2. Epic Raven's Sight Set (+3 stacking search and spot)
3. Epic Utility Vest +20 Open Lock +20 Disable
4. +6 Int item

I personally prefer a very self relient toon so I choose not to swap gear for UMD right now. I wear my UMD DT armor 100% of the time and my spyglass 100% of the time instead of swapping when I want to do something. This allows me to hit near instant heal scrolls, raise dead scrolls and buff scrolls merely by equipping and casting the scroll. Other folks may find their inventory extremely clogged with their UMD swap set + their pure DPS set + their trapping set.

For DPS I find my DPS to be extremely good even with my choice to not wear a bloodstone in favor of UMD swap and to not wear additional guards etc on my DT Armor.

I carry:
1. Rad II Khopesh
2. Min II Khopesh
3. +5 Met of PG Khopesh
4. 2x +3 anarchic burst of Greater Elemental Bane Khopeshes

Prior to finishing my GS I carried what seemed like 100 khopeshes for various situations so that felt very gear dependent as well.

Right now this is a first life toon that has existed for less than 2 months so I haven't had a ton of time to focus on his gear but I've got a pretty decent loadout for now until I get some better items.

I carry:
1. Epic Ravens Talons (Gloves)
2. Epic Raven's Sight (Goggles)
3. Epic Necklace of Venom (Neck)
4. Epic Ring of Venom (Ring)
5. Epic Spyglass (Trinket)
6. Tharne's Goggles (Retired)
7. Knost's Belt (for GFL and +6 con) (Belt)
8. Kormor's for dancing people (Belt)
9. Draconic Neck (GH) (Neck)
10. Planar Gird (GH) (Belt)
11. Jump belt (TOD) (Belt)
12. Striding Ring with Large Alignment Slot for +20HP (Ring)
13. Striding boots (Yep, 2 striding items, these are 30% for run speed) (Ring)
14. Epic Utility Vest (For traps) (Armor)
15. DT Armor +3 Cha Skills, +6 Cha, Earthgrab
16. Cloak of Resistance
17. Envenomed Cloak (Just need to craft)
18. +6 Str Bracers (temporary and perhaps redundant, ideally these will be claw bracers for fort and exceptional con)
19. Spectral Gloves (Situational)
20. Whisper Ring (Don't have yet)
21. Ravager Ring (Don't have yet)
22. Ravager Belt
23. Assasin Belt
24. Rad II Khop
24. Min II Khop
26. +5 Met PG Khop
27. +3 Anarchic Burst of Greater Ele Bane X2
28. Lots of situational disruptors etc
29. Sometimes epic smallblades (I share these with aother toon)

and that's not everything. So yeah, rogues carry a lot of **** and if you dump int you're going to need even more ****.

The level of gear dependence is directly correlated to your desire to be a pure DPS ape, a trap-monkey or a generalist that does an extremely high amount of DPS.

I'm more in the latter camp and that requires me to carry a lot of different gear.

[voodoogroves]

Interesting thread and topic.

I've just taken my first rogue to cap and I am normally a barb guy and like that style of play.

Rogues are certainly gear dependent. I rolled a pure Str Assasin Horc build and dumped int, wisdom and charisma.

I can easily no-fail heal scrolls but to do so I need:
1. Greater Heroism
2. Epic Spyglass Tier 3 (+3 UMD stacking)
3. Bunny Hat (+3 UMD Competence hidden bonus)
4. DT Armor with +3 Charisma Skills and +6 charisma

I can hit 60 or above in search, spot, disable and open lock but to do so I need:
(Note that I had no issues getting any epic traps I tried while only able to hit a 54 disable score so 60 might be overkill)
1. Epic Spyglass +20 spot and search
2. Epic Raven's Sight Set (+3 stacking search and spot)
3. Epic Utility Vest +20 Open Lock +20 Disable
4. +6 Int item

I personally prefer a very self relient toon so I choose not to swap gear for UMD right now. I wear my UMD DT armor 100% of the time and my spyglass 100% of the time instead of swapping when I want to do something. This allows me to hit near instant heal scrolls, raise dead scrolls and buff scrolls merely by equipping and casting the scroll. Other folks may find their inventory extremely clogged with their UMD swap set + their pure DPS set + their trapping set.

For DPS I find my DPS to be extremely good even with my choice to not wear a bloodstone in favor of UMD swap and to not wear additional guards etc on my DT Armor.

I carry:
1. Rad II Khopesh
2. Min II Khopesh
3. +5 Met of PG Khopesh
4. 2x +3 anarchic burst of Greater Elemental Bane Khopeshes

Prior to finishing my GS I carried what seemed like 100 khopeshes for various situations so that felt very gear dependent as well.

Right now this is a first life toon that has existed for less than 2 months so I haven't had a ton of time to focus on his gear but I've got a pretty decent loadout for now until I get some better items.

I carry:
1. Epic Ravens Talons (Gloves)
2. Epic Raven's Sight (Goggles)
3. Epic Necklace of Venom (Neck)
4. Epic Ring of Venom (Ring)
5. Epic Spyglass (Trinket)
6. Tharne's Goggles (Retired)
7. Knost's Belt (for GFL and +6 con) (Belt)
8. Kormor's for dancing people (Belt)
9. Draconic Neck (GH) (Neck)
10. Planar Gird (GH) (Belt)
11. Jump belt (TOD) (Belt)
12. Striding Ring with Large Alignment Slot for +20HP (Ring)
13. Striding boots (Yep, 2 striding items, these are 30% for run speed) (Ring)
14. Epic Utility Vest (For traps) (Armor)
15. DT Armor +3 Cha Skills, +6 Cha, Earthgrab
16. Cloak of Resistance
17. Envenomed Cloak (Just need to craft)
18. +6 Str Bracers (temporary and perhaps redundant, ideally these will be claw bracers for fort and exceptional con)
19. Spectral Gloves (Situational)
20. Whisper Ring (Don't have yet)
21. Ravager Ring (Don't have yet)
22. Ravager Belt
23. Assasin Belt
24. Rad II Khop
24. Min II Khop
26. +5 Met PG Khop
27. +3 Anarchic Burst of Greater Ele Bane X2
28. Lots of situational disruptors etc
29. Sometimes epic smallblades (I share these with aother toon)

and that's not everything. So yeah, rogues carry a lot of **** and if you dump int you're going to need even more ****.

The level of gear dependence is directly correlated to your desire to be a pure DPS ape, a trap-monkey or a generalist that does an extremely high amount of DPS.

I'm more in the latter camp and that requires me to carry a lot of different gear.

And you didn't even talk about the stacks of scrolls and wands ...

invisibility
shield
fire shield
teleport
stoneskin
etc.
etc.
etc.

[dingal]

And you didn't even talk about the stacks of scrolls and wands ...

invisibility
shield
fire shield
teleport
stoneskin
etc.
etc.
etc.

Yep there are days I find my inventory nearly full with nothing but locked items. I have soooo many stacks of different scrolls and they are about to be augmented with Circle of Death scrolls starting tomorrow!