Our turn next update Devs please! - Finesse builds

[DevHead]

Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

I'm pretty sure that's his point, Shade.

And by the way, not true. My Dex/Wis Dark Monk is quite good with DPS, thank you very much, Mr. Smarty Pants.

[Nodia]

I will take what little DPS they have left rather than have the DEV team work(nerf) them. Seems that is all they are able to do now is dumb down or nerf things.

[Coldin]

suggested change to the Weapon Finesse Feat

1. As per the current Feat, the subject Dex Modifier is used in place of his Strength Modifier for melee attacks with Light and Finesse based Weapons (ie Daggers Short Swords Rapiers etc) when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier

2. Dexterity Modifier replaces Strength Modifier for purposes of calculating the DCs of Tactical Feats when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

3. On Confirmed Critical Hits the subject adds his Dexterity Modifier to has Damage, before the critical multipliers, when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

This third benefit would obviously suffer the same liitations that other Crit effects suffer from. This however should remain at least beneficial without overpowering this type of build. The underlined section will prevent gratuitous use of the feat by non Dex based builds


As the feat currently stands it does not help a dex based build to the extent that it should expecially since there are more ways of gaining Strength than dexterity and thus oft times the feat ends up rendered useless for extended durations. This costs a character a feat and should not lead people to create a WEAKER character. The AC benefit ONLY helps in a very limited number of builds and the feat should actually strengthen builds not lead to inherantly weaker builds.

Aesop

Technically, #1 and #2 couldn't be abused by strength builds, since there would be no reason to use their dex bonuses in the first place.

I still like #3 the best honestly, because it feels more like a dex thing. Instead of making players have to have Dex higher than Str, it could just be a very high base dex requirement. Say 19 base dex. That would stop most min-maxed builds from picking it up.

[Missing_Minds]

One might also ask why he's using daggers....

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

very first one.

[Peo]

I think Resist Poison should be empowered. Let's face it; with Poison Immunity items, spells, potions, races, and outright trap/attack avoidance this feat deserves more attention than anything else.

Oh Turbine. Please don't make me feel like an idiot for picking the wrong feats and why should I be penalized for building contrary to my goal. Instead tweak the entire game to fit me. Just like you did with arcanes becoming DPSers.

[Aesop]

Technically, #1 and #2 couldn't be abused by strength builds, since there would be no reason to use their dex bonuses in the first place.

I still like #3 the best honestly, because it feels more like a dex thing. Instead of making players have to have Dex higher than Str, it could just be a very high base dex requirement. Say 19 base dex. That would stop most min-maxed builds from picking it up.

I was going towards all three parts combined. You are trading out combat styles afterall.

Unless Dex Mod did something more amazing than its current Reflex and AC (which is a very marginal thing on most builds) Strength and damage mitigation by way of killing it faster will always win out and making a Finesse build is just kinda pointless. A strength build will always have a higher DPS than a Finesse build and that's fine... provided Finesse has it strong place as well.


So unless you want Dex mod to add to % damage Mitigation (a'la Shield Mastery) then we need to give Finesse a better damage potential than it currently has. The POSSIBLE AC benefit is not sufficient even with the Reflex benefit. Then again, even with further damage mitigation potential for Dex Over Heal and DPS will always outweigh the Finesse potential.

Aesop

[Aesop]

I think Resist Poison should be empowered. Let's face it; with Poison Immunity items, spells, potions, races, and outright trap/attack avoidance this feat deserves more attention than anything else.

Oh Turbine. Please don't make me feel like an idiot for picking the wrong feats and why should I be penalized for building contrary to my goal. Instead tweak the entire game to fit me. Just like you did with arcanes becoming DPSers.

Straw Man much?

[Jacoby]

We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

Dude, lol... Can't stop laughing. You did get balanced, several Mods ago. Let me re-inform you...

Series of events

1) Peeps complained that Rangers were second class citizens and that TWF'ing really wasn't all it should be.

2) Turbine gave us Tempest PRE

3) Turbine game us Monks

4) Tubine giveth and Turbine taketh away

5) Turbine nerfs Wounding Puncturing weapons

6) Turbine removes last attack combat animation from Rangers and Monks which has an adverse effect on TWF animations and slowed Tempest which further impacts the TWF types but not the monks. A reevaluation never happens and were stuck with it...

7) Everyone complains to thin air but revert to THF Barbarian builds.

8) Dex build Rangers back to being second class citizens.

End of Story

[sephiroth1084]

I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.

As for tacking on the cost of a feat or enhancement...

Another possible solution would be to just remove Weapon Finesse from the game; finessable weapons would simply use whichever mod was higher automatically.

I think the extra feat requirement is one of the biggest problems with dex builds, especially for feat starved classes like rogues. If it weren't for that, I think it would be a decent-ish trade off: ~2-3 AC/reflex saves for 2-3 damage/some to hit.

The way I see it, there are two possible solutions to the problem at hand:

1. Weapon Finesse gets another mechanic added to it, which could be using Dex for damage, some special Dex-based effect added to attacks or Dex for increased attack speed--for the record, I think this is an awful suggestion, as it is incredibly difficult to balance both at present and in regards to any future additions or changes to other parts of the game.
2. The devs find some way to properly balance AC for the endgame, which among other things has the benefit of making focusing on Dex actually mean something again without changing any other mechanics.

Personally, while I agree that Dex-based toons need something, I don't think that simply giving them Dex to damage is a realistic solution mostly because it makes some types of characters quite a bit stronger, even, than their Str-based counterparts. Compare, for example, a Str-based rogue to a Dex-based rogue w/ Dex to damage: the former has to, at minimum split its Str and Dex at around 14/14 (more likely 15/15 or 16/16), while the latter could go 12/18 or 12/20, netting better use of build points, in addition to better Reflex, important skills and AC. Sure, it costs a feat, which is an issue certainly, but I'm not sure it's quite an even trade at that point. The fact that characters continue to go Dex-based without being gimps seems to indicate to me that the difference in power, at least for some characters, isn't as big a gap as some would like to believe.

But maybe the cost of a feat is big enough to justify that kind of swing. Maybe tack on a 2 or 4 AP cost as well, unlocked by the feat that gives the Dex to damage? Is the cost of having to use weaker weapons, in general, added to the feat cost enough to balance that? Maybe.

[Iwinbyrollup]

Straw Man much?

While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.

[Iwinbyrollup]

But maybe the cost of a feat is big enough to justify that kind of swing. Maybe tack on a 2 or 4 AP cost as well, unlocked by the feat that gives the Dex to damage? Is the cost of having to use weaker weapons, in general, added to the feat cost enough to balance that? Maybe.

Keep in mind that the single highest damage weapon type for 100% fort mobs is Finesse-usable (Unarmed on monks). Another Finesse weapon (Rapier) is getting a proxy-buff in U9 through the new helpless mechanics, and rapiers are, as well as scimitars which they are identical to in every way except damage type, a solid choice for TWF DPS toons, even if falling behind khopeshes.

Finesse rogues or rangers with rapiers, Finesse monks...yeah. MOST of the Finesse weapons aren't great, but there are definitely some good options.

[sephiroth1084]

While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.

That all assumes that your AC is actually preventing damage, which at this point is highly content-dependent. If you're running Gianthold, it probably is. If you're running epic whatever, it probably isn't. Also, notable, is the difficult in acquiring enough Dex-based AC to be relevant without monk levels. Is it doable? Maybe, but is certainly not attractive.

[sephiroth1084]

Keep in mind that the single highest damage weapon type for 100% fort mobs is Finesse-usable (Unarmed on monks). Another Finesse weapon (Rapier) is getting a proxy-buff in U9 through the new helpless mechanics, and rapiers are, as well as scimitars which they are identical to in every way except damage type, a solid choice for TWF DPS toons, even if falling behind khopeshes.

Finesse rogues or rangers with rapiers, Finesse monks...yeah. MOST of the Finesse weapons aren't great, but there are definitely some good options.

Well, fists are another matter, though they are part of the reason I mentioned Dex to damage may be too much.

As for the other weapons, we tend to have more DR/slashing or blunt than DR/piercing to worry about in the game. The finessable options aren't awful, but they are definitely worse than the non-finessable choices. As for weapons in general, I was more thinking about the difference between rapiers and khopeshes. Both styles cost a feat, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency is gaining quite a bit more in the DPS department than Weapon Finesse is. That said, I don't think the difference is big enough to justify increasing the Dex build's damage per swing by so much in addition to the other benefits that come with a high Dex.

[Iwinbyrollup]

That all assumes that your AC is actually preventing damage, which at this point is highly content-dependent. If you're running Gianthold, it probably is. If you're running epic whatever, it probably isn't. Also, notable, is the difficult in acquiring enough Dex-based AC to be relevant without monk levels. Is it doable? Maybe, but is certainly not attractive.

Yeah, definitely easiest with monk levels.

I admit that I wasn't talking about epic content. With the currently-unknown changes to epic, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, in this regard is changed.

If ALL you're doing is running Epic, then Finesse builds lose a lot there. Adding content other than epic increases their usefulness. That said, I'm not sure that all builds are meant for epic. I certainly have created builds that I wouldn't take into most epic quests unless specifically requested despite having fun with them because they weren't designed for that. I would be willing to take a Finesse build into epic so long as it isn't completely unable to get things done.

Well, fists are another matter, though they are part of the reason I mentioned Dex to damage may be too much.

As for the other weapons, we tend to have more DR/slashing or blunt than DR/piercing to worry about in the game. The finessable options aren't awful, but they are definitely worse than the non-finessable choices. As for weapons in general, I was more thinking about the difference between rapiers and khopeshes. Both styles cost a feat, but Exotic Weapon Proficiency is gaining quite a bit more in the DPS department than Weapon Finesse is. That said, I don't think the difference is big enough to justify increasing the Dex build's damage per swing by so much in addition to the other benefits that come with a high Dex.

I assumed when you said you thought it would be too much that you had unarmed in mind. The slashing/blunt issue is true though and a good point; piercing comes in the form of some magical spiders and rakshasas, if I recall, and not much else. Slashing/blunt will be a bigger deal if we get more undead-related endgame content.

Exotic does beat out Finesse, but as you note, changing it to improve DPS might really mess things up here.

I think we're roughly on the same page. I wouldn't mind a buff to Weapon Finesse to make it more useful (as noted, my monk is Finesse--I wouldn't complain about a boost), but it certainly has its purposes and I personally don't think buffing damage is the way to go.

[Aesop]

While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.

Combat Expertise is useful for pretty much ANY AC build. Many Shot and Bow Strength are THE FEATs for a ranged build... and more to the point each of those Increase the Damage potential of the style.

Weapon Finesse supports the notion that a Dex based Melee combatant is effective. While not only failing to create that situation, it reduces the number of Feat slots the character have available. Thereby further reducing the potential DPS. If the Feat didn't exist and Finesse fighting just happened when the conditions of Light/finesse weapon use and DEx Mod exceeding Strength Mod then there wouldn't be an issue... but this costs a feat for a lower potential.

Given this I would say your sentence

"A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful."

actually applies to Weapon Finesse. People use it, but the builds would be improved by dropping their Dex a little and upping their Strength and dropping the weapon finesse feat. A Loss of 1-3 AC and increasing DPS AND gaining a Feat back is more than worth it.


mmm...tired... bed night

[bigolbear]

the only problem with weapon finese high dex builds is that end game AC is meaningless and decent reflex saves can be achieved through heavy gearing, multiclassing and buffs. (my battle cleric with 8 dex has a passable evasion save)

to fix the balance issue with weapon finesse you have to fix end game AC.

mid game and low lvls a finesse build works just fine, sure the dps is lower but the survivability is much higher.

@ chai
what you said about using dex to hit, yes your right but i dont think it would work for ddo the way it is. Ive been experimenting in pen and paper using str mod + half dex mod for damage and dex mod + half str mod for to hit. this seems to work well.

[Asketes]

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. daggers huh?


Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30. Strength?......

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?Wondering why you are using daggers and not rapiers or something, those are finesse able right?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed. You cannot finesse a khopesh

come on dev's show us some love too.

They should never be on par DPS for DPS. It'd be neat to allow those who are not so strength inclined but still want to poke and prod, to offer something to the party. MAYBE.

While I think the OP is vastly off the mark in where finesse builds should stand, they downright as effective as S&B at the moment.

[Thar]

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. daggers huh? my point while extreme was to show that any weapon choice should be viable. just like any spell choice now should be useable.

Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30. Strength?...... Why does every fighter need to have max str? 30-40 vs 100-300 is too big a gap that it should be balanced.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?Wondering why you are using daggers and not rapiers or something, those are finesse able right? yes, see point 1 above.

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed. You cannot finesse a khopesh. this is my point, to present an option for finesse builds that keeps them viable vs str builds but still below in dps since they get some ac benefit although it's debatable if it's useful (espec non monk splash).

come on dev's show us some love too.They should never be on par DPS for DPS. It'd be neat to allow those who are not so strength inclined but still want to poke and prod, to offer something to the party. MAYBE. why shouldn't other builds be viable? why have feats like finesse, CE, dodge in game if no benefit? Why have spells in game with no benefit. oh wait they are fixing that.

Drizzt is more dex based than str so should that build not be viable? it is in pnp. It was in ddo previously until all the changes.

[uthanak69]

How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Those Barbs actually put points into STR.

Try it someday

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, definitely easiest with monk levels.

I admit that I wasn't talking about epic content. With the currently-unknown changes to epic, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, in this regard is changed.

If ALL you're doing is running Epic, then Finesse builds lose a lot there. Adding content other than epic increases their usefulness. That said, I'm not sure that all builds are meant for epic. I certainly have created builds that I wouldn't take into most epic quests unless specifically requested despite having fun with them because they weren't designed for that. I would be willing to take a Finesse build into epic so long as it isn't completely unable to get things done.



I assumed when you said you thought it would be too much that you had unarmed in mind. The slashing/blunt issue is true though and a good point; piercing comes in the form of some magical spiders and rakshasas, if I recall, and not much else. Slashing/blunt will be a bigger deal if we get more undead-related endgame content.

Exotic does beat out Finesse, but as you note, changing it to improve DPS might really mess things up here.

I think we're roughly on the same page. I wouldn't mind a buff to Weapon Finesse to make it more useful (as noted, my monk is Finesse--I wouldn't complain about a boost), but it certainly has its purposes and I personally don't think buffing damage is the way to go.

I had a finesse rogue and a finesse monk. The rogue just got TR'ed to Str-based, and the monk is slated to maybe go the same route. That said, I don't think finesse builds are that far behind Str-based characters, but they are in need of a boost. The rogue I actually prefer as a Dex-based toon, I think, except that I'd rather have the rogue PL feat than Weapon Finesse, and pure rogue instead of 19/1 fighter or monk.