Our turn next update Devs please! - Finesse builds

[Thar]

We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

[protokon]

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe.

huh?

[Shade]

Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

[Lithic]

I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.

[AtomicMew]

Another possible solution would be to just remove Weapon Finesse from the game; finessable weapons would simply use whichever mod was higher automatically.

I think the extra feat requirement is one of the biggest problems with dex builds, especially for feat starved classes like rogues. If it weren't for that, I think it would be a decent-ish trade off: ~2-3 AC/reflex saves for 2-3 damage/some to hit.

[TreknaQudane]

All said a Finesse character should only be down 5 points of damage on average from a STR character. While it does add up, it's not that much to warrant a redesign of the entire idea. If you made a finesse character without respecting your STR score still you deserve a nerf.

Your Trade off is -5 Damage for +5 AC (usually) and +5 Reflex.

Big freaking whoop.

[Scraap]

Eh, ya don't go dex-to-the-point-of-needing-finesse for melee assault. You do it as

a- Backup on a ranged toon
or
b- Pure survivability (discounting that a dead mob deals no damage)

That being said, finesse adding dex mod to the DC of weapon effects would serve to reinforce the control nature of the style, I should think. (Granted, now we've got even fewer DC based weapons...)

[SableShadow]

huh?

Belkar. Phear him!

[shortdevils]

finese builds shouldnt be dps builds.

what needs fixing is the Ac or some other, more worthwhile benefit should be gotten of being a finese..

[Chai]

I still say D&D should have used dex as to-hit mod in all cases and str as damage mod in all cases. Other games do this with decent levels of success.

Doesnt matter what the size and weight of a weapon is, lack of coordination = poor martial arts skill, where lack of strength can be made up for with a well smithed weapon and good footwork.

A real life high end Katana for instance can cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally with little effort involved, other than the correct technique being applied when the attack happens.

A quarterstaff which is basically a chinese white oak tree trunk with the bark taken off, and then treated, can be wielded with good enough technique to generate more pressure by middle school kids in practice, who certainly dont even have their full strength as of yet, than some of the packer football players who were training in the same class.

As far as the game is concerned, having one stat that does both means min maxing for that stat, and using metagaming to cover up any weakness, if any, caused by the min factor in min maxing. It doesnt surprise me that we build for strength and hit just enough dex to meet any requirements for the build and thats it. Whe you tie so much power to one stat, it doesnt surprise me at all that we min max for it.

[Gkar]

I'd be a pretty easy fix.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Light weapons use your dex bonus instead of strength bonus for damage.

2 feats to let you dump Str? Seems pretty fair considering you would still be at the mercy of carrying capacity, easily reduced to 0 str by ray of enfeebling/shadows, lose out on powerattack (probably), and you can't pump dex as high as strength anyway. If another feat is too costly, maybe a 4AP enhancement unlocked by weapon finesse.

Interesting approach. Another would be to give a speed boost to finesse builds based on their dex. It might be more "on flavor".

[shortdevils]

I still say D&D should have used dex as to-hit mod in all cases and str as damage mod in all cases. Other games do this with decent levels of success.

Doesnt matter what the size and weight of a weapon is, lack of coordination = poor martial arts skill, where lack of strength can be made up for with a well smithed weapon and good footwork.

A real life high end Katana for instance can cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally with little effort involved, other than the correct technique being applied when the attack happens.

A quarterstaff which is basically a chinese white oak tree trunk with the bark taken off, and then treated, can be wielded with good enough technique to generate more pressure by middle school kids in practice, who certainly dont even have their full strength as of yet, than some of the packer football players who were training in the same class.

As far as the game is concerned, having one stat that does both means min maxing for that stat, and using metagaming to cover up any weakness, if any, caused by the min factor in min maxing. It doesnt surprise me that we build for strength and hit just enough dex to meet any requirements for the build and thats it. Whe you tie so much power to one stat, it doesnt surprise me at all that we min max for it.

this is acutally a great idea but the "this isnt dnd anymore" guys will wail on the devs so...thats down the drain.

[Kathul]

Dexterity based builds are done for obvious reasons. Will I list them, NO, cause if you don't know then it's your fault.

Strength based builds are just as obvious.

And THAT is the balance, if you want one thing, you can't have the other. Or you find a nice in between of both.

[Trippy]

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe.

and

Belkar. Phear him!

Er, Belkar (probably, stats are unpublished last I checked) is not a Finesse build, his str is as high, or higher then his dex. Why would a high dex build splash Barbarian for Rage or take the Sunder feat?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219

[SableShadow]

Why would a high dex build splash Barbarian for Rage or take the Sunder feat?

One might also ask why he's using daggers....

Also, note I was simply responding to "Huh?" from another poster...I don't really have it in me to debate Belkar's stats, neither 2nd Ed nor 3rd.

[Chai]

this is acutally a great idea but the "this isnt dnd anymore" guys will wail on the devs so...thats down the drain.

And they did, even as far back as old school gen cons and the like when I tried to bring this up to some of the game designers and book authors in the late 80s early 90s etc. All of the "system mastery" folks (min maxers) were all up in a tizzy about it. I even did both types of staff forms for some of them - the THF style where you grab the weapon at one end and the TWF style (flowering) where both ends are equidistant from the middle which is being propelled by the continuous turning of the waist, which when done right kind of works like a fulcrum-lever-gear set up.

Didnt matter in the end - they still put all that power on one stat, so it doesnt suprise me that we can make 8 dex 80 str toons, and they succeed, heh.

[Kantare]

I don't think that the problem is necessary with finesse dex builds or strength builds, I think the problem is with the actual weapon selection. As it stands there is absolutely no reason to dual wield anything other than khopeshes, or dwarven axes (if you are a dwarf). Everything else is pathetic in comparison. As a fix I really like the idea that the OP had, make finesseable weapons faster.

So let's make it like this. Take Finesse as a feat at lvl 1. Take Combat Expertise as a feat at lvl 3. When hit lvl 4 a new enhancment pops up and for a measly 2 AP you can start upgrading the attack speed of finesseable weapons. Enhancement might look something like this.

2 AP - Speed of Finesse I: Your control over lighter weapons makes you a veritable tornado of steel. You now have a 3% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon.
3 AP - Speed of Finesse II (Requires Character Level 8): You further your mastery of light weapons and now receive a total of a 6% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon.
4 AP - Speed of Finesse III (Requires Character Level 12): Your mastery over light weapons is almost unparalleled. You now receive a total of a 10% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon.
6 AP - Speed of Finesse IV (Requires Character Level 18): Your study of tactical positioning and speed with light weapons has made you far deadlier than you could have ever imagine. You now have a total 25% chance to double strike with any weapon that is considered a "Finesse" weapon. This bonus increases to 40% when wielding a dagger.

This would make a Finesse build completely viable as DPS, as you would still sacrifice HP and such and being on the front lines would still be far more dangerous than if you were to play the other melees like fighter, barb, or pally. However, requiring two feats and a steep upgrade cost to the 4th enhancement as well as level requirements ensure that it is balanced and will not be abused by the above mentioned fighter types. Unless someone REALLY had their heart set on a finesse fighter (wierd but whatever)

[Coldin]

Something should probably be done. Either by making Dex more valuable (AC and reflex saves more important), or by at least omitting the weapon finesse feat.

But unless changes to Dex builds could be accomplished easily, I'd rather see attention devoted to Bow-user builds first.

[Iwinbyrollup]

We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

As a Dex build, you get AC.

Oh, you said that AC doesn't count. Fine, AC doesn't count. So, here's a question: if Finesse builds are just downright 100% worse with absolutely no advantages over strength builds, then why build one? (If you reply to just this comment without reading the rest, you'll feel silly)

Thinking on that question for a moment. Obviously, one possible answer is you don't like "cookie cutter" builds. And that's okay. But it's hardly the case that all high strength characters are cookie cutter. Compare a strength rogue to barb to fighter to paladin to tempest to AA ranger to all the multiclasses out there, of which there are too many to mention. All can be predominantly strength and there are a lot of significant differences both within each build and between the different builds. Plus, if you go high strength, you don't NEED to play a half-orc. Because there's a difference between "high strength" and "highest strength". The argument that a max strength build is cookie cutter is ultimately not correct; sure, you can go Dex just to be different, but if Dex is inferior in every way, then why not make a dumped Str, high Int/Wis pure Barbarian? That's certainly different, and it's certainly inferior in every way (well, except Will save).

What it comes down to: there are reasons people go for Dex and make Finesse builds but don't go for high Int/Wis Barbs. They get something out of the former that they want (TWF, or rogue skills, or AC, or bow to-hit). In other words, it's not the case that Finesse builds are just downright 100% worse than Strength builds. They are worse DPS, but they have other things that people want. Building a character is ultimately working with scarcity. You have limited ability points, feats, action points, skill points, levels, class selections, and equipment slots. With your limits, you have to make decisions. Going Finesse is one possible decision that has some benefits and some disadvantages.

I would agree with the idea that in the current game setting, the disadvantages of Finesse are fairly significant and may outweigh the advantages (although not by much). That said, making Finesse an option on par with non-Finesse in terms of DPS kills the decision-making process. Seriously. My Finesse Monk would LOVE a change like that, but it would make any hard decisions easy and that's not ideal--building a character SHOULD be about making tough decisions.

(I was actually somewhat surprised when I was working on building a barbarian, who is currently sitting at level 6 if I ever add more characters to my mainstays. Feat selection AND AP selection were both much tighter than I'd expect from a class that I hear toted around as being the easiest class to play, as well as the one commonly thrown out in derisive comments when people have difficulty with any other class. And I really liked that about it, but I had 6 other characters that were higher priority than that one so he sits at 6 for now.)

[Aesop]

suggested change to the Weapon Finesse Feat

1. As per the current Feat, the subject Dex Modifier is used in place of his Strength Modifier for melee attacks with Light and Finesse based Weapons (ie Daggers Short Swords Rapiers etc) when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier

2. Dexterity Modifier replaces Strength Modifier for purposes of calculating the DCs of Tactical Feats when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

3. On Confirmed Critical Hits the subject adds his Dexterity Modifier to has Damage, before the critical multipliers, when the subjects Dex Modifier exceeds his Strength Modifier and using a Finesse Weapon

This third benefit would obviously suffer the same liitations that other Crit effects suffer from. This however should remain at least beneficial without overpowering this type of build. The underlined section will prevent gratuitous use of the feat by non Dex based builds


As the feat currently stands it does not help a dex based build to the extent that it should expecially since there are more ways of gaining Strength than dexterity and thus oft times the feat ends up rendered useless for extended durations. This costs a character a feat and should not lead people to create a WEAKER character. The AC benefit ONLY helps in a very limited number of builds and the feat should actually strengthen builds not lead to inherantly weaker builds.

Aesop