Our turn next update Devs please! - Finesse builds

[Thar]

We've seen Barbs, casters, s/b even get some updates to be more balanced in game.

It's time that the dex based twf finesse users are spoken for!

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe. Dev's you can do it. Everything else needs to be balanced so the dps is the same so everyone has fun, how about finesse builds. How fair is it if barbs do 100-300 a hit but we do 20-30.

Before anyone says well you have AC, well AC was nerf'd like a year ago... where have you been?

I suggest that finesse weapons get a weapon speed bonus based upon dex bonus or fixed by type. IE rapier 4%, short sword 5%, dagger 9%... Or finesse gives chance to doublestrike since you are faster at % bonuse = to the dex modifier?

This excludes those non finesse khopesh using builds so no omg they are too uber already discussion is needed.

come on dev's show us some love too.

[protokon]

That sexy shoeless god of war, the halfling ranger using daggers needs to be balanced with the raging barbarian with the big two handed axe.

huh?

[SableShadow]

huh?

Belkar. Phear him!

[Shade]

Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

[DevHead]

Finesse != dps

Want dps?
Reincarnate to strength build.

There is no other solution.

I'm pretty sure that's his point, Shade.

And by the way, not true. My Dex/Wis Dark Monk is quite good with DPS, thank you very much, Mr. Smarty Pants.

[Nodia]

I will take what little DPS they have left rather than have the DEV team work(nerf) them. Seems that is all they are able to do now is dumb down or nerf things.

[Peo]

I think Resist Poison should be empowered. Let's face it; with Poison Immunity items, spells, potions, races, and outright trap/attack avoidance this feat deserves more attention than anything else.

Oh Turbine. Please don't make me feel like an idiot for picking the wrong feats and why should I be penalized for building contrary to my goal. Instead tweak the entire game to fit me. Just like you did with arcanes becoming DPSers.

[Aesop]

I think Resist Poison should be empowered. Let's face it; with Poison Immunity items, spells, potions, races, and outright trap/attack avoidance this feat deserves more attention than anything else.

Oh Turbine. Please don't make me feel like an idiot for picking the wrong feats and why should I be penalized for building contrary to my goal. Instead tweak the entire game to fit me. Just like you did with arcanes becoming DPSers.

Straw Man much?

[Iwinbyrollup]

Straw Man much?

While the phrasing could have been done less rudely, it's a valid point: you say that Finesse needs more because Dex isn't useful on most builds, but why should Weapon Finesse be a feat that every melee should want or take? If all feat slots were taken up by "given" feats, that would be no fun.

Weapon Finesse is a feat that IS useful to some builds, which puts it far ahead of several feats, such as the mentioned Resist Poison, Snake Blood, most of the skill boosting feats (short of Skill Focus), Improved Fortification, Diehard, Brutal Throw, Power Critical, and Precision. For some builds, this feat is very nice as is.

Seriously. You say that it needs a boost, but your reason is because it's only useful for a few builds. Is that a problem? Combat Expertise is only useful for a few builds, should it be changed for that reason alone? There are many feats that the majority of players don't take; some of them because they're not useful feats, others because they're nice to have but generally less of a priority (see Enlarge and Augment Summoning, both of which are occasional choices for Wizards but rarely make the cut for any other casters), others because they're only useful for specific builds (Combat Expertise, Manyshot, Bow Strength). Weapon Finesse is useful, just for specific builds.

A feat being only useful for a few builds isn't a reason to change it. A feat being completely ill-advised in anything short of very specific situations where it's only not necessary (e.g., Improved Fortification) suggests a change may be useful.

A Finesse Monk with AC can be extremely powerful. Throw in enough Strength to do passable damage, good stun DCs, and Displacement...this build would be impossible without Finesse. Sure, you could do better DPS going strength-based, but what you lose in DPS on such a build, you gain in damage prevention.

[bigolbear]

the only problem with weapon finese high dex builds is that end game AC is meaningless and decent reflex saves can be achieved through heavy gearing, multiclassing and buffs. (my battle cleric with 8 dex has a passable evasion save)

to fix the balance issue with weapon finesse you have to fix end game AC.

mid game and low lvls a finesse build works just fine, sure the dps is lower but the survivability is much higher.

@ chai
what you said about using dex to hit, yes your right but i dont think it would work for ddo the way it is. Ive been experimenting in pen and paper using str mod + half dex mod for damage and dex mod + half str mod for to hit. this seems to work well.

[Aesop]

On the AC score... where is the AC benefit when there are mass cures being thrown around for over healing.

Add in passable Agro management and AC value drops again

[Missing_Minds]

Ah, choices to be made. And when things don't go your way you can do one of a few options.

1. complain and hope that maybe whining will cause changes.
2. present factual data for your case and attempt to make changes happen over a long period of time.
3. realize that is the choice you made for better or apparently worse,
a. adapt and become a better player.
b. TR and start over.
c. Lesser and fix the supposed issues with your character.

Finesse builds, in my opinion, lost true viability LONG LONG ago when the change to stat damaging was done. No, I'm not talking con death, I'm talking way before that, back when on hit caused stat damage, not on damage.

Now, nothing says Finesse builds can't vorpal with the rest of them, and guess what, come U9 you can again!

I do wonder how many of the people saying finesse needs changes are playing monk or rouge builds. I mean mostly monk builds get unarmed attacks that beat dr/- just from dice damage in a good chunck of cases, and rogues have sneak attack that really add in dps.

[SableShadow]

I do wonder how many of the people saying finesse needs changes are playing monk or rogue builds.

Edit in rouge.

[grodon9999]

Make AC viable throughout the whole game and these threads will stop popping up every 2-3 days.

It can be done now as we have SO much more DPS gear available from the past year that you give up a hell of a lot more DPS slotting for AC than you used to. Between Claw set (versus Epic Spectrals and AC 8 Bracers), Redscale (over Icy Rainments for PJ wearers), Holy/Burst/Blast versus an insight-weapon, and a second ToD set (say ravager over Chattering ring) we're talking 20+ a swing.

I still think a DEX-toon should swing faster, Weapon Finesse should give you stacking double-strike equal to your DEX bonus (as should Tempest III).

[Aesop]

I still think a DEX-toon should swing faster, Weapon Finesse should give you stacking double-strike equal to your DEX bonus (as should Tempest III).

I remember when that notion was put forth way back before Update 2.

A double strike chance equal to Dex Mod would be interesting... though that might be a bit high opwered... perhaps Half Dex Mod and only if you are using Dex for the attack.


Aesop

[BananaHat]

A ranged pass is supposed to be next, it was stated it would be next after the spell pass. Makes sense with deepwood sniper 2 coming up in the somewhat nearish future. (Along with ninja spy 3 I think)

[Asketes]

A ranged pass is supposed to be next, it was stated it would be next after the spell pass. Makes sense with deepwood sniper 2 coming up in the somewhat nearish future. (Along with ninja spy 3 I think)

I can see it now

Instead of beefing up ranged DPS, they will scale down all melee DPS to the same output as ranged.

/sigh

[scampb]

I have a dex based finesse Rogue, Wisspering (L17 now, sig not updated). She does just fine the way she is and does not need STR to be viable. I can lead, or be close to leading, kills in most quests (Monks still take me to town). Min/Max'ing aside, a dex based character can do just fine. You just need to know how to play them. I don't run into the room and grab all the agro or guess what...I'm dead. I follow the Barb/Fighter/Monk and let them get the agro, pop in behind and cut them down faster than a hot knife through butter. I use Rapiers and short swords too. Finesse is fine the way it is.

[Gnorbert]

To me, the problem is that there are not enough sources for boosting dex. If I'm dex based but do not ignore strength because I want to be able to actually do some damage... then at end game, when buffed, my strength will still often surpass my dex. At which point the weapon finesse feat is actually hurting my to-hit.

That should not happen.

[TreknaQudane]

At which point the weapon finesse feat is actually hurting my to-hit.

That should not happen.

That's because it DOES NOT HAPPEN

Finesse gives you use your Dexterity for your to Hit with Light Weapons (And Rapiers) If, and only If, it is higher than your Strength Score. If your STR ever surpasses your DEX, you'll switch back to using STR for your to hit.

One of the most annoying things I've run into are occasions like Breeze and Staff of Nat Gann that requires you use DEX for to hit and damage... Not an option, you use it even if it's detrimental to.