Is Tempest worth taking now?

[Chai]

Previous to the nerf in U5, TWF was 100% offhand proc rate for everyone, and taking the three TWF feats gave you extra hook attacks, plus Tempest itself gave 10% and more attacks. There is a rather large disparity in the rate of attack with normal weapons compared to where it used to be. There are more ways to get doublestrike however, and many of them stack. Some of that disparity is made up due to better gear.

6 levels of ranger used to be the best deep splash in the game. 10% haste (back when offhand was 100% proc), rams, 2 of the 3 twf feats, many shot, bow str, rapid shot, and 2 favored enemy. You had to burn three feats to get that haste, but it was worth it.

[Thaxlsillyia]

why would you waste 2 feats for invis and displace? invis is available in clickies and pots. and have not met a wiz/sorc who refuses to displace on request.

[JasonJi72]

Because it's the best ranger build out their. That's why it's been done to death, is "horribly out-dated" yet still does very well in the modern game.

I think wasting feats for invisibility and displacements is silly, you can get all of that with gear very easily and in the low-levels where you can't get that gear you simply don't need it.

Take the classic Exploiter build, drop Combat Expertise for a healing meta-magic, and don't look back.

I can't do a copy cat build. I wish I could, but I can't (I have tried). My builds have to be different and original, otherwise, I will not play them. Yeah, I know... it is a problem I have...

The thing about clickies is that if I have to switch an item to use it, switch back, then get back in the fight (by which time I will probably have to heal up), I lose a TON of dps. Invis is a waste I agree, but I think displacement has its uses.

[JasonJi72]

Previous to the nerf in U5, TWF was 100% offhand proc rate for everyone, and taking the three TWF feats gave you extra hook attacks, plus Tempest itself gave 10% and more attacks. There is a rather large disparity in the rate of attack with normal weapons compared to where it used to be. There are more ways to get doublestrike however, and many of them stack. Some of that disparity is made up due to better gear.

6 levels of ranger used to be the best deep splash in the game. 10% haste (back when offhand was 100% proc), rams, 2 of the 3 twf feats, many shot, bow str, rapid shot, and 2 favored enemy. You had to burn three feats to get that haste, but it was worth it.

So Chai, would a melee ranger be better off taking AA now?

[grodon9999]

I can't do a copy cat build. I wish I could, but I can't (I have tried). My builds have to be different and original, otherwise, I will not play them. Yeah, I know... it is a problem I have...

The thing about clickies is that if I have to switch an item to use it, switch back, then get back in the fight (by which time I will probably have to heal up), I lose a TON of dps. Invis is a waste I agree, but I think displacement has its uses.

Despite what some of the "builders" on this forum would lead you to believe making a good build is not rocket-science. it's just stat-distribution and feats, skills are variable depending on where you want to focus and the rest is gear. There's SO many gearing options these days that two people can start with the same "build" and end up with something completely different. Use a pre-fabbed build as a guildline and tweak it to make it your own.

How long and how many displacement charges do you get off the dragon marks? I agree it is a great spell but how much utility will you really get off of it? I'm asking as I simply don't know and equipping a clikie, using it, and equiping back the other item takes about a second.

I burn through displacement scrolls all the time in epics or elite Amrath. I have one hot-key set for the scroll, double tap it and another hot-key next to it set for whatever weapon-set I'll be using. I can usually pull it off while jumping towards the next gaggle of mobs I'll be fighting and you can keep yourself perpetually displaced this way as long as you aren't madstoned. Tier II GS goggles for those long fights when I'm madstoned.

[JasonJi72]

Despite what some of the "builders" on this forum would lead you to believe making a good build is not rocket-science. it's just stat-distribution and feats, skills are variable depending on where you want to focus and the rest is gear. There's SO many gearing options these days that two people can start with the same "build" and end up with something completely different. Use a pre-fabbed build as a guildline and tweak it to make it your own.

How long and how many displacement charges do you get off the dragon marks? I agree it is a great spell but how much utility will you really get off of it? I'm asking as I simply don't know and equipping a clikie, using it, and equiping back the other item takes about a second.

I burn through displacement scrolls all the time in epics or elite Amrath. I have one hot-key set for the scroll, double tap it and another hot-key next to it set for whatever weapon-set I'll be using. I can usually pull it off while jumping towards the next gaggle of mobs I'll be fighting and you can keep yourself perpetually displaced this way as long as you aren't madstoned. Tier II GS goggles for those long fights when I'm madstoned.

The dragonmarks will give me >5 per rest and last as long as a lvl 20 caster with extend (>3 min), and I can fit it in.

I really did not want to get into a whether or not to take displacement dragonmarks discussion, but to answer one question:

Is a melee ranger better off now taking Arcane Archer in lieu of Tempest?

[grodon9999]

Is a melee ranger better off now taking Arcane Archer in lieu of Tempest?

I already answered that

[Sirea]

Because it's the best ranger build out their. That's why it's been done to death, is "horribly out-dated" yet still does very well in the modern game.

I think wasting feats for invisibility and displacements is silly, you can get all of that with gear very easily and in the low-levels where you can't get that gear you simply don't need it.

Take the classic Exploiter build, drop Combat Expertise for a healing meta-magic, and don't look back.

Eh I dunno, I didn't particularly want to jump on the bandwagon and make an Exploiter when I rolled my ranger, so I went 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter and focused on DPS over AC. For her purpose, Zorya does very well holding her own against Kenseis and FBs in the DPS department.

Exploiter's a strong build, but it's by no means the end-all-be-all of Rangers. If the OP wants to make his own build, let him. Having said that, those two Dragonmark feats could be better spent elsewhere. You can get clickies and gear with Invis and concealment bonuses on them.

[grodon9999]

Eh I dunno, I didn't particularly want to jump on the bandwagon and make an Exploiter when I rolled my ranger, so I went 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter and focused on DPS over AC. For her purpose, Zorya does very well holding her own against Kenseis and FBs in the DPS department.

Exploiter's a strong build, but it's by no means the end-all-be-all of Rangers. If the OP wants to make his own build, let him. Having said that, those two Dragonmark feats could be better spent elsewhere. You can get clickies and gear with Invis and concealment bonuses on them.

Please, don't you know that rangers aren't DPS on our server?

Ignoring what monk brings to the table regarding AC and just focusing on DPS, the rogue level brings more DPS (via sneak attack) than you get over the two fighters levels. Haste boost is the same, full BAB is achieved via Madstone boots. That's not counting any of the utility gained by having full UMD available and the use of handwraps which are better blunt weapons than anything else.

Gear being equal, you get more bang for your buck with 18/1/1 than you do with 18/2. That does not in anyway mean the other choices are bad. The 12/7/1 builds blow both of ours away in potential DPS.

[unbongwah]

1. Toughness
2. Power Attack (Fighter)
3. Least Dragonmark (Invisibility)
4. Extend Spell (Wizard)
6. Lesser Dragonmark (displacement)
9. Improved Critical (Slashing)
12. Dodge
15. Mobility
18. Spring Attack

You do not have any of the Tempest III pre-req feats listed, which means you won't be able to take it. Also, I don't think it's so wise to back-load Tempest until lvl 18 that way. You can see my take on a rgr 18 / ftr 2 "Shadow Tempest" here.

I think wasting feats for invisibility and displacements is silly, you can get all of that with gear very easily and in the low-levels where you can't get that gear you simply don't need it.

Invisibility, I agree, is no big deal; but Displacement clickies are only available from the Shroud, IIRC. It takes some people quite a while to level up enough to hit the Shroud, and even longer to get around to crafting Displacement clickies after they've crafted their GS weapons etc. Lesser DM provides a non-arcane elf with extra protection for quite some time. Besides, there's no such thing as too many uses of Displacement in my book. And who doesn't want a cool glowing tattoo?

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Why am I not making an Exploiter Build or some variation... well I'm not sure... but I think... that has been... done before... more than once...

I used to have an Elf build that splashed 1 Wiz for Extend on the Dragonmark.

I eventually came to the conclusion that the DM length was plenty long enough without Extend. Extend was only useful at the low-to-mid levels. By 15-16 (cap at the time), I didn't need Extend. So I eventually went over to other Ranger builds.

A build like that actually suits AA more than Tempest, since you can take the bonus metamagic feat.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Is a melee ranger better off now taking Arcane Archer in lieu of Tempest?

No. In my opinion, if you want a melee Ranger, you go Tempest. 12/7/1 18/1/1 etc. whatever. At least Ranger 12 for the 100% offhand.

If you are concerned about the dps -- don't be -- a Tempest still can knock the hide off stuff, and do it quickly.

[yawumpus]

At ranger 12 you get 100% off hand hits (from tempest II, nobody else gets it). You also only need a dexterity of 13 (+2 enhancement points). Non-ranger 12 builds get to pay at 2 for 1 levels for dexterity (halflings and elves simply transfer this need to strength and constitution respectively). This is one of the big things about ranger 12.

At ranger 15 (with or without tempest) you get another favored enemy, +2 stacking damage to all favored enemies, and another +1 stacking damage enhancement option (enhancement may be at 14).

At tempest III, you get a doublestrike chance. Note that you have to be geared to the gills for this to have a chance to be better than fighter weapon specialization, but it is possible. The tempest set looks much more likely, and easily beats out any option when it otherwise lets you keep PA on (at that level, you have to turn it off if you can't it on a 2 with it on...).

Not taking tempest is a distinct possibility. I am afraid someone already posted a build with dexterity dumped (couldn't even take dodge), so I hope you can still use a build and pick your own favorite feats. 14 dexterity (you still need to make those reflex saves, and exploiters can use the AC bonus) and 3 feats typically seem worth it (although I really want imp. crit. ranged and improved healing), but it is up to you.

[Snormal]

By reading the description, it seems like Tempest III's do more damage than they did before (90% offhand chance with a 5% doublestrike); the animation just slowed down. I thought I was misreading it.

They now have 105/100 (% chance to proc an attack mainhand/offhand), and they used to have 110/137. It's been a significant downgrade for rangers. Tempest 3 used to give a 5th offhand attack in the 4 attack cycle.

[Alabore]

No. In my opinion, if you want a melee Ranger, you go Tempest. 12/7/1 18/1/1 etc. whatever. At least Ranger 12 for the 100% offhand.

I'm wondering whether Paladin 7 would be a viable choice in place of Fighter 7.
Would make the Tempest a bit sturdier, save-wise, but Cha is usually a dump stat, so Divine Might would be out of question.
KotC would add some extra dmg vs end-game foes.
Maybe considering synergy with scimitars on an elven blooded Tempest...

...

EDIT:

Yes, I have a pre-U5 Elven Ranger I've recently resumed playing, and I'm no longer sure a straight 18/1/1 would suit him much any more.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I'm wondering whether Paladin 7 would be a viable choice in place of Fighter 7.

Well it would lose Haste Boost (III), which is the nice thing about Fighter 7. Pally--now that would be different.

[grodon9999]

7 rogue yields the most damage in most situations

[daniel7]

Rangers apparently are the hardest class to balance for Turbine because they have ranged from completely gimped to awesome to the current status of not bad.
If you play a ranger you should utilize the features that TWF fighters and barbarians dont have...skills, buffs, self healing, some ranged combat, evasion, etc.

[Blazer]

I'm wondering whether Paladin 7 would be a viable choice in place of Fighter 7.

I'm planning on TRing my pure ranger into a 12 ranger/7 paladin/1 monk tempest 2/DoS 1 build after I finish acquiring his gear. It looks like a nice variation for an AC tank.