18 barb/2 fighter. Skip THF chain?

[crazydamage]

9 feats total

PA Cleave Imp Crit Toughness Stunning blow (5)

So that leaves THF< ITFH, GTHF + Toughness (4)
OR 4 toughness. (ignoring barb PL for now).

By skipping capstone to take haste boost/feats that "style" would seem more consistent with twitching ALL THE TIME and hence taking 4 toughness and skipping THF chain completely?

Has anyone tested taking THF vs not taking it on 18/2?

Which does more dmg: THF on 18/2 and standing still or skip THF and twitch

[Wraith_Sarevok]

The general fact now is that glancing blows add up to 50+% of your total static damage, and you get 3 of them. Twitching animation adds ~15% to attack speed but sacrifices glancing blows. It's agreed by most that glancing blows add more damage than twitching, EXCEPT when fighting against held enemies.

I twitch when I fight held enemies and use glancing blows against everything else for absolute maximum DPS. This strategy doesn't change with U9 because glancing blows aren't currently enhanced against held enemies.

Losing the chain really cripples your DPS against non-held trash, bosses, Oozes, Undead, Constructs, and Elementals: Things you will be fighting both early and often.

You really, really don't need 4 Toughness feats. That just detracts way too much from your damage output and Barbarians have enough trouble fitting in feats as it is. I've tanked everything up to and including Horoth on all difficulty levels with 1 or less Toughness feats on my Barbarian. It's just not necessary, especially with the massive amount of hit points you get from raging and up to 9 DR. Focus on Constitution and Toughness enhancements instead.

Toughness is something that belongs on a Fighter to compensate for the massive lack of CON that a Barbarian gets while raging.

[Shade]

4 toughness lol.

Here's a better arguement:

Improved Trip (and its lame prereq) and Quick draw vs THF line.. Much tougher one.

But the question you asked.. Is easy.

Whats more dps?
THF feats. By far.
You lose DPS by twitching. A significant amount.

[voodoogroves]

4 toughness lol.

Here's a better arguement:

Improved Trip (and its lame prereq) and Quick draw vs THF line.. Much tougher one.

But the question you asked.. Is easy.

Whats more dps?
THF feats. By far.
You lose DPS by twitching. A significant amount.

And twitching hurts your fingers. And my brain.

You lose even more DPS by saying you're going to twitch and not managing to do it all the time.

[ciopo]

9 feats total

PA Cleave Imp Crit Toughness Stunning blow (5)

So that leaves THF< ITFH, GTHF + Toughness (4)
OR 4 toughness. (ignoring barb PL for now).

aren't you already including one thoughness on the 5?

so for the other 4 one isn't a mandatory toughness.

I don't know your past lives, but that 4th could be PL:rogue or PLaladin if you have them or even PL:barb if they still haven't fixed it boosting your main rage.
Or quick draw, with 7/10(5+2barb+3horc?) boosts it adds up fast

[Forzah]

If you are going to skip all THF feats, why would you multiclass 2 fighter to get even more feats? Might as well go 18 barb/2 rogue then for sneak attack, haste boost and evasion.

[crazydamage]

The general fact now is that glancing blows add up to 50+% of your total static damage, and you get 3 of them. Twitching animation adds ~15% to attack speed but sacrifices glancing blows. It's agreed by most that glancing blows add more damage than twitching, EXCEPT when fighting against held enemies.

I twitch when I fight held enemies and use glancing blows against everything else for absolute maximum DPS. This strategy doesn't change with U9 because glancing blows aren't currently enhanced against held enemies.

Losing the chain really cripples your DPS against non-held trash, bosses, Oozes, Undead, Constructs, and Elementals: Things you will be fighting both early and often.

You really, really don't need 4 Toughness feats. That just detracts way too much from your damage output and Barbarians have enough trouble fitting in feats as it is. I've tanked everything up to and including Horoth on all difficulty levels with 1 or less Toughness feats on my Barbarian. It's just not necessary, especially with the massive amount of hit points you get from raging and up to 9 DR. Focus on Constitution and Toughness enhancements instead.

Toughness is something that belongs on a Fighter to compensate for the massive lack of CON that a Barbarian gets while raging.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

You would think that THF standing still all the time is more DPS. I would have thought so too until I saw this chart.

Surprise! On a pure 20 fighter, twitching is AHEAD of glancing by far at 0% fort and only very slightly behind glancing at 50 and 100% fort.

On a pure barb twitching is behind glancing at 0 50 and 100% fort, but only very slightly behind at 0% fort.

So my original question still remains, that on 18/2 (and not pure20) thus losing 10% to glancing blows, would twitching be equal to glancing (at least at 0% fort). I dont' really think we have an answer for that.

My gut based on the chart tells me they would be even closer than on the chart (i.e. twitching equal dps to glancing on 18/2 at 0% fort) but I don't have any numbers or testing to back this up, and apparently no one does either.

[Chai]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

You would think that THF standing still all the time is more DPS. I would have thought so too until I saw this chart.

Surprise! On a pure 20 fighter, twitching is AHEAD of glancing by far at 0% fort and only very slightly behind glancing at 50 and 100% fort.

On a pure barb twitching is behind glancing at 0 50 and 100% fort, but only very slightly behind at 0% fort.

So my original question still remains, that on 18/2 (and not pure20) thus losing 10% to glancing blows, would twitching be equal to glancing (at least at 0% fort). I dont' really think we have an answer for that.

My gut based on the chart tells me they would be even closer than on the chart (i.e. twitching equal dps to glancing on 18/2 at 0% fort) but I don't have any numbers or testing to back this up, and apparently no one does either.

For someone who can manage perfect twitch, maybe, maybe not. The minute the mob moves out of the way or the player messes up the twitch interruption of the attack chain - loss of DPS.

Twitch interruption of the attack chain to achieve higher attck rate isnt really worth it anymore.

[Consumer]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

You would think that THF standing still all the time is more DPS. I would have thought so too until I saw this chart.

Surprise! On a pure 20 fighter, twitching is AHEAD of glancing by far at 0% fort and only very slightly behind glancing at 50 and 100% fort.

I go away for a few months and come back to see Wraith giving good advice!

You're going to be standing still and should just download the DPS and look for yourself. Your feat choices are not optimal...

Follow Shades or my 18/2 build for a template.

[Khanyth]

Why?

I hate repeating myself, so just read the link.

[Cam_Neely]

So that leaves THF< ITFH, GTHF + Toughness (4)
OR 4 toughness. (ignoring barb PL for now).

If you are truly think about doing this (which I wont recommend, and others will detail why not) why are you taking the 2 fighter levels? Pure barb would work out better I think

[voodoogroves]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

You would think that THF standing still all the time is more DPS. I would have thought so too until I saw this chart.

Surprise! On a pure 20 fighter, twitching is AHEAD of glancing by far at 0% fort and only very slightly behind glancing at 50 and 100% fort.

On a pure barb twitching is behind glancing at 0 50 and 100% fort, but only very slightly behind at 0% fort.

So my original question still remains, that on 18/2 (and not pure20) thus losing 10% to glancing blows, would twitching be equal to glancing (at least at 0% fort). I dont' really think we have an answer for that.

My gut based on the chart tells me they would be even closer than on the chart (i.e. twitching equal dps to glancing on 18/2 at 0% fort) but I don't have any numbers or testing to back this up, and apparently no one does either.

What Shade was advising before and I was echoing is that those THF numbers on the spreadsheet represent an upper limit of achievement ... you likely won't see those in practice.


With the THF feats you can obstensibly put on auto attack and hit very close to the numbers on the THF side. You won't hit your action boosts, madstones, etc. perfectly so it's still an upper limit, but the bulk of your time could be auto-attacking.

The twitch numbers assume a far greater keyboard-activity as you have to twitch AND do your boosts/rages/whatevers. Even if you were perfect with the fingers, you'll still have a very difficult time achieving the top end ... and many/most players are far from finger-perfect.


Go for it either way if you want ... I just know for me that my diligence, fatigue, etc. would limit me from being a perfect twitch player 100% of the time. The DPS loss in those cases would be pretty significant.

[Consumer]

The twitch numbers assume a far greater keyboard-activity as you have to twitch AND do your boosts/rages/whatevers. Even if you were perfect with the fingers, you'll still have a very difficult time achieving the top end ... and many/most players are far from finger-perfect.

Activations interrupt you attacking, this is not an issue. The only difficulty twitching with a Barbarian comes when you cannot see you character.

Anyway, party with Crazy and you'll see he's pretty good and had most of the gear required last time I played with him.

[voodoogroves]

Activations interrupt you attacking, this is not an issue. The only difficulty twitching with a Barbarian comes when you cannot see you character.

Anyway, party with Crazy and you'll see he's pretty good and had most of the gear required last time I played with him.

Yeah I just know that Player > Build when it comes to dropping THF and going sole-twitchy. Depends on how active you can / want to be in a sustained sense.


For most content, the difference is probably meaningless; we're only talking sustained DPS on bosses that last any significant amount of time. **** on normal / hard still probably blows up fast regardless.

[crazydamage]

If you are truly think about doing this (which I wont recommend, and others will detail why not) why are you taking the 2 fighter levels? Pure barb would work out better I think

Pure 20 barb doesnt leave any room for both toughness AND sunning blow nor for barb PL feat.

[DragonMageT]

9 feats total

How are you getting 9 feats ? Human Barb 18/2 ?

You asking about higher DPS THF chain vs twitch, shouldn't you also be going Horc.

IMO 4 toughness feats is just a waste of feats, average built barbs should easily hit over 800 HP with 1 toughness feat which is enough HP for any end game content.

Horc 18/2 Barb/Fighter (PA, Cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Toughness, Imp. Crit, Barb Past Life)

[Vissarion]

How are you getting 9 feats ? Human Barb 18/2 ?

You asking about higher DPS THF chain vs twitch, shouldn't you also be going Horc.

IMO 4 toughness feats is just a waste of feats, average built barbs should easily hit over 800 HP with 1 toughness feat which is enough HP for any end game content.

Horc 18/2 Barb/Fighter (PA, Cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Toughness, Imp. Crit, Barb Past Life)

I think you miscounted; a normal character gets 7 standard feats (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) and the 2 Fighter gives two bonus feats for a total of 9 feats.

[crazydamage]

What Shade was advising before and I was echoing is that those THF numbers on the spreadsheet represent an upper limit of achievement ... you likely won't see those in practice.


With the THF feats you can obstensibly put on auto attack and hit very close to the numbers on the THF side. You won't hit your action boosts, madstones, etc. perfectly so it's still an upper limit, but the bulk of your time could be auto-attacking.

The twitch numbers assume a far greater keyboard-activity as you have to twitch AND do your boosts/rages/whatevers. Even if you were perfect with the fingers, you'll still have a very difficult time achieving the top end ... and many/most players are far from finger-perfect.


Go for it either way if you want ... I just know for me that my diligence, fatigue, etc. would limit me from being a perfect twitch player 100% of the time. The DPS loss in those cases would be pretty significant.

As a fighter i never had a problem surging boosting then twitching.

Anyway I will probably end up taking THF on my 18/2
just wanted to see what thoughts were out there regarding THF chain.

Since no one seems to have an opinion, my gut instinct based solely on axeyu's chart is that: Twitch and THF chain woudl do identical damage at 0% fort on 18/2 and that THF would be ahead of twitch on 50% and 100% fort.

[Cam_Neely]

Pure 20 barb doesnt leave any room for both toughness AND sunning blow nor for barb PL feat.

Yes? You said ignore the PL feat, and I was suggesting that if you were taking 4 toughness feat, then maybe drop 2 of those and go pure, if you really thinks he can twitch well enough.

ie your stated PA Cleave Imp Crit Toughness Stunning blow (5)
and instead of all toughness to fill in the blanks, go pure, get the cap and ham sized bicep.

One of the draws of splashing 2 fighter is the extra feats, and if you are just going to fill them with extra (unneeded imo) toughness feats, might as well go pure, as I dont think the haste boost is enough to loose the cap.

[DragonMageT]

I think you miscounted; a normal character gets 7 standard feats (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) and the 2 Fighter gives two bonus feats for a total of 9 feats.

****, your right I counted Barb 1 Fighter 1 as 1 oops

Add stunning blow to list or 2 toughness if you really want the extra HP.