Healing Burst in Shroud part 4

[Shamurai]

14 str 14 con 18 wis is a simple 32 pt cleric build as a baseline for someone who wants a casting-based cleric.

Even radiant servants, unless they are intending to do a divine might build, do not need starting points in charisma.

There isn't a significant difference between that cleric and your breakdown HP-wise.

Clerics in the shroud who want to close in need to remember to cast nightshield if they lack a resistance item and also to stack holy aura for both themselves and the party (its +4 stacking to all saves in its aoe). My dwarven cleric, who has a base of 8 dexterity and does not have any action points spent in the dwarven saves enhancement line, has a 26 reflex save when buffed up. This is adequate enough to only fail reflex saves in the shroud on a roll of 1 (harry's normal spells have a dc of 28). Any cleric can achieve this score. Further reflex saves are available to those who have some interest in TWFing or otherwise increase their dexterity, or who have splash levels in classe sthat grant reflex save bonuses (ie monk).

To answer the OP, what is more likely to have happened in your run is that each of the clerics expected another cleric to be doing the healing, and/or that the person assigned to that task had some kind of problem (lagout, dc, etc) and consequently did not heal. While it is not common, a breakdown of this nature that coincides with the blades can lead to significant amounts of dead players, because even high-end characters need to recieve regular healing in that situation in order to remain alive (due to the unblockable nature of both the blades and meteor swarm). A breakdown of this nature is a lot more likely to be responsible for your problem than any specific tactic chosen by clerics.

i will note that some pug clerics do a very bad job of understanding and/or using ardor effects, especially because the actual text on the items are misleading (claiming its a 50% bonus instead of the 75% it provides). These players, who often do not have or are not using tod ardor belts, may be healing with cure serious/critical mass without any form of devotion or ardor for those spell levels, and such mass cures are wholly incapable of keeping characters alive in the shroud.

I will note that while my cleric is moderately well equipped, I spend next to no time on him and he doesn't even have any significant shroud itemage. Most of his gear is either from very easy raids (reaver, hound) or are relatively undesirable epic items I had no use for on my other characters. Only a couple of his items qualify as being particularly desirable to most players (epic spectrals, epic belt of the mroranon). Nonetheless, attaining both the hit points and saving throws necessary to melee on Arraetrikos on pretty much any difficulty is pretty effortless if you simply spend a small amount of time doing so, and the character has been meleeing Arraetrikos since roughly his 8th ever run of the shroud, at the level 16 cap, nearly 3 years ago. Since then, we've gained 4 levels of hit points, mass protection from the elements, a functional holy aura, the entire radiant servant PRE, larger healing bonuses from ardor, and the ability to apply any kind of potency/ardor/devotion effect to spells above level 6. It was possible to melee and heal the shroud as a level 16 cleric using greater devotion 6 and mass cure light/mass cure moderate wounds. It's certainly possible now, and it shouldn't require a particularly noticable expenditure of effort.

Is this confirmed that all that is needed is a 26 Reflext save to "save on a 1" because if so I can adjust my style a little bit.

[Junts]

Is this confirmed that all that is needed is a 26 Reflext save to "save on a 1" because if so I can adjust my style a little bit.

You'll never save on a 1. The goal is to save on a 2.

Yes, Arraetrikos has a dc 28 on normal. However, it scales with difficulty, and it also scales in raids and content higher-level than normal shroud. Save dcs in epic raids are in the mid-30s or higher, and so are dcs in hard/elite raids (arraetrikos is 32 or 34 on elite, and horoth is higher).

[Shamurai]

You'll never save on a 1. The goal is to save on a 2.

Yes, Arraetrikos has a dc 28 on normal. However, it scales with difficulty, and it also scales in raids and content higher-level than normal shroud. Save dcs in epic raids are in the mid-30s or higher, and so are dcs in hard/elite raids (arraetrikos is 32 or 34 on elite, and horoth is higher).

Thanks JUNTS.. and OMG... Now I FINALLY (only been 2 years now) get that 75% from ToD Clickies.. I never knew that that 50% stated was REALLY 75% so yeah, I'm THAT NOOB PuG Cleric that hasn't utilized these properly! I'm so going to be a better healer starting... NOW!

[Junts]

Thanks JUNTS.. and OMG... Now I FINALLY (only been 2 years now) get that 75% from ToD Clickies.. I never knew that that 50% stated was REALLY 75% so yeah, I'm THAT NOOB PuG Cleric that hasn't utilized these properly! I'm so going to be a better healer starting... NOW!

Since they are the only means at all to boost lv 7-8 spells hopefully you were using them anyway.

Particularly for a radiant servant (using emp-hela with the rad bonus instead of maximize), using csw and ccw with ardor is much more mana-efficient than any other available healing method, and provides cures more than large enough for any task.

With proper ardor you should only ever use mass heal because of mana efficiency for extremely predictable damage (ie velah), and never feel like you want to use it because your other spells don't heal for enough. Rad servants with ccw and sup ardor 8 will mass cure for 250+.

[Terebinthia]

For me, it depends on the group.

On a good group, without many squishies, I'll go into the melee (457hp standing, 477hp with rage, 517hp with Yugo and -5% attack speed). I'll melee with my upgraded Dreamspitter (averages about 5-7 more per hit than a +5 met of pure good), and toss Mass Heals. I don't bother with the bursts, though I know I should. If the blades close in, I just start tossing mass cures. With Torc and Conc Opp, I'll usually gain back 150-200sp during a round.

On an average PUG group, I'll stand back and just "healbot". The squishiest will die, and everyone else will be kept up with alternating a cure in between my Mass Heals. I keep my Aura up for the casters.

I prefer to be in the melee, so I can have a better idea of what's going on in there. Even though I have low DPS, if it takes off a second of blade-time, it is worth it.

Ooh, that's very interesting. I'm a Shroud or two off getting my Conc Opp item equipped on my TRed cleric, which will give me something like 480 hp. I hadn't thought of using the upgraded Dreamspitter. Guess it's time to collect Dreaming Dark pie pieces for my woo stick.

[blametroi]

The level range was 15-20.

The leader was lvl 13 cleric/2 barbarian fighting with the other melees, not healing.
There was the lvl 20 cleric throwing his bursts. They both died.
And there was me the lvl 15 cleric/2 monk with 350hp standing at a safe distance, healing people.

The lvl 17 ranger multiclass(rgr/barb/fig) was apparently a first timer, but he didn't say so and piked part 2 in sneak mode somewhere NW.
He has 265hp and 0% fort.

I knew there was a high chance of failure when i joined the pug

Really? I didn't notice the 15s, but the ranger in question was a late join. I did a quick read of the group when I joined the LFM and didn't feel too concerned--I normally notice if there are 15s and 16s in the group. I guess I'm too trusting.

I wasn't watching the leader as a healer, but he did ask if anyone was a first timer. I hate people who won't admit it. I've only been dropped once as a first timer.

So, without naming names, do you fault the leader for letting that ranger in?

From your "safe distance" comment, I assume you don't think standing in the fire is a good tactic, or not for your build at least?

(I feel like Johnny 5 here, "innnnnnputttttttt". Lots of info to soak up here. Really appreciate it.

[Cardtrick]

The level range was 15-20.

The leader was lvl 13 cleric/2 barbarian fighting with the other melees, not healing.
There was the lvl 20 cleric throwing his bursts. They both died.
And there was me the lvl 15 cleric/2 monk with 350hp standing at a safe distance, healing people.

The lvl 17 ranger multiclass(rgr/barb/fig) was apparently a first timer, but he didn't say so and piked part 2 in sneak mode somewhere NW.
He has 265hp and 0% fort.

I knew there was a high chance of failure when i joined the pug

This isn't your fault, clearly. It sounds like there was a whole laundry list of things going wrong.

Nevertheless, so you know for the future: you could probably have saved this (and been a hero!).

It has been common wisdom that all melees should stay in through the blades when fighting Harry. Usually this is a good idea, and the SP saved by making the fight a one-rounder is more than that lost by having to heal more intensely during the blades. Plus, things tend to get chaotic when people leave the blades.

However, in a situation like this, with only one healer left standing and the DPS weakened by some deaths -- and with the one healer being a sub-20 multiclass, and therefore having considerably less SP than might be hoped for -- you guys should not have stayed in through the blades.

Again, obviously not your fault -- but I really do think you could have saved it despite all the other problems. I was in one group once with an extremely similar situation, and when the blades started closing in the cleric (a 16/2 without mass heal yet) shouted on voice chat: "Leave the blades. Heals on me." There was no way we would have survived if we had all stayed in through the blades, but the cleric was able to save us, and we finished it with a short second round.

It should really be the leader's call on when to do this, but if he's not stepping up, it falls to the healer.

[siver]

This isn't your fault, clearly. It sounds like there was a whole laundry list of things going wrong.

Nevertheless, so you know for the future: you could probably have saved this (and been a hero!).

It has been common wisdom that all melees should stay in through the blades when fighting Harry. Usually this is a good idea, and the SP saved by making the fight a one-rounder is more than that lost by having to heal more intensely during the blades. Plus, things tend to get chaotic when people leave the blades.

However, in a situation like this, with only one healer left standing and the DPS weakened by some deaths -- and with the one healer being a sub-20 multiclass, and therefore having considerably less SP than might be hoped for -- you guys should not have stayed in through the blades.

Again, obviously not your fault -- but I really do think you could have saved it despite all the other problems. I was in one group once with an extremely similar situation, and when the blades started closing in the cleric (a 16/2 without mass heal yet) shouted on voice chat: "Leave the blades. Heals on me." There was no way we would have survived if we had all stayed in through the blades, but the cleric was able to save us, and we finished it with a short second round.

It should really be the leader's call on when to do this, but if he's not stepping up, it falls to the healer.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure he couldn't have saved it. By the time the Event occurred, the blades were about 5-10 feet from damaging the party. Were I to hazard a guess, I'd say it was probably a Meteor Swarm followed up quickly with a Delayed Blast Fireball, landing between heals, possibly interrupting the heal the near cleric was casting, that killed everybody.

After that, there was only one fighter, a wizard, a sorcerer, and the prevously mentioned cleric/monk alive. The fighter was stupid though, assumed (like you did, only you have the very logical reason of not being there to SEE where the blades were) the blades were what got everybody, and jumped back to them. On the other hand, they were close enough that jumping back landed said fighter in the blades before a healing word could have been cast, so staying would've only bought an extra 2-3 seconds. In short, the only thing the cleric/monk could've done to win would be to step up, show people how it should REALLY be done, and solo Arritraekos from 25% starting round 2. Casting Word of Recall to be the only survivor is the smart option, though, so I won't complain.

Oh, and regarding the group, it was posted in the LFM as 17-20, and only the leader was level 15.

As for standing in the fire, I personally think it is only a good idea if you have the ability to survive both a meteor swarm and a delayed blast fireball (all of his multi-target attacks) without healing, or saving. If you can do that, then it's fine to heal with Radiant healing. Otherwise, you are taking a big risk, as he can cast them surprisingly quickly, one after the other, and possibly cause a wipe.


To be fair, that fighter does have the potential to heal about 200 damage in 3 seconds without interruption or potions, so the plan of getting out of danger for a moment or two to heal, create a plan to 4 man the rest of Part 4, then charge off in a blaze of glory could've worked, had the the blades not been staying back to finish off the straggler. Instead the best that could be said is maybe the cleric/monk who survived got a laugh out of it.

[pasterqb]

Well, im comparing them to FvS really since this was my high level healer, and they do have less HP compared to those. Compared to arcanes or whatever, Clerics have good HP but without Toughness enhancements and rather low HD, they stay on the low side overall i think; especially comparing them the FvS who even have the AP spare to take any and every Toughness enhancement (AP efficiency is kind of a big deal in regards to HP). Of course that doesnt mean that you should have 200 hp at level 20...

Since you're mentioning 6 Con and 450 HP... you cant expect everyone to have a Shroud HP item (you got to farm Shroud first) and not all builds have the AP to take all the HP enhancements. 6 Con -> 450 HP sounds pretty insane tbh.

I admit i may have exaggerated a bit. But it doesnt gimp your cleric to take multiple toughness' unless its a battle cleric but here is a decent break down of what a normal cleric should look like without good gear. My recent expierence with clerics have been with monk splits so i will admit i get 2 extra feats than other clerics so there is an extra 44 hp.

With 10 Con on a level 20 cleric you will have a base of 180
so

180 Base
+40 Starting 14 Con(All toons should atleast try and start with 14 con)
+22 Toughness
+20 Toughness Racial Enhancement(Tier 1 and 2 is available to all races)
+45 Greensteel HP Item
+20 +2 Con tome
+60 +6 Con item
+30 Greater False Life
+20 Toughness Item(Minos Legens, Epic Blue Slot or new item coming out Wed.)
+20 +2 Exceptional Con
+10 Draconic Vitality
= 467 with no Epic Gear or Hard to acquire Gear

On a 6 con clonk i can fit in 3 to 5 toughness' while maintaining quicken, empower, empower heal, maximize. Choice
is between Toughness, Mental Toughness(Torc + Conc Opp makes this kinda stupid) and Extend(nerfed so i dont know if i want it on non battle clerics)

Lets say i decide to drop 2 kinda useless feats (Mental toughness and Extend meaning i get 5 toughness on a 18cleric/2 monk. Lower the hp on the previous breakdown by 80 because going from 14 to 6 But add 4 more toughness which means add 88 hp for a grand total of ..... 475 hp with 6 starting con!!!!! or settle for 3 toughness and come out with 431 which is still over 400 and good hp goal. Now i am admitting on battle clerics this gets more and more tricky but why would anyone even start with 6 con?

Also please don't tell me that a toon shouldnt have a GS HP item. I Hand out free Smalls and Mediums all the timer so there is 25 hp there AND you can get the remaining 20 on DT armor for the full 45.

[DougGlyndwyr]

Depends on the Cleric build. On my main, there's no way I'd stand in the middle as his fireball, if it catches me, is going to do some key damage if he follows it up with a swipe, even at 457hp. I'd rather not risk a party just to swing some hard jack, and I do have one of the finest collection of bastard swords out there.

Now my dwarf cleric, however, with all that happy bonuses to con and other and sundry, can sit there all day long, as he'll top out at 513 or so in the HP department. Just enough extra (and more after his GS HP item comes through) to sit there and just cast on himself all. Night. Long.

[Habreno]

So what are his saves on Normal? 28 reflex, what else?

Just curious because I might heal with the melees when I LR. Considering on my 28-point Elf (first ever toon and it didn't suck, just needed an LR at L15 or so to correct feat issues) meleeing in part 4, but only after an LR swapping out Greater Spell Penetration and Extend for a pair of Toughness feats + 2 enhancements.

[stoopid_cowboy]

I cant beleive it hasn't been said yet!

/popcorn



I love a good Shroud lack of healing thread.

yuda

[Snormal]

I was in a relatively smooth pug Shroud that wiped out at the end of round 1 of part 4. Nine of us were suddenly dead as the blades started closing in. I'd noticed that heals felt a bit slow, I actually noticed my red bar staying down low a few times, but this isn't a "you didn't heal me" post per se. Death happens, wipes happen, you get over it and move on.

In the after-wipe chatter, there wasn't a lot of blamecasting going on. The leader had some not nice things to say about a ranger and seemed to feel that the ranger contributed, and a couple of people were asking about one of the healers who had been standing in the scrum and casting heals and radiant bursts (? I think that's what you call them).

What I'm interested in hearing about from Clerics (and not melees who think they know what Clerics should do) is the idea of a Cleric standing with the melees fighting Harry and throwing those radiant bursts.

I don't recall seeing this tactic before, and I just don't know the math to compare it over other methods of keeping the melees standing.

Do you think this is a valid tactic in a raid? Why or why not?

If it matters, this was run at normal difficulty with 18-20s. 2 monks, at least 1 rogue, 2 clerics, 1 clonk, that ranger, and an assortment of casters and melees.

Pretty sure I know which run you're talking about, also the healers involved. Bursting in the middle if you can reliably survive Harry makes it easier to heal (I have seen a few people do it really well). In this case the only fault I find with 'the bursting cleric' as I shall call him, is he was standing in the middle with a 15/2 clonk and a 13/2 battlecleric as backup. I don't think being on the outside spamming regular mass heals/cures would have changed the outcome given that at least one of those clerics was meleeing instead of healing.

[Baldimor]

Ok i don;t ever post on the forums but I have gotta say this... Everyone does know we use to heal the shroud at lvl 16 with all 15 and 16th lvls in the group?? No mass heal and no Radiant aura or burst.. With 2 clerics.... And we completed.......... If you fail with lvl 20s and 3 healers,,, someone needs to reroll...

[Aeolwind]

Some characters built as pure heal-bots simply fold over and die there. Happens. If you have 2 of them in your raid, you either do part 4 without healers or wipe. It happens. Some Clerics are just so wimpy and die to 1 fireball, one cant imagine.
In one Shroud i did, there were 3 healers who never got a heal off and all 3 died to the same big boom spell. Wiped.
Happens...

To your question, of course a properly built Cleric can stand with the melees.

Before I TR'd, my cleric had about 437hp (as an elf) and 2k sp and yes, I could stand inside and burst/aura heal. It is FAR from optimal though. And I was straight healbot and had around 60ish ac buffed. I've seen clerics drop dead from ONE DBF.... ONE! I've seen the same with Meteor Swarms. And these were the ones that tried to 'heal in' on Harry. Just not worth the risk imo.

[Talonaise]

No need for a long winded story.

Yes. If you have the hit points, and have a clue what you are doing, there is no reason for the cleric not to heal using bursts (in rotation) and standing with raid.

Done it many times, no issues.

[TheKaige]

Firestorm Greaves (By far the most important piece if you don't have UMD, and not a terrible farm like Bloodstone + Ring of Spell Storing)
Quicken Spell
450+ HP buffed
A good aura (Mine is enhancement maxed, I use a Superior Ardor VI staff for Harry, and I have Major Healing Lore on my Conc. Opp Goggles)
Healing Amp. helps your aura mitigate damage. (My DT Armor is Heal Amp 10, Heal Amp 20, +20 HP, would like Levik's Bracer's)
Use your Divine Intervention on yourself if capped for safety's sake.

I also have Epic Swashbuckler, which does wonders for my saves the way I see it, in addition to my +5 Resist cloak (Epic Envenomed Cloak would be better)

No need for UMD, though I'm sure that helps. And using this, not only do you contribute damage, but you can keep Prayer, Recitation, and Holy Aura on the group/Harry.

And if you're into summons like me, the Eladrin will survive the entire fight as long as heals are kept up, and since she does light damage, doesn't have to worry about his DR.

I don't get using Aura Burst though; maybe if you had Empower and Maximize and your bursts were really worth something; otherwise focus on keeping Aura/Superior Ardor on, and Mass Heal at end of every cooldown.