3 Words: Random Dungeon Generator

[varusso]

Two examples:
(1) Shadow Crypt. Not actually REALLY random, but close enough. In a group of 6, at least 3 people will comment on how much they HATE the 'random' layout. Mention you have a guide, and universally you get 'thank god'. If it werent for the huge XP at level, I probably wouldnt even do this myself, even with the guide.

(2) Prey on the Hunter. Inevitably, even with veteran players, someone complains about the maze -- and its a LITTLE maze. "wish the timer didnt start when you enter' 'wish they would just get rid of this thing' 'I get turned around in here and hate it' Common comments on most runs.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players want a 'challenge' in the quest. They dont like the mechanic itself. Random is good in theory, because it adds a bit of 'newness' to a quest each time. But in reality, players prefer to know what is coming and be able to plan their strategies and resources accordingly. Thats WHY we have things like the Wiki, the umpteen guides posted all over the forums for every quest, and players posting LFMs for a guide on quests they have never done. Its because players WANT to know what they are getting into, before they dive in. For most players, the first few times in a dungeon is enough 'random newness' for them.

When they get bored with the quest, they want a new quest, not the same quest with a random layout. It may not make sense, but its really the prevalent attitude.

And I can tell you from personal PnP experience, that it holds true with every group I ever ran. If I pulled out my dungeon deck, there were groans all around. Players ALWAYS preferred one of my hand crafted dungeons to a "shuffle n play' dungeon. There is just more polish in a permanent layout than a random one. I think part of it also came from the feeling that the DM was 'fudging' the dungeon, trying to 'get by' with a random dungeon than putting forth the time and effort to build and stock the dungeon properly.

[redspecter23]

Two examples:
(1) Shadow Crypt. Not actually REALLY random, but close enough. In a group of 6, at least 3 people will comment on how much they HATE the 'random' layout. Mention you have a guide, and universally you get 'thank god'. If it werent for the huge XP at level, I probably wouldnt even do this myself, even with the guide.

(2) Prey on the Hunter. Inevitably, even with veteran players, someone complains about the maze -- and its a LITTLE maze. "wish the timer didnt start when you enter' 'wish they would just get rid of this thing' 'I get turned around in here and hate it' Common comments on most runs.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players want a 'challenge' in the quest. They dont like the mechanic itself. Random is good in theory, because it adds a bit of 'newness' to a quest each time. But in reality, players prefer to know what is coming and be able to plan their strategies and resources accordingly. Thats WHY we have things like the Wiki, the umpteen guides posted all over the forums for every quest, and players posting LFMs for a guide on quests they have never done. Its because players WANT to know what they are getting into, before they dive in. For most players, the first few times in a dungeon is enough 'random newness' for them.

When they get bored with the quest, they want a new quest, not the same quest with a random layout. It may not make sense, but its really the prevalent attitude.

And I can tell you from personal PnP experience, that it holds true with every group I ever ran. If I pulled out my dungeon deck, there were groans all around. Players ALWAYS preferred one of my hand crafted dungeons to a "shuffle n play' dungeon. There is just more polish in a permanent layout than a random one. I think part of it also came from the feeling that the DM was 'fudging' the dungeon, trying to 'get by' with a random dungeon than putting forth the time and effort to build and stock the dungeon properly.

I think in the examples you've posted above, specifically the Prey example, the maze itself isn't the frustrating part. It's the fact that you're running a maze against a clock. Autofail is an option if you don't go fast. That's the part that I dislike about that quest. The overall problem with random dungeons is that your "goal" is not to conquer the dungeon itself but to get to "the end". In these situations, the dungeon is just an obstacle to get you to the end so you can get your reward. It's frustrating to require a solver or brute force zerging to do this efficiently and I think that's the part people dislike. Now if you can design a dungeon where the fun and rewarding part of the dungeon is the journey itself then you'd be onto something there. Random dungeons with all rewards based at the end serve no real purpose being random in my opinion. The dungeon will just be zerged or done with a map/solver.

[varusso]

I think in the examples you've posted above, specifically the Prey example, the maze itself isn't the frustrating part. It's the fact that you're running a maze against a clock. Autofail is an option if you don't go fast. That's the part that I dislike about that quest. The overall problem with random dungeons is that your "goal" is not to conquer the dungeon itself but to get to "the end". In these situations, the dungeon is just an obstacle to get you to the end so you can get your reward. It's frustrating to require a solver or brute force zerging to do this efficiently and I think that's the part people dislike. Now if you can design a dungeon where the fun and rewarding part of the dungeon is the journey itself then you'd be onto something there. Random dungeons with all rewards based at the end serve no real purpose being random in my opinion. The dungeon will just be zerged or done with a map/solver.

I agree, the combination of Prey's random maze AND the timer make it suck. But if there were a timer and a straight corridor, no one would complain. Well...no one worth listening to, anyway.

Using randomness creates design flaws, though. And I dont mean the possibility of dead-end corridors or mobs (including bosses) stuck in a 4x4 cell with no exits. We can assume they would put checks in the system to prevent that, except in rare glitches (cos those DO happen, period). I mean actual flaws in the way they design. It fosters a laziness in the creator. Why bother putting challenging puzzles and cool layouts in, when you can just hit the randomize button and spit out a 'new and different' dungeon every time? And to justify the amount of work needed to ensure this tool works properly, they would have to use it alot, which means instead of a well organized, planned-out dungeon, we would get bizarro world in every other quest. Nice as a change of pace once in a while (like my dungeon deck in PnP) but certainly not something I would want to be shoved into constantly. Perhaps for a Xoriat-themed adventure pack, but not as a standard staple in the game.

And then, yah the zerg thing. I zerg alot of quests I have done a zillion times. Random dungeons would certainly curtail that ALOT, but not because it makes the dungeon new and refreshing; only because I dont know the layout and have to slog through the quest. It wouldnt add fun to the quest, it would only increase the grind feeling.

And before the inevitable 'yay signed to get rid of zergers' nonsene: The people you hate for 'zerging' are bad zergers, foilks. GOOD zergers dont hurt your gameplay experience, in large part because we stick with our own kind.