3 Words: Random Dungeon Generator

[Malky]

Follow your left hand. Done, you bested the random dungeon.

It only works if you have the time to do so : see comment above about what 'rushing through a random dongeon' can be, following your left hand won't get you far in those cases.

On a side note, the pirate event used a bit of randomness already (following your left hand was a very bad idea there )

[NinjaNeed]

Reading the many replies here gives me the impression that while the general consensus for a completely random dungeon is NO, there is a want for some kind of almost random dungeon type thing. A lot of people have suggested 4 different layouts randomly generated, we kind of already have that in Litany (although its fixed not random ofc).

So how about expanding that to maybe 25 different layouts with the "optional" boss being randomly chosen? Could be a raid style dungeon so that after 20 completions you get to pick from a list of named loot. Having the boss that drops the named loot being an optional name, like in Litany, would prevent people from zoning in, seeing what name it is to kill then dropping out and resetting until they get the name they want (prob the easiest one! Why fight Abbot with the annoying puzzles and his insane inferno when you can simply kill Rever???).

Just an idea on the basis of the OP's idea.

[whitehawk74]

I cant see it happening, but what I would like to see is the puzzles being random each time. Like in the Pit, it's always the same which means it's no longer a puzzle.

[stille_nacht]

nooooo

well, to clarify, no to the shoddy version of random dungeons that it is actually possible to make.

ideally, a random dungeon throws in new challenges, new layouts, and different mechanics, perhaps new enemies at you, creating a unique and fresh experience each time.

however that is not actually really feasible.

so what you actually get in almost all "random" dungeons is a lower quality (by far) experience when compared to pre built ones, that actually feels dull and monotonous each time anyway, since it essentially has to have simple things so it can vary the layout, Ex: random layout sewer dungeon
See MMO- mabinogi

as to the multiple layout thing- you could have 1 quest with 5 variations randomly chosen, or you could have a 5 quest pack, same amount of coding.

[Hordo]

I think this speaks for itself. If you would like to keep people playing, give them dungeons they don't know how to beat. A save feature inside the dungeon would be nice for excessively long dungeon crawls as well. It can be done people. We have the technology. . .

Been asking for this, myself, occasionally for the past 5 years.

/signed and +1 to you!

[wey4lust]

I think some random dungeon is good idea, it can be even simple ones, kill xxx mobs on some lvl in empty room by room. Or random hall full of traps etc. Quick ones to kill time.

[Uska]

Been asking for this, myself, occasionally for the past 5 years.

/signed and +1 to you!

I cant ever see a save feature working it would cause to many issues.

[Uska]

I think this speaks for itself. If you would like to keep people playing, give them dungeons they don't know how to beat. A save feature inside the dungeon would be nice for excessively long dungeon crawls as well. It can be done people. We have the technology. . .

save feature impossible or at least improble and problematic for a mmo

[AcesWylde]

No.

Add more random elements to the dungeons...yes please.

TRAPS: traps are not always in the same place and/or the same type (I like the way they do this in Chamber of Raiyum, and some others, I think they should do that for all the quests)

CHESTS: add a couple of random chests, that could be in hidden in different locations, that may or may not be trapped and/or locked, cursed (the chest itself, or some of the loot), blessed (higher level loot), or in fact be mimics that try to eat whomever opens them.

MOBS: the same type of mobs don't always spawn in the same locations (ok guys, this room has fire elementals, fire resist and cold weapons...****, ice flensers)

NAMED: named spawn in different locations, and you don't always get the same named (some already do this)

OPTS: make it where you don't always have the same optional objectives depending on level/difficulty (ie, driving away Aussircaex in Misery's Peak has a chance of being an optional objective if you run it on elite with higher level toons, lol)

[Rubiconn]

I have a crazy idea, what if there was a door or entrance you could go through that would drop you in a random dungeon, that would present all kinds of interesting challenges for fun. Lvl 4 toons running around in amrath, level 20's having to complete sacrifices. That would be fun, perhaps even add the dungeon scaling thing that was part of the pirate cove event.

On second thought no.

[varusso]

Two examples:
(1) Shadow Crypt. Not actually REALLY random, but close enough. In a group of 6, at least 3 people will comment on how much they HATE the 'random' layout. Mention you have a guide, and universally you get 'thank god'. If it werent for the huge XP at level, I probably wouldnt even do this myself, even with the guide.

(2) Prey on the Hunter. Inevitably, even with veteran players, someone complains about the maze -- and its a LITTLE maze. "wish the timer didnt start when you enter' 'wish they would just get rid of this thing' 'I get turned around in here and hate it' Common comments on most runs.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players want a 'challenge' in the quest. They dont like the mechanic itself. Random is good in theory, because it adds a bit of 'newness' to a quest each time. But in reality, players prefer to know what is coming and be able to plan their strategies and resources accordingly. Thats WHY we have things like the Wiki, the umpteen guides posted all over the forums for every quest, and players posting LFMs for a guide on quests they have never done. Its because players WANT to know what they are getting into, before they dive in. For most players, the first few times in a dungeon is enough 'random newness' for them.

When they get bored with the quest, they want a new quest, not the same quest with a random layout. It may not make sense, but its really the prevalent attitude.

And I can tell you from personal PnP experience, that it holds true with every group I ever ran. If I pulled out my dungeon deck, there were groans all around. Players ALWAYS preferred one of my hand crafted dungeons to a "shuffle n play' dungeon. There is just more polish in a permanent layout than a random one. I think part of it also came from the feeling that the DM was 'fudging' the dungeon, trying to 'get by' with a random dungeon than putting forth the time and effort to build and stock the dungeon properly.

[redspecter23]

Two examples:
(1) Shadow Crypt. Not actually REALLY random, but close enough. In a group of 6, at least 3 people will comment on how much they HATE the 'random' layout. Mention you have a guide, and universally you get 'thank god'. If it werent for the huge XP at level, I probably wouldnt even do this myself, even with the guide.

(2) Prey on the Hunter. Inevitably, even with veteran players, someone complains about the maze -- and its a LITTLE maze. "wish the timer didnt start when you enter' 'wish they would just get rid of this thing' 'I get turned around in here and hate it' Common comments on most runs.

It has nothing to do with whether or not players want a 'challenge' in the quest. They dont like the mechanic itself. Random is good in theory, because it adds a bit of 'newness' to a quest each time. But in reality, players prefer to know what is coming and be able to plan their strategies and resources accordingly. Thats WHY we have things like the Wiki, the umpteen guides posted all over the forums for every quest, and players posting LFMs for a guide on quests they have never done. Its because players WANT to know what they are getting into, before they dive in. For most players, the first few times in a dungeon is enough 'random newness' for them.

When they get bored with the quest, they want a new quest, not the same quest with a random layout. It may not make sense, but its really the prevalent attitude.

And I can tell you from personal PnP experience, that it holds true with every group I ever ran. If I pulled out my dungeon deck, there were groans all around. Players ALWAYS preferred one of my hand crafted dungeons to a "shuffle n play' dungeon. There is just more polish in a permanent layout than a random one. I think part of it also came from the feeling that the DM was 'fudging' the dungeon, trying to 'get by' with a random dungeon than putting forth the time and effort to build and stock the dungeon properly.

I think in the examples you've posted above, specifically the Prey example, the maze itself isn't the frustrating part. It's the fact that you're running a maze against a clock. Autofail is an option if you don't go fast. That's the part that I dislike about that quest. The overall problem with random dungeons is that your "goal" is not to conquer the dungeon itself but to get to "the end". In these situations, the dungeon is just an obstacle to get you to the end so you can get your reward. It's frustrating to require a solver or brute force zerging to do this efficiently and I think that's the part people dislike. Now if you can design a dungeon where the fun and rewarding part of the dungeon is the journey itself then you'd be onto something there. Random dungeons with all rewards based at the end serve no real purpose being random in my opinion. The dungeon will just be zerged or done with a map/solver.

[varusso]

I think in the examples you've posted above, specifically the Prey example, the maze itself isn't the frustrating part. It's the fact that you're running a maze against a clock. Autofail is an option if you don't go fast. That's the part that I dislike about that quest. The overall problem with random dungeons is that your "goal" is not to conquer the dungeon itself but to get to "the end". In these situations, the dungeon is just an obstacle to get you to the end so you can get your reward. It's frustrating to require a solver or brute force zerging to do this efficiently and I think that's the part people dislike. Now if you can design a dungeon where the fun and rewarding part of the dungeon is the journey itself then you'd be onto something there. Random dungeons with all rewards based at the end serve no real purpose being random in my opinion. The dungeon will just be zerged or done with a map/solver.

I agree, the combination of Prey's random maze AND the timer make it suck. But if there were a timer and a straight corridor, no one would complain. Well...no one worth listening to, anyway.

Using randomness creates design flaws, though. And I dont mean the possibility of dead-end corridors or mobs (including bosses) stuck in a 4x4 cell with no exits. We can assume they would put checks in the system to prevent that, except in rare glitches (cos those DO happen, period). I mean actual flaws in the way they design. It fosters a laziness in the creator. Why bother putting challenging puzzles and cool layouts in, when you can just hit the randomize button and spit out a 'new and different' dungeon every time? And to justify the amount of work needed to ensure this tool works properly, they would have to use it alot, which means instead of a well organized, planned-out dungeon, we would get bizarro world in every other quest. Nice as a change of pace once in a while (like my dungeon deck in PnP) but certainly not something I would want to be shoved into constantly. Perhaps for a Xoriat-themed adventure pack, but not as a standard staple in the game.

And then, yah the zerg thing. I zerg alot of quests I have done a zillion times. Random dungeons would certainly curtail that ALOT, but not because it makes the dungeon new and refreshing; only because I dont know the layout and have to slog through the quest. It wouldnt add fun to the quest, it would only increase the grind feeling.

And before the inevitable 'yay signed to get rid of zergers' nonsene: The people you hate for 'zerging' are bad zergers, foilks. GOOD zergers dont hurt your gameplay experience, in large part because we stick with our own kind.

[Alabore]

but it would have to be more than just an A to B quest.

^^^
This.

I like the notion of "procedurally created contents".
Problem is, they sometimes end up being about as exciting as playing that old EOB-clone, Dungeon Hack.

First couple dungeons would feel exciting; then boredom would set in, and you'd be loathe to go on - the random nature making it worse since it wouldn't account for making lower level any more interesting than the earlier ones.

...

Problem is, some quests play woefully the very same.
You could run them blindfolded - and some players rely on their static nature to farm their loot/xp.

I'd love a differently paced game for a change, where the different pace has a point.
But I cannot force strangers to put up with it, especially if they come with different expectations.

Maybe if the game was less about hoarding loot/xp, and more about the thrill of playing...
But what thrill do people derive from a game they've been grinding to dust since 2006?
To them fun is hanging around familiar faces - well, voices... - and running familiar contents as a pastime.

To me fun gaming is a mix of storytelling, action, immersion, and armchair sports.
To others it might be a different beast altogether.

...

Good random isn't really random to begin with.

[dormetheus]

Multiphase arena challenges with random waves. Optionals that increase the chance of rare-spawn waves (including, but not limited to, brief puzzles, randomly generated trivia questions, a stealth/trap guantlet for trap xp, reconnaissance that might inform you of the upcoming waves). The waves could vary from trash swarms to raid bosses.

Add in a slot wheel for wave resistances/dr/stat boosts. This slot wheel can be shut down or manipulated via some quest mechanic.

The ultimate reward (spawning the rarest spawns, etc.) would be a deck of many things. You could pull from the deck, which has a chance to drop items into your inventory (tiny tiny chance of unbound raidloot, perhaps), apply a "geas" spell (you have a neg to your xp or guild xp earned until you do a variety of strange things...), or any number of fun stuff.

This quest, of course, would be in the "arcade", the Coin Lords gambling den, where you could plat-sink your time away trying to win at various DDO-style games (think stuff like "fastest training golem take-down," "moving target archery," "arm wrestling button mash," "random trap gauntlet," "multi-target frontline siege healing," etc.etc..

C'mon guys, stuff like this can be fun. I'm just spit-balling here...

[spyyder976]

<<Has also been wanting random dungeons for years. And they should some kind of system like the DMG has, which allows for the possibility of encounters that are much higher level than you. This would keep things very interesting. Being a certain level, killing stuff around your level, some really easy and maybe lower than you, some even a good bit harder, then (in rare instances) around the corner there's some massive nasty boss that you really weren't expecting...

As for it not being a good way to have named loot. They could just put random named loot into the loot tables for end rewards of randomly generated dungeons only, as in these random things you would only see sometimes won't be found anywhere else but random dungeons (maybe with a guaranteed special random dungeon named loot item every 20 random dungeons run, although that loot would still be random). And maybe also reward us with tokens that would allow us to add different types of dungeon settings, monsters, traps, etc., on our dungeon creation screen, so that the more you play them, the more different they will become.

There are tons of ideas that could make this fun, and I would LOVE to see this in the game, and I assure you that many people would play them ALOT!