Metamagics.

[anto_capone]

Has there been any word of changes that will or wont be made to metas?

I was going to take maximize on my ranger to get 200% on my CSW, but now CSW only costs 12 SP instead of 25 SP. Maximize still costs 25 SP, so I was fine before with doubling it; and even though a maximized CSW now costs 37 SP instead of 50 SP the inefficiency of it makes me feel dirty..

Even empower healing costs 10 SP extra, which is almost double the cost for 50% boost.

Ugg my mind splodey

[Teharahma]

Or maybe we will just make them free?

Current cost of maximize: 25 - 4 (epic ornamented dagger,everyone has that) - 6 Improved Maximize II (reasonable investment) - 1 (optional - wiz capstone) = 15 or 14 sp.

Current cost of empower: 15 - 4 (Improved Empowering II) - 2 (item, skiver for example) - 1 (wiz capstone) = 9 or 8sp.

You can go crazy and lower those values to 12/11 and 7/6 if you really want that.

I am all for metamagic applied to every spell separately, but lowering cost of metamagics after lowering cost of most spells is like giving us big sp pool increase. Why? This game is already easy.

And btw, currently items with improved mximize give -2sp per tier, with improved empower -1sp per tier. In you version, they should both give -1sp/tier or stay as they are?

If they stay, cost of maximize with II tiers of ench would be 8, empower 4. If they would be both 1/tier maximize jumps to 10sp, but this require changing items.

Either way, maximize already is improving damage/sp ratio on most spells you want to use it on.

I dont get it why if something cost 80 (40+40), devs change it to cost 60 (20+40) everyone think that they should further improve it to 40 (20+20).

Maybe just remowe all this sp nonsence and be limited only by cooldowns? /sarcasm off

+1, keep it as is.

[orakio]

Polar Ray:
45 sp base + 25 sp Maximize + 15 sp Empower = 85 sp
20 sp base + 16 sp Maximize + 8 sp Empower = 44 sp

The base cost of Polar Ray is reduced to 44 %, the cost of Maximize would be reduced to 64 % and the cost of Empower would be reduced to 53 %. That means the damage boost of Empower and Maximize compared to the sp cost is roughly the same as before.

The problem is not with the baseline effectiveness but with the potential effectiveness. Lets take you example a little farther using some of the meta reductions indicated by Cartheron above.

45 sp base + 25 sp Maximize + 15 sp Empower = 85 sp (Pre U.9 cost)
20 sp base + 16 sp Maximize + 8 sp Empower = 44 sp (New Suggested cost)
20 sp base + 6sp Maximize + 3 sp Empower = 29 sp (New Cost with items listed above, non-wiz only 2 ranks of enhancements)
20 sp base + 3(2)sp Maximize + 1(0) sp Empower = 24(22) sp (Max potential reduction in enhancement cost, wiz only in parenthesis)

do you see the problem there? You would be getting almost 4x the number of polar rays max'd/empowered as pre update. That is a big big change.

[pjw]

do you see the problem there? You would be getting almost 4x the number of polar rays max'd/empowered as pre update. That is a big big change.

Yes, there is a problem but it has a clear solution: make it percentage based...

Empower : +50% Dmg, +25% SP
Maximize : +100% Dmg, +50% SP

Enhancements just drop those percentage cost adders, so for mazimize it's -5% per tier, so after spending 10AP the +50 Max become a +35% max, and formempoer drop it by 3% per tier, so after however many AP, empower becomes +16%.

The basic concept is that *if* spells are now balanced, then max and emp should reflect that balance and not be anachronisms left over from the pre-balance era.

And dont forget that these are feats...pretty much by definition they should give something for close to nothing (like power attack and improved crit).

[orakio]

I just feel 25% and 50% sp cost is too low for it to be honest.

Power attack does have an opportunity cost and that is at the exact same point that the metamagic is seeming so off right now. Sure endgame super Barbs have no issues with hit but at lower levels many characters do take a noticeable hit penalty for using power attack especially against bosses and on hard/elite. To be honest not every melee in the game is a 70+ str barb.

Look at it this way.

Power attack and metamagics BOTH provide more damage per time but should not increase efficiency drastically without further investment in the character. with a 25% and 50% cost you are getting more damage per time and more damage per mana, it is an EXTREMELY potent combination considering how much more effective casters are than melee for a substantial portion of the game. Leave initial costs as a damage per time increase only without harming efficiency and the feats themselves are balanced. You should take an additional investment in enhancements/items to become more efficient with the meta than without.

[pjw]

I just feel 25% and 50% sp cost is too low for it to be honest.

Each to their own; I feel it's about right. I could come at them being more expensive, in which case the enhancements should be more effective than -5%/-3%.

Power attack does have an opportunity cost and that is at the exact same point that the metamagic is seeming so off right now.

Improved crit does not, and the opportunity cost is negligible.

Along the same model, I would also be happy to consider a an increased spell timer for max/emp. I don't really care much about overall DPS so much as gaining efficiency.

...at lower levels many characters do take a noticeable hit penalty for using power attack...

If you are talking just about low levels, then maybe higher % increases (+75%/+37%) would work, but with commensurate higher AP reduction (-8%/-5% perhaps). In that way, lower level characters would not have a chance to spend on the entire AP line.

Power attack and metamagics BOTH provide more damage per time but should not increase efficiency drastically without further investment in the character.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but melees have at least three means to increase their attack speed: melee alactity items, melee alactity enhancements and twitching.

Caster have a single means: 'Quicken'. Nothing else. And it's expensive; 10-20% increase spell costs. At low levels it's +250% with the new costs.

I really do not have a problem with spell-casting speed feats and items being introduced, but until that time, I think it is fair that emp/max does both (to some extent).

it is an EXTREMELY potent combination considering how much more effective casters are than melee for a substantial portion of the game.

That's a balance issue, and saying "Lets leave casters feats seriously unbalanced in order to balance casters against melees" is not the solution.

If it's that bad, make the spells cost more. Just make sure that the feats actually do provide a real and genuine benefit. All they do now, in most cases, is provide casters with the ability to make the kill counts in exchange for SP efficiency.

Leave initial costs as a damage per time increase only without harming efficiency and the feats themselves are balanced.

I don't undertsand this bit.

You should take an additional investment in enhancements/items to become more efficient with the meta than without.

Yep. I agree with that, that is what the enhancements do...they improve the feats.

[orakio]

Improved crit has no real negative side effect but is also at most a 15% and more often a 5-10% increase crit rate. In addition it does not stack with effects like keen from mineral2 and only works with a single damage type, which while minor is still important as some mobs require slash/bludgeon/or pierce for DR bypass. The problem is that Max/Empower are universally effective, like power attack which affects all attacks with all weapons and stacks with any effect. Compare what improved crit brings versus empower+max... its not even close.

Melee do have some options as far as attack speed goes due to haste and a couple of classes having haste boosts but there is no real melee alacrity enhancement line for every class and because it is an action boost it has both limited uses and less than 100% uptime as the cooldown is about twice the duration. This however is entirely irrelevant to the cost of empower/maximize.

Post U.9 casters are not having any problems with single target sustained damage. In fact with just the 2 new DoT spells and SLA's alone they are nearly matching melee numbers on boss fights but can burst significantly more and do more sustained with intelligent spell use. While i do agree that a better system should be in place for metamagics there is absolutely no need to increase the efficiency as much as you are suggesting for most of it. If you could give me 1 reason why a 100% cost increase for 100% damage increase isn't balanced i would love to hear it. Especially considering the ways to reduce the metamagic cost increases.

By the way, if they went with 50% for empower and 100% for max i would suggest -10% per rank of Imp Meta: Max and -5% per rank of Imp Meta: Empower and similar values from the on item effects. That would take it back down to your suggest 50%/25% values but only with a heavy AP and item investment which is a decision you have to make.

[Sir_L0LL0]

And if they would be level based for cost?

Something like Maximize: 10+lvl/2 <- just an example with a minimum 10 and a maximum 20

[Indoran]

Yes, but most Barbs have obscenely high to-hit, which means (as I understand it) most people leave it on most of the time.

I'm not saying Empower/Maximize should be cost-free, but they should be a cheap damage boost:

Empower: +25% SP
Maximize: +50% SP

...both seem pretty fair.

It's not like casters rule in the DPS stakes as it is; though IMO they *should* rule in DPS, if only for a short time.

why do you compare a barb with a caster??? Each has a different role. Even sorcs they may have great dps but they are not only that... they can have also a utility/buff/debuff/control role somewhat while the barb is limited somewhat to dps / tanking.

In any case this game is about the party, not about one toon.

It's like the ppl that put in their profile that they killed Velah or the Abbott. Dealing the killing blow is not killing the thing!

Also I have seen savants pull aggro :P they have good dps.

And in regards to the sp costs proposed... toooooo low. Maximize is 100% damage with a better opportunity cost as somebody mentioned before. Time is the essence, the most vital resource, even more with cooldowns. So having the costs augmented by 50% for a 100% damage increase is nonsense. Even having the costs augmented by 100% would be cheap...

In any case as somebody else pointed out... if you use maximize all the time, go ahead and invest some AP in reducing it's cost.

[Musouka]

It'd be nice if they made metamagics hotbar based.

Say if you have Maximize spell, it gives you a Maximize Hotbar, and you place what spells you would want Maximized in it.

Or give us a few blank hotbars to set which metamagics would apply to the whole hotbar. So you can have multiple metamagics on one hotbar's spells. Like Max + Empower + Heighten. Don't limit to how many you can assign to a single hotbar. Another alternative is just to allow us to assign metamagics to already existing hotbars.

[Unreliable]

It'd be nice if they made metamagics hotbar based.

Say if you have Maximize spell, it gives you a Maximize Hotbar, and you place what spells you would want Maximized in it.

Or give us a few blank hotbars to set which metamagics would apply to the whole hotbar. So you can have multiple metamagics on one hotbar's spells. Like Max + Empower + Heighten. Don't limit to how many you can assign to a single hotbar. Another alternative is just to allow us to assign metamagics to already existing hotbars.

This would be really nice, so i can keep my SLA's metamagic'd and some other spells not :P

[Dexol]

IMHO a good start would be to have all meta's you have automatically affect all SLA's.

[SiliconShadow]

Sorcerers + Evocation/Enchantment/Necro wizards:
On of the reasons they are so expensive for non SLAs is that they are FREE for SLAs, I always always ALWAYS have heighten+enlarge+maximise+empower+extend turned on, I usually have 500~ or so sp left at each shrine, nuking with my slas and the odd spell.

I keep my clickies up constantly and eardweller when everything must and needs to absaloutly die right away.

Why bother using spells other than your SLAs on trash, burn the sp pool on the big things.

Abjuration wizards:
For these wizards that isn't always the case but that is the choice you have to make, and you have to be on the top of your game, saving your sp when it comes to buffs.

So what do you do?
Do what we always did, overpower and conquer, we are the gods of the arcane, we can destroy maim or help, how long something lives is even more in our control than ever and we can now do it faster longer and harder.

Balance is there, free SLAs and more expensive regular spells for the same damage, if I want to throw 2 lightning bolts on my Air savant Sorcerer at the same power with everything turned on I am mindfull that full spell version just got me 10 SLA casts for no extra damage or benefit except what I threw it just really had to DIE!

Having metamagics per spell would be awesome, but personally isn't being a caster easy enough?

[pjw]

....
By the way, if they went with 50% for empower and 100% for max i would suggest -10% per rank of Imp Meta: Max and -5% per rank of Imp Meta: Empower and similar values from the on item effects...

I guess we can agree to disagree about the numbers.

But it does seem we agree that a percentage based approach would be a good solution rather than the fixed costs as they are now. I'd be happier with +100/+50 that what we have now.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I took maximise and empower at level 1 on my human sorcerer. I don't regret it for even a second. The only situation that I wouldn't appreciate having the option to turn both maximise and empower on is if there were monsters who wouldn't die in 1 hit from a spell.

However, even at level 1 and 2 there were monsters who wouldn't die in 1 hit. Hence, they were useful.

Also, as soon as you have an SLA or other ability that will be amplified by maximise/empower without increasing cost you should definitely have both. For a sorcerer or a wizard that is level 6 and there are other less desirable feats to choose as well (like mental toughness and spell focus'). Hence, choosing maximise and empower at level ~1 is quite a good idea (level 3 can be toughness, level 6 spell focus: ? and for wizard level 5: mental toughness).

Also, for any character with something like a dragonmark or a past life that is affected by the feats you should definitely have both sooner rather than later.

If you don't kill a boss in 1 hit and you don't have maximise and empower, why wouldn't you wish that you had both?