Pale Master and Echoes of Power

[varusso]

Let me put my stance simpler:

I agree PMs get the short end of the stick.

 They dont get to use their SLAs since they are HP based

I dont agree fiddling with LDA is the way to fix that problem.

 The heal over time component is the root of the issue when coupled with EoP. 
It creates a situation where the player can regen HP and SP simultaneously. 
Since PM SLAs use HP to cast and still have access to SP moves this is a problem

I think making chilling touch work on yourself (minus the negative effects) would be an adequate solution to the problem.

Comments?

I would LOVE to see PMs have access to more 'burst' self-healing spells, but I fear how potent they could become. Currently, we have the Death Aura, which is roughly the equivalent of the Cleric Aura, but costing SP instead of a turn. Our Negative Energy Burst is roughly equivalent to the Cleric Burst, again costing SP. Both are potent, but too expensive for EoP. Both are generally sufficient for our needs, especially given that they have a damage component on non-undead or otherwise immune enemies (friggin golems) as well.

When you add in PRE amp to negative spells, including crit chances, as well as sheer lvl boosts, any low lvl spell that would fit under the radar of EoP would also likely still heal for significant amounts. While this feels good, you really only redirected the problem you perceive. Lets say a spell costs the full 12. I heal myself with it, then spam my SLAs (no longer really needing to worry about the HP deficit like I would with LDA). in 12 seconds, I heal myself again. Repeat. Meanwhile, the WF caster repairs himself and must wait for his SP to regen enough to use his SLA, regening and recasting SLA until HP becomes an issue, then regening and casting repair, then gong back to it.

This is really no different in practice than the LDA vs the WF caster. Other than the fact I can let loose with more SLAs than with LDA.

While I dont object to it, really, if your stance is that PM get too much benefit from the LDA being an auto regen (which again, its ****, trust me on this) then this proposal diverges even further from your goal of limiting how quickly a PM could regain both HP and SP. Theres also the balance issue of a PM who ISNT OOM using the spell as additional healing. I think this is the primary reason why the devs have NOT made the spells self-targetable to begin with. Its something I would like to test out, for sure. But I think in the end, for purposes of making EoP function for PMs, the LDA method is the current best. I can virtually guarantee that I would crank more damage AND gain more HP back using your counter-proposal. And if you would then propose nerfing chill touch's bonus received from the PM PRE for healing the PM, or introducing another spell that could be used...no just make LDA cheaper. Its alot easier and it puts a regulator of sorts on how much you can spam your SLA before it becomes a health issue.

[Alexandryte]

On the 2nd thought I think I don't want this change at all

Why?

Because if Turbine will implement it, they will probably nerf PM SL-a. (for their strange understanding of balance = nerfing).

And I don’t want gimp SL-as 99% time because of that 1% time when I can use them almost infinitive.

So sorry guys for this threat but Pale Masters will find some solution for this… (Hmm.. Warforged PM is great for example )

Exactly ^_^

If the other SLAs are an indication of the tipping point for player power versus where Turbine wants player power to be...this would be tipping the scale.

And if the forums have taught me one thing, its that players generally don't like the result when the scales are tipped back into alignment.

As for "balancing = nerfing" it is far easier to subtract from one than to add extra unknowns to many others to balance the scale again. Its just a product of logic, for better or worse, its what works.

[varusso]

On the 2nd thought I think I don't want this change at all

Why?

Because if Turbine will implement it, they will probably nerf PM SL-a. (for their strange understanding of balance = nerfing).

And I don’t want gimp SL-as 99% time because of that 1% time when I can use them almost infinitive.

So sorry guys for this threat but Pale Masters will find some solution for this… (Hmm.. Warforged PM is great for example )

HEY! Come back here and die for my fleeting tactical advantage!!

*SHAKES FIST*

[Alexandryte]

I would LOVE to see PMs have access to more 'burst' self-healing spells, but I fear how potent they could become. Currently, we have the Death Aura, which is roughly the equivalent of the Cleric Aura, but costing SP instead of a turn. Our Negative Energy Burst is roughly equivalent to the Cleric Burst, again costing SP. Both are potent, but too expensive for EoP. Both are generally sufficient for our needs, especially given that they have a damage component on non-undead or otherwise immune enemies (friggin golems) as well.

When you add in PRE amp to negative spells, including crit chances, as well as sheer lvl boosts, any low lvl spell that would fit under the radar of EoP would also likely still heal for significant amounts. While this feels good, you really only redirected the problem you perceive. Lets say a spell costs the full 12. I heal myself with it, then spam my SLAs (no longer really needing to worry about the HP deficit like I would with LDA). in 12 seconds, I heal myself again. Repeat. Meanwhile, the WF caster repairs himself and must wait for his SP to regen enough to use his SLA, regening and recasting SLA until HP becomes an issue, then regening and casting repair, then gong back to it.

This is really no different in practice than the LDA vs the WF caster. Other than the fact I can let loose with more SLAs than with LDA.

While I dont object to it, really, if your stance is that PM get too much benefit from the LDA being an auto regen (which again, its ****, trust me on this) then this proposal diverges even further from your goal of limiting how quickly a PM could regain both HP and SP. Theres also the balance issue of a PM who ISNT OOM using the spell as additional healing. I think this is the primary reason why the devs have NOT made the spells self-targetable to begin with. Its something I would like to test out, for sure. But I think in the end, for purposes of making EoP function for PMs, the LDA method is the current best. I can virtually guarantee that I would crank more damage AND gain more HP back using your counter-proposal. And if you would then propose nerfing chill touch's bonus received from the PM PRE for healing the PM, or introducing another spell that could be used...no just make LDA cheaper. Its alot easier and it puts a regulator of sorts on how much you can spam your SLA before it becomes a health issue.

The key difference is time versus opportunity cost. Its the fact that LDA skews that even if the regen per tick might be small....its constantly going for the duration.

Chilling touch differs from what the original SLAs did in one simple fact:

Chilling touch SP->HP
PM SLA HP-> greater HP


Chilling touch is also the only low level damaging negative energy spell that would be castable on EoP. Restoring a max of 5d3+15 per usage would be acceptable if its cost were on the higher end threshold of EoP (ie 12sp) leaving WF still in the lead with 3d6+6+15 restored.

It would allow PM to heal in the same fashion that is ok for other divines and (non-fleshie) arcanes...using one resource for another and then forcing some wait while sp regens back to 12. The time and power constant is preserved and PM still has access to SLAs. It might be slightly erring on the side of PMs but low enough that it is negligible and not warranting a nerf.


Thats pretty much how I view it.

[varusso]

The key difference is time versus opportunity cost. Its the fact that LDA skews that even if the regen per tick might be small....its constantly going for the duration.

Chilling touch differs from what the original SLAs did in one simple fact:

Chilling touch SP->HP
PM SLA HP-> greater HP


Chilling touch is also the only low level damaging negative energy spell that would be castable on EoP. Restoring a max of 5d3+15 per usage would be acceptable if its cost were on the higher end threshold of EoP (ie 12sp) leaving WF still in the lead with 3d6+6+15 restored.

It would allow PM to heal in the same fashion that is ok for other divines and (non-fleshie) arcanes...using one resource for another and then forcing some wait while sp regens back to 12. The time and power constant is preserved and PM still has access to SLAs. It might be slightly erring on the side of PMs but low enough that it is negligible and not warranting a nerf.


Thats pretty much how I view it.

Except, as I have tried to explain, this is not the case. Chill Touch would do WAY more than that when you factor in my bonuses for PM Pre and My potency item. It would heal for MUCH more, in a burst, than LDA would heal for over its entire duration. LDA simply is NOT going to do anything other than offset the SLA damage. Unless you stop casting SLAs and go with crappy low level spells, which puts PM behind the other casters in terms of both healing AND damage. And if you start trying to peal off bonuses from PM/items etc away from Chill Touch -- then its not worth making it a heal-effect spell.

LDA simply is NOT as powerful as you think it is, seriously. Changing it as OP suggested would balance out just fine against other casters in terms of damage AND healing over time once EoP kicks in. Realistically, if you get to the point where EoP is even on (at higher levels) then something is going horribly wrong anyway. But LDA as an EoP-castable spell just is not a balance breaker; it actually DOES restore the balance of benefits to each affected class.

[Khurse]

They got rid of the big green aura.
That is more than enough for me

[Alexandryte]

Except, as I have tried to explain, this is not the case. Chill Touch would do WAY more than that when you factor in my bonuses for PM Pre and My potency item. It would heal for MUCH more, in a burst, than LDA would heal for over its entire duration. LDA simply is NOT going to do anything other than offset the SLA damage. Unless you stop casting SLAs and go with crappy low level spells, which puts PM behind the other casters in terms of both healing AND damage. And if you start trying to peal off bonuses from PM/items etc away from Chill Touch -- then its not worth making it a heal-effect spell.

LDA simply is NOT as powerful as you think it is, seriously. Changing it as OP suggested would balance out just fine against other casters in terms of damage AND healing over time once EoP kicks in. Realistically, if you get to the point where EoP is even on (at higher levels) then something is going horribly wrong anyway. But LDA as an EoP-castable spell just is not a balance breaker; it actually DOES restore the balance of benefits to each affected class.

But the question is...

Will it do more healing than an equivalently specced healer (cure serious with enhancements and potency item) or warforged (repair serious with enhancements and potency item) ?

I see what you are saying. I don't argue that fact when its put that way. I'm just stating mechanics wise it would be closer to the others and thus much easier to tweak later down the road.

[varusso]

OK Alex, to give you an idea:
Using Chill Touch (4 SP) on various trash in the Vale, I deal roughly 50 per hit, ~80 on a crit. Assuming I 'hit' myself for a similar amount, thats 50-80 HP each time I heal. And given how often I crit, 80 is going to pop up pretty often.

LDA heals me for 1-7 per tick, with a relatively rare crit of 13. Lets call it 5 average. Over the course of its duration (1:20 IIRC, or 40 ticks), LDA would heal 200 HP. Casting CT every 4 seconds, it would heal a min of 1000 HP over the same amount of time. And that doesnt even allow for crits. In practical terms, it looks like this, allowing for cooldowns on spells and SLAs:

In a four second interval:
(1) Necrotic Blast (costs 10 HP), Necrotic Bolt (costs 5 HP), Chill Touch (gain 50 HP) = Net Gain of 35 HP, regen SP back to 12

vs.

(2) Necrotic Blast (costs 10 HP), Tick LDA for 5, Necrotic Bolt (costs 5 HP), Tick LDA for 5 = Net LOSS of 5 HP, SP remains at 12.

Now in reality, LDA ticks for 1-3 much more often than it ticks for 5, and WAY more than it ticks for 7. So the HP deficit will actually build up much faster than this. I have deliberately used numbers NOT in my favor here. As stated, LDA simply is NOT the uber HOT you seem to think it is. The one advantage of method 2 is that I could slide in Necrotic Ray once per 12-second cycle (10 SP) until I had to save SP for recasting LDA. But I would not be able to spam my SLAs without very quickly killing myself, so that only really helps to bring the baseline damage that I SHOULD be getting from spammed SLAs back to more or less center.

Again, I would not object to having Chill Touch (or whatever) become a self-healing spell. But with inherent bonuses in the PM class and gear, it would become MUCh more powerful than you realize, and would in fact be WAY more powerful than the LDA -- which, as shown, simply cannot keep up with the SLAs. The PM must either wait for that regen or get killed. He could do a nice bit of burst DPS, then have to sideline himself before dying from his own SLAs -- or grabbing aggro and getting killed cos his real DA is not up. But he could NOT afford to cast the SLAs indefinitely without significant pauses using LDA as his healing source.

Does this help?

[Alexandryte]

OK Alex, to give you an idea:
Using Chill Touch (4 SP) on various trash in the Vale, I deal roughly 50 per hit, ~80 on a crit. Assuming I 'hit' myself for a similar amount, thats 50-80 HP each time I heal. And given how often I crit, 80 is going to pop up pretty often.

LDA heals me for 1-7 per tick, with a relatively rare crit of 13. Lets call it 5 average. Over the course of its duration (1:20 IIRC, or 40 ticks), LDA would heal 200 HP. Casting CT every 4 seconds, it would heal a min of 1000 HP over the same amount of time. And that doesnt even allow for crits. In practical terms, it looks like this, allowing for cooldowns on spells and SLAs:

In a four second interval:
(1) Necrotic Blast (costs 10 HP), Necrotic Bolt (costs 5 HP), Chill Touch (gain 50 HP) = Net Gain of 35 HP, regen SP back to 12

vs.

(2) Necrotic Blast (costs 10 HP), Tick LDA for 5, Necrotic Bolt (costs 5 HP), Tick LDA for 5 = Net LOSS of 5 HP, SP remains at 12.

Now in reality, LDA ticks for 1-3 much more often than it ticks for 5, and WAY more than it ticks for 7. So the HP deficit will actually build up much faster than this. I have deliberately used numbers NOT in my favor here. As stated, LDA simply is NOT the uber HOT you seem to think it is. The one advantage of method 2 is that I could slide in Necrotic Ray once per 12-second cycle (10 SP) until I had to save SP for recasting LDA. But I would not be able to spam my SLAs without very quickly killing myself, so that only really helps to bring the baseline damage that I SHOULD be getting from spammed SLAs back to more or less center.

Again, I would not object to having Chill Touch (or whatever) become a self-healing spell. But with inherent bonuses in the PM class and gear, it would become MUCh more powerful than you realize, and would in fact be WAY more powerful than the LDA -- which, as shown, simply cannot keep up with the SLAs. The PM must either wait for that regen or get killed. He could do a nice bit of burst DPS, then have to sideline himself before dying from his own SLAs -- or grabbing aggro and getting killed cos his real DA is not up. But he could NOT afford to cast the SLAs indefinitely without significant pauses using LDA as his healing source.

Does this help?

Yes indeed. The perfect english while getting straight to a point also helped for ease of reading.

I concur.

[FengXian]

/not signed

let's give PM's Echoes of HP, shall we? XD (I have a PM myself and I'm ok with SLA's as they are, don't feel the need for echoes either...)

[nisbik]

Pale Master get almost nothing for new tech: Echoes of Power

When PM get below 12 SP, they can’t cast SL-a any more, because they use HP instead SP (and can't selfheal anymore)

EDIT: But on 2nd Thought I think that is fine.

There is not need for any change.

Sorry for disturbing.

anyone else think this guy has done the twelve quest "delirium" one to many time. i think hes been drinking with the beholders to much.