What was wrong with D&D 3.5 crafting rules?

[Drakos]

I don't quite understand what was wrong with using a combination of skills and feats instead of some sort of 'leveling system' in order to represent crafting skill. I also don't understand what was so wrong with using mostly common materials(refined metals, rare woods, gemstones etc), the occasional rare material(black pudding bones) and spellcasting to create them from.

What was so borked with a crafting system that more closely followed 3.5 edition rules that it had to be replaced by a complex and unrelated add-on system instead?

While we're at it, why can we still not craft potions and scrolls?

All the moaning about the litany of feats you would have to take to use it. In 3.5 edition you needed crafting feats and in DDO people would not want to spend their feats on a crafting system.

Also, it compleatly leaves out non-spell casters. Turbin would not want to alienate the players who do not like playing spell-casters.

edit: finally, people would not like to have to spend their xp to build magic items. This was one of the major issues with 3.5 crafting, you actually loose life experiences (aka leveling experience) when you make magic items. Totally does not make any sense.

[Ookami007]

The D&D 3.5 crafting rules are bad for 3.5 D&D, and would be far worse for a computer game, and even worse for a multiplayer game.

Seriously: the failure of crafting in D&D has been extensively documented.

Actually... this is NOT a true statement.

The failure of DM's in D&D has been extensively documented. REAL DMs have no problem with the crafting system. It's quite easy to translate gold prices into rare ingredients that - although they have a market value of x gp, simply aren't available.

In fact, it's easy to create entire adventures around getting the ingredients - which is more fun than buying, removes the "instant" aspect of item creation and makes the item more unique.

It's also fun to watch the players pretty much carve up any creature they come across on the off chance that the parts they need might be usable to create items later.... of course... without refrigeration...

That concept is completely opposed to D&D 3.5 crafting, where the only material you need is gold pieces.

LITERALLY, yes. But any DM worth his salt knows how to read between the lines. Gold piece value is just that... the VALUE... it's for ingredients, incense, stones, etc.

It's easy to translate that into ACTUAL parts... and then, as DM, determine the availability of the parts.

Hunting down the ingredients becomes an adventure in itself... and although the parts themselves cost x gp, it might take a lot more in adventuring, travel, money for information, books, etc. to FIND the parts.

Again... the failure of bad DM's has been extensively documented.

[Angelus_dead]

The failure of DM's in D&D has been extensively documented. REAL DMs have no problem

The results achieved by people not using a system are non-representative of that system.

If some DMs decide to go come up with their own variant crafting system instead of following the D&D 3.5 rules, good for them... but that doesn't support the claim that D&D 3.5 crafting rules are a good thing to follow. In reality, the fact that those people found it useful to change the rules counts as a point against using those rules in other projects.

[donfilibuster]

If some DMs decide to go come up with their own variant crafting system instead of following the D&D 3.5 rules, good for them... but that doesn't support the claim that D&D 3.5 crafting rules are a good thing to follow. In reality, the fact that those people found it useful to change the rules counts as a point against using those rules in other projects.

I believe the quote would rather be "REAL DMs have no problem with the existing rules".

You need no variants or house rules and still manage a good game, munchkins would be a separate problem.

Taking out things does not count as house rules, delimiting your setting does not imply going on new rules.
It's just part of the campaign, the whole of the rules is meant to be a campaign building kit.

The gold to components is easy to grasp, the rules do not change one bit, you just can't buy everything you want.
Likewise there's nothing wrong with not allowing other things in the books, core or not.
Like weapons, PrEs, spells, horses, races, etc.

If magic shops are not common so be it, and X'endrik is isolated enough so that Stormreach is not a proper city with wizardry services you can access.
In this sense the game is nicely set, in which you play a mercenary making a name in the eye of the Stormreach Patrons.

[yawumpus]

need to try playing some of the 0e D&D clones (or at least learn it well enough to run a session).

Or you can be a slave to the rules. In which case crafting is easy.

1. create Pun-Pun
2. will artifacts/relics into existence.
3. profit

While 3.5 covers a lot of the rules, it still needs a DM to manage the game (and possibly counter lawyer the rules to protect the monsters). Most of the changes in DDO stem from the fact that it has to work with a DM that only knows how to follow the rules (the turbine servers).

[Angelus_dead]

I believe the quote would rather be "REAL DMs have no problem with the existing rules".

You need no variants or house rules and still manage a good game, munchkins would be a separate problem.

The statement to which I was replying advocated the DM invent a whole system of collecting special rare ingredients to build magic items, such as was used in AD&D 1e. To graft that mechanic into D&D 3.5 would certainly be a house rule.

Taking out things does not count as house rules

False. Here, watch this: "No Natural Spell feat". See? That was a house rule.

Any alteration to the official rules is a house rule, whether it's an addition or deletion.

Likewise there's nothing wrong with not allowing other things in the books, core or not.

As already repeatedly explained: where it becomes wrong is if you selectively edit your active ruleset but still claim to be using the official rules.

If magic shops are not common so be it

The Dungeon Master's Guide and Eberron Campaign Setting have rules for how easy it is to purchase magic items. If a DM decides to change that availability, then she's using house rules.

[MrkGrismer]

Actually... this is NOT a true statement.

The failure of DM's in D&D has been extensively documented. REAL DMs have no problem with the crafting system. It's quite easy to translate gold prices into rare ingredients that - although they have a market value of x gp, simply aren't available.

In fact, it's easy to create entire adventures around getting the ingredients - which is more fun than buying, removes the "instant" aspect of item creation and makes the item more unique.

It's also fun to watch the players pretty much carve up any creature they come across on the off chance that the parts they need might be usable to create items later.... of course... without refrigeration...




LITERALLY, yes. But any DM worth his salt knows how to read between the lines. Gold piece value is just that... the VALUE... it's for ingredients, incense, stones, etc.

It's easy to translate that into ACTUAL parts... and then, as DM, determine the availability of the parts.

Hunting down the ingredients becomes an adventure in itself... and although the parts themselves cost x gp, it might take a lot more in adventuring, travel, money for information, books, etc. to FIND the parts.

Again... the failure of bad DM's has been extensively documented.

In other words, Real DM's don't play by the rules, they make them up. (or play a different system)

[Seikojin]

I think the topic is going from a DDO related topic to a Pnp related topic. O.o

[donfilibuster]

As already repeatedly explained: where it becomes wrong is if you selectively edit your active ruleset but still claim to be using the official rules.

Ok, so they are house rules, but the point remains that it is the setting that defines what things are in and what things are out.
The DM is not supposed to choose everything from the books for the campaign.
I see nothing in DDO stating it fully uses the 3.5e set, but do use house rules and there's nothing wrong about it.

The "gold to components" may be house rule but is fairly possible as far as RAW goes.
Every crafting entry says something like "The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost".
It stands to reason that the gold value assumes access to the lab, library, materials, etc.

The ECS hardly say anything to restrict crafting but the campaign book is mostly for Khorvaire.
I do not have the book for Stormreach to see if the city follows convention but i won't expect to find everything available on Khorvaire in X'endrik.