Big bag of Meh

[LordDamax]

Gotta say after reading all the developements here on lammaland since U9 went up, I'm kinda Meh about the whole thing.

Sure, the crafting is cool and I'll likely stick around for it... but the amount of drama and garbage over the spell pass has left me completely... blah.

Sorcs DPS was absurdly sub par to begin with. Seems the fix to this was for the devs to reduce the SP costs on un-meta'ed spells, and call it a day. That doesnt fix anything. It just allows me to do sub par damage, longer.

I'm losing AP AND elemental damage and gaining nothing in return. If I take the PrE lines I'm losing more damage, and gaining a little in return, but for my chosen element, fire, half the end game ****, and every important raid boss is immune anyway.

But, when I'm outta mana, I can pewpew some spells, kinda slowly, balanced very carefully!! to be sure I dont do too much damage! And lets increase the cooldowns of those SLAs to be sure I'm not really too effective.

Sucks to have the SLA cooldowns increased so that on the rare ocassion I'm an idiot and run out of SP, that I dont accidently do something effective.

Oh and lets not forget one of the extremely minor benefits the sorc has over the wizard anymore - cooldowns. Now for just about any non-DPS spell, my cooldown is barely any better than the wizard's is. Whee.

Yeah, I'm kinda ranting. Maybe whining a bit. But my mood sucks, and reading about the latest changes this morning sucked my mood further down.

I wanted to be excited about Fire Savant. I truly, honestly did.

I'm just not seeing it as being worth it. One of the only useful things about the PrE just got nerfed into not stacking. Whee. Now I can increase my mediocre DPS by 15% more. My sorc capstone did that at 20% and it still was utterly unimpressive.

When a barbarian can crit for 800 damage, and have the HP to take a few hits, and NEVER run out of those 800 damage hits, and I'm pewpewing for 200 a pop, then run out of SP...

Blah.

I dont want bars nerfed. I want to do a HELL of a lot more damage than the **** barb until I run outta SP.

Meh.

[Trillea]

Agreed on all counts.

+1 to you sir.

[LordDamax]

I just want something to be EXCITED about.

Crafting isnt exactly it - the grind to get to make anything reasonable seems... mind numbing.

I'm all for balancing broken stuff. And sorc's have been broken for a long time. But all the balancing seems to be to make every spell as equally effective as all other spells (In other words: Spell selection doesnt matter, just smash buttons), and NOT making spell DPS actually BETTER.

Sure, WoF isnt overpowered now, and a mob makiong a save vs FoD does damage now... but what was actually FIXED? What is there to be excited about in the sorc PrEs?

I'm just not seeing it. Maybe it, as Torc said in the other thread, that I eat DDO for breakfast... But if thats the case, why cant WE, the DDO eaters, get something out of this update?

So much balancing has been done for that echoes of power thing. We, the DDO eaters, don't run out of SP... but we're nerf'ed because of those who do. Its frustrating.

We want something too. And this, none of it, was it. (Non-crafting - like I said - crafting seems cool. It just seems too grindy to feel rewarding)

[FastTaco]

Yea I'm not too exciting by the crafting either, its just throwing more grind on top a already huge mountain of grind.

[Uska]

yes to pretty much all

[Noelemahc]

Yeah I kind of agree. While reducing sp cost for some spells was nice, it doesn't do much because metamagics are the main cost of the spell. So in reality you might get 2 more Polar Rays out of your blue bar than you did before. Sure you can turn the metas off to be more sp efficient, but your dps is absolutely subpar and barely worth the party spot considering your crowd control abilities are almost nonexistent for a Sorc, especially post update 9. The good crowd control spells that I did use got nerfed hard, and you have to completely and solely focus on crowd control if you want to do so, and even then you're still worse than a Wizard at it.

I thought splitting up the elemental lines was a brilliant idea. I've been wanting that for a long time. The implementation of it however, is less desirable. You end up losing a LOT of APs with the way it's currently set up now. Prior to update, I have enough APs on my Sorc to fully spec the Fire/Ice line, AND the Acid/Lightning line. Post update I can fully spec in 1 line, and only half in 2 other lines for more AP than it cost to fully spec in all 4 before. The main culprit here is the crit enhancements though. If the crit chance and crit damage lines were combined, then it would be perfect. As it is now, it costs DOUBLE for the crit lines and in my opinion hurts arcanes more than it helps.

That's the biggest gripe I have with the update honestly, and after asking about it in multiple threads and getting 0 responses about it, looks like it's going to stay as is. At first I was really excited to hear about the Savants finally coming out. Now I'm honestly kind of dreading the changes in update 9. Sure I become marginally stronger in one element, but I become significantly weaker in all of the others. That's not a boost to casters, that's a (probably unintended) nerf. Anyway, just my thoughts.

[redraider]

Yes son, you CAN get an AMEN!

AMEN!

[LordDamax]

Sure I become marginally stronger in one element, but I become significantly weaker in all of the others. That's not a boost to casters, that's a (probably unintended) nerf. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Thats one of my biggest gripes. The sorc PrE's make you marginally stronger.

Whup a de do!

The sorc capstone made me marginally stronger too. My response to that was whup a de do.

Give me something truly USEFUL. Let me take elemental form and gain immunities. THAT would be worth Savant'ing for. I feel like the Savants are like the ******** cousin of the Wizard PrE's - they get practically everything we get, AND more.

I get it Turbine - you're trying to make the use of metamagics not mandatory. Hey, turn off your Metas, and you can do a LOT more damage!

Yeah, but at the cost of DPS. DPS isnt damage. It's damage per second. Its not about efficient damage, it's about pumping damage into that boss to make it dead.

And running around with cheapo 20sp polar rays or whatever they are now at 200 damage a pop every 6 seconds, thats jack squatto. Sure thats awesome in lv 13 content. In lv 17 content all that does is annoy the mobs that smack you through a wall in 2-4 hits, depending on how much you sacrificed into Con and Toughness feats. Sorcs shouldnt HAVE to max con to be viable. We shouldnt HAVE to have max/empower to even remotely be able to DPS.

But we do.

Encouraging us to turn off max/empower doesnt fix anything. Sure, we can pewpew for LONGER, but we pewpew less effectively.

And bumping my max caster level by 3, and giving me a non stacking 15% damage buff increases my DPS by about, oh, it's not worth figuring out, because the numbers suck that bad.

Truly, I wanted to be excited about U9. I'm just still trying to find a reason.

(Again, crafting disclaimer: If it becomes less grindy it may be a huge winner. But from all I've seen, the grind is astronomical)

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

I too am quite baffled/disappointed by the way this whole savant thing is playing out.
Im not one for complaining on the boards, I have rolled with all the changes over the years, and I do think the game is head and shoulders above any other mmo out there. I hope to be playing ddo for years to come.
But I feel compelled to speak my mind in this case.
I love playing sorcs, is my favorite class. I play drow, I like being squishy, I like having to be careful, and I have been looking forward to getting access to a PrE that will make my fav class more powerful/interesting/useful, etc.
But I dont think I will be taking savant and that bums me out.
When I look at the other PrEs savant just doesnt measure up. So much sacrifice for so little gain. Show me another PrE that basically chops off one arm to grow the other slightly longer.
Look at clerics and radiant servant. There is pretty much no good reason not to go RS. It just makes clerics so much more powerful and the sacrifice is a few enhancements you usually might not take. But the bonus healing doesnt mean you take a hit anywhere else. Theres no "sure you can heal with turns and your turns regenerate now but your -9 on your offensive spell dcs". If that were the case would anyone take RS? Maybe your dedicated healbot/manashrine player but... maybe not even them as you have to sacrifice turns to heal so the manashrine part takes a hit.
Really I was looking at air savant as a reason to maybe throw an electric spell once in a while (as opposed to never at the moment) and the bonus of ff, abundant step and immune to knockdown. But Ive lived without all that stuff for 5 years and to have the ONE earth spell I keep slotted (Flesh to Stone) rendered virtually unusable... yeah I dont use it much but I have it, its taking up a spell slot, and when I rack it up into a fast casting slot I expect it to work. And thats just one situational spell but it has me balking. Lets not even talk about fire and ice. Give up one for the other? I dont friggin think so, both too useful in too many situations, when one doesnt work the other usually will. No way Im taking hits on either of these. But air and earth I was contemplating simply for opening up to new spells I usually would ignore, being a sorc who has to make choices and stick with them.
I am used to living with sacrifice, its part of playing a sorc. But I think the sacrifice for playing a savant is too much for too little.
No more extend on offensive spells, okay I can live with that, WoF gets saves now on entering, okay fine, I can work w that too, but I have to agree with the sentiment that the benefits from going savant and specializing in ONE elemental line while being so severely penalized in another is just looking to be not worth it to me.
When I look at all the class PrEs I see none that jump out at me as having to give up so much. Tempest maybe, having to take so many feats just to get 100% offhand. BUt youre not really losing much either. But barbs, pallys, rogues, bards, etc, just great options with virtually NO scarifice. I love my warchanter, and my spellsinger, and my assassin, and my knight of the chalice. I dont have a frenzied berzerker but they sound killer. Literally! Kensai? Heck even Arcane Archer (and I dont like pew pew rangers much, but AA is more versatile than being restricted to a class anyway)
And let me be clear, I really dont care about being Mr Uber Sorc press button of death and laugh at the cries of my dying foes. But I dont really see how going savant is supposed to appeal to me. Radiant Servant -- and so many of the others -- are so much better of a PrE for their respective classes. The new FvS PrE looks pretty awesome too, what do these classes give up for their respective gains? Nothing?

I know my little whine will probably be ignored by the powers that be, and Im not a number cruncher, hats off to those of you that figure out the minutiae and make your dps charts and crafting charts and class builds and all that good stuff. Your dedication has made me a better and more knowledgable player. And especially those of you who do play on lammania and help test all the new stuff, find all the rough edges and glaring errors and help make this a better game. I have read the posts defending the current state of savants and I appreciate the objectivity, but so far I am having to side with those who think the savant PrE simply isnt very good. But I do hope to be wrong.
In the meantime I have started working on a pale master, get a little perspective, see how the other arcane class lives. Maybe mess around with archmage too.
And try to remain a bit optimistic that savant will actually be worth taking when it finally sees the shores of stormreach.

And lastly...
Admittedly, I am also a bit annoyed about the redesign of banishers, smiters, disrupters, etc. Why even carry a banisher any more when vorpals do exactly the same thing in more circumstances? Banishers dont work in Sins for ex but vorpals do. Was having rapier swinging rogues and bards able to carve up the vale or running with the devils really that much of an issue?
Really? REALLY?
I guess its DPS or bust in ddo now.

Ok Im done. Gonna go dry my tears on a lousy +1 tome.


/inside joke

[asphodeli]

U9 - the Update that undoes everything before U9. Mega-extreme-ultra-grind!!1!11 for crafting, lackluster PrE offering for sorcs, magic system tweaks that is somewhat good and mostly bad.

Thank goodness I'm no longer a DDO addict.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Im sure the Devs are laughing all the time...

There are Threads about how bad the Sorcerer Prestige Classes are and how they even make Sorcerers worse.

Then at the same time there are Threads about the Sorcerer being overpowered after U9 and that melees are useless after U9.

No..really you guys are crazy.

[Tom318]

Im sure the Devs are laughing all the time...

There are Threads about how bad the Sorcerer Prestige Classes are and how they even make Sorcerers worse.

Then at the same time there are Threads about the Sorcerer being overpowered after U9 and that melees are useless after U9.

No..really you guys are crazy.

Now all we need is for someone to gather them all in one thread, and we will have serious popcorn

[elujin]

i like

what about AoV its looks solid
i like the change to helpless mobs removal of epic wards
half epic monster hp
changes to disrupters and the likes

i am bit scared for my monks ki but i think it will be ok .

i don't have sorcerer it seems ok but i don't know.

wait ... no devs i didn't say i liked stuff !!
plz plz don't nerf it T_T

[Zorack00]

You can be excited about being closer to Update 10, if it would be any different that is

[LordDamax]

Im sure the Devs are laughing all the time...

There are Threads about how bad the Sorcerer Prestige Classes are and how they even make Sorcerers worse.

Then at the same time there are Threads about the Sorcerer being overpowered after U9 and that melees are useless after U9.

No..really you guys are crazy.

Craaaazy! I know! People who have different opinions... it makes no sense! We should all think and act the same! But we cant! HALP! AAIGH!

[ProdigalGuru]

I really do not see the "grind" people keep referring to...

Want a grind? Go play Star Wars Galaxies (like I did for 5 years), then talk to me about grind.

[LordDamax]

I really do not see the "grind" people keep referring to...

Want a grind? Go play Star Wars Galaxies (like I did for 5 years), then talk to me about grind.

You do realize that pointing out something that's worse than what someone's complaining about, and using that to try and nullify the argument makes no sense right?

"You're upset about your friend being killed? Ha! Thats nothing to be upset over, my wife and kids were killed in a car crash. THATS upsetting!"

"You lost your job? Crybaby. I've been unemployed and living in my mom's basement for 8 years. THATS worth being upset over!"

Just because SWG had a bad grind doesnt mean anything less isnt worth complaining about.

And this isnt SWG anyway so who the hell cares about what the SWG grind was. It has NO BEARING on this whatsoever.

[Dendrix]

Grind? I levelled up to grandmaster in all standard tradeskills in EverQuest I (including alchemy). And a GrandMaster maxed out trophey in each one.

That was grind.

And I will never do such again.

[Zenako]

I strongly suspect that a lot of the people who have been clamoring for some sort of crafting grind (and be honest, in almost each and every game with crafting it is a grind of some level) are going to be on board with the new crafting system. The rest of the players are going to be far less interested. Those who want quick item rewards will denounce it as another useless grind to be avoided, yet at the same time criticize any stuff made with it as being over/under powered at the same time.

The spell pass on Sorcs and PrE's was being made to reduce the imbalance at many points of the game. A LOT of players never reach cap, and likely quit or stop playing when it seems their character of choice becomes an afterthought. Having uber powerful characters makes this far more likely to occur, so hitting some characters lines with an incremental nerf bat might well address those issues.

In a small group of vets the pecking order of "best" might be shifting about a bit, and even more so, the pecking of "best in all content" might no longer be so clear. One of the somewhat significant limits of a Sorc was supposed to be limited spell choices, but with actual gameplay choices of spells that were deemed "good and useful" being so few, that all but removed that restriction from being a handicap vs a Wizard. For the longest time, anyone choosing to play a Wizard was scoffed at for being a "noob" when you could just play a Sorc and have more Spell Points, quicker casting and basically no loss of spell flexibility that mattered in the game. It appears that behind some of the spell pass changes was a desire to promote the options of being other types of casters and having a viable role in quests, at all levels, not just at cap.

Now clearly some of the issues at Cap appear to be of concern, but based on what I have seen, some of those issues are also overblown once you factor into the game play all the other changes being made to EPIC level quests. It looks to me like they took the Himalayan Mountains and beat them down into the Appalachian Mountains. The differences between the highest peaks and the valleys (best and worst characters in quest effectiveness) have been all moved closer to a norm. Their will still be "best" choices, just the magnitude of the difference will no longer be as pronounced, which in turn leaves a lot more options for tactics and methods to be considered viable. When one method was twice as fast as another, everyone wanted to use that one true way. When one method is only 10% faster than another, all but the hardest of the hard core, are far more likely to entertain alternative ways of doing a quest.