If they cost spell points, they aren't spell-like abilities, they're spells!

[Velexia]

Get rid of echoes of power, it's ungainly, and feels like duct tape (Kind of like DA, but not in a "it punishes the players for not playing inside of the box" kind of way).

Replace these spells that you've given to Savants and Archmages with spell-like abilities, adjust cooldown timers as necessary, and you're done! Easy peasy.

In fact, you could even give more spell-like abilities, to make up for extending the cooldown timers, so that there are more options, and more to cycle through.

[pjw]

In fact, you could even give more spell-like abilities, to make up for extending the cooldown timers, so that there are more options, and more to cycle through.

And once you have done this, your journey to the dark side will be complete. Or at least, the journey to the 'WoW-side'.

My least favourite part of playing my PM (who I really do like playing) is the click-fest on timed SLAs. At least the FvS archon is set-and-forget.

[Velexia]

Savant Spell-Like Ability Suggestions

Air I
Shocking Grasp (Level 1)
Expeditious Retreat (Level 1)
Gust of Wind(Level 2)
Air II
Blur (Level 2)
Displacement (Level 3)
Lightning Bolt (Level 3)
Air III
Solid Fog (Level 4)
Ball Lightning (Level 5)
Chain Lightning (Level 6)

Earth I
Acid Spray (Level 1)
Jump (Level 1)
Ooze Puppet (Level 2)
Earth II
Melf's Acid Arrow(Level 2)
Acid Blast (Level 3)
Stinking Cloud (Level 3)
Earth III
Stoneskin (Level 4)
Cloudkill (Level 5)
Flesh to Stone (Level 6)

Fire I
Burning Hands (Level 1)
Hypnotism (Level 1)
Flaming Sphere(Level 2)
Fire II
Scorching Ray (Level 2)
Fireball (Level 3)
Flame Arrow (Level 3)
Fire III
Fire Trap (Level 4)
Symbol of Flame (Level 4... lack of fire spells at level 5)
Wall of Fire (Level 4... lack of fire spells at level 6)

Water I
Niac's Cold Ray(Level 1)
Merfolk's Blessing(Level 1)
Fog Cloud (Level 2)
Water II
Snowball Swarm (Level 2)
Sleet Storm (Level 3)
Frost Lance (Level 3)
Water III
Ice Storm (Level 4)
Cone of Cold(Level 5)
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere(Level 6)

Void I
Magic Missile (Level 1)
Ray of Enfeeblement(Level 1)
Invisibility (Level 2)
Void II
Blindness (Level 2)
Ray of Exhaustion (Level 3)
Chain Missiles (Level 3)
Void III
Force Missiles (Level 4)
Waves of Fatigue (Level 5)
Disintegrate (Level 6)

Archmage Spell-Like Ability Suggestions

Abjurer I
Protection from Evil
Shield
Abjurer II
Resist Energy
Abjurer III
Dispel Magic
Protection from Energy
Abjurer IV
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
Stoneskin
Abjurer V
Break Enchantment (Lack of abjuration spells at level 2)
Dismissal

Conjurer I
Grease
Niac's Cold Ray
Conjurer II
Glitterdust
Web
Conjurer III
Stinking Cloud
Summon Monster III
Conjurer IV
Dimension Door
Solid Fog
Conjurer V
Cloudkill

Enchanter I
Hypnotism
Sleep
Enchanter II
Otto's Resistable Dance
Touch of Idiocy
Enchanter III
Deep Slumber
Hold Person
Enchanter IV
Charm Monster
Crushing Despair
Enchanter V
Hold Monster

Evoker I
Magic Missile
Niac's Cold Ray
Evoker II
Gust of Wind
Scorching Ray
Evoker III
Chain Missiles
Lightning Bolt
Evoker IV
Fire Shield
Force Missiles
Evoker V
Cyclonic Blast

Illusionist I (Severe Lack of Illusion Spells)
Invisibility (Lack of Illusion spells at level 1)
Hypnotic Pattern (Lack of Illusion spells at level 1)
Illusionist II
Blur
Illusionist III
Displacement
Illusionist IV
Phantasmal Killer
Illusionist V
Invisibility, Mass
Shadow Walk

Necromancer I
Chill Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Necromancer II
Blindness
Command Undead
Necromancer III
Halt Undead
Ray of Exhaustion
Necromancer IV
Burning Blood
Enervation
Necromancer V
Waves of Fatigue

Transmuter I
Jump
Repair Light Damage
Transmuter II
Knock
Repair Moderate Damage
Transmuter III
Haste
Repair Serious Damage
Transmuter IV
Repair Critical Damage
Stone to Flesh
Transmuter V
Flesh to Stone (Lack of spells at level 4 and 5)

[Velexia]

And once you have done this, your journey to the dark side will be complete. Or at least, the journey to the 'WoW-side'.

My least favourite part of playing my PM (who I really do like playing) is the click-fest on timed SLAs. At least the FvS archon is set-and-forget.

So... making spell like abilities actually spell like abilities... which are in D&D... would be a 'bad' thing... because of WoW somehow. I don't follow.

[Emili]

So... making spell like abilities actually spell like abilities... which are in D&D... would be a 'bad' thing... because of WoW somehow. I don't follow.

I suppose if they set those which need to be x per day type options with a regen timer as they are in DnD such will be in line.

[Scraap]

I suppose if they set those which need to be x per day type options with a regen timer as they are in DnD such will be in line.

Something line 5/tier (so max 25), or 10/tier (equivalent of carrying around a wand)?
Seems anything lower would be tough to justify.

[Velexia]

There are such things as "at will" spell-like abilities...

[Scraap]

There are such things as "at will" spell-like abilities...

Figured the other point was brought up re tier 3+, so 1-2 free, 3-5 limited. Would let them throw in highly useful spell-likes that way.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I like this, gives more potential to fine tune to various schools against each other. At the moment there really isn't any incentive for an optimal build to include anything other than first 2 tiers of enchantment and conjuration ... or something along those lines anyway.

[Emili]

Figured the other point was brought up re tier 3+, so 1-2 free, 3-5 limited. Would let them throw in highly useful spell-likes that way.

Very much so...

[Velexia]

It could work similar to the way Shadowcaster Spells worked.

In the first tiers of the PRE, the SLA's would be limited to say, 10 per day. Then when you get the next tier, the first tier SLA's have an increase in uses per day and the 2nd tier SLA's are 10 per day. In the final tiers, the earlier SLA's are at will and the last ones are 10 per day.

[Scraap]

Hrm... Perhaps a hybrid working off the something along the lines of the action point subsystem? It's old tech, used alot of places, so no need to re-invent the wheel much. (For the sake of rapid development, I always prefer to point at existing systems.).

Tier 3 - add 10 spell-like actions
sla costs 1 spell-like action point

Tier 4- add 20 spell like actions (total 30)
sla costs 2 spell like action points

Tier 5- add 30 spell like actions (total 60)
sla costs 3 spell like action points

That would keep it similar enough to the notion of spell points to stay internally consistent, but still provide a hard useage-cap to limit things enough that each one would be allowed to bring some power to bear without breaking the game in half.

[Matuse]

Favored Soul wings cost 5 SP per use, and this is in replacement of the PnP ability which should be giving them PERMANENT COST-FREE FULL FLIGHT.

Take the piddly cost of SLAs, and enjoy them.

[Velexia]

Favored Soul wings cost 5 SP per use, and this is in replacement of the PnP ability which should be giving them PERMANENT COST-FREE FULL FLIGHT.

Take the piddly cost of SLAs, and enjoy them.

Or, stop being that "Negative Nancy" guy, and say... "Hey, don't forget about the Favored Soul Wings. We should get those for no SP cost as well."

Those "Negative Nancy" people are really annoying, and never add anything to a discussion topic.

[richieelias27]

It is difficult to tell exactly what you are asking for here. Do you mean you wish for all spell like abilities to be as if they were "at will" SLA's in addition to increasing the number to what you have proposed?

If so - just taking Air savant there is no reason to ever cast anything outside of your SLA's, thus never expending even one spell point.

I believe what they are going for with the PRE's is to add a minor/mediocre power/flavor boost to each base class, not a significant power gain (though there can be no argument that some PRE's add much more power to the base class than others), and certainly not for them to be a crutch that players rely on. Zero cost SLA's would certainly be that crutch.

Most likely a zero cost SLA would have to have a per day/per rest use limit as per normal D&D rules (which most SLA's get lumped into: per day usage). It seems to me that they are also trying to avoid per rest limits given their addition of regenerating uses of many per day abilities currently in-game.

Anyway, to sum it up, a per day limit wouldnt really be all that different from the current much reduced cost + free metamagics. Either way it saves a certain amount of SP. A zero cost unlimited per day SLA formula however, would absolutely be overpowered. At that point you'd be a Warlock x10.

[Shade]

Yea they should be called "free meta spells, (sorta, at the cost of having **** cooldowns and broken targetting.)" ..

I mean look at freakin fireball after the nerf..

Fireball regular: 15 sp, 2second cooldown.. and you can actually aim it!
SLA Fireball: 10 sp, 6secon cooldown. NON AIMABLE TERRIBLE SPELL.

pfft. Freaking regular fireballs better.

such a poorly thought out nerf.