Remove EoP, Make SLAs free.

[Suthran]

Not sure if this belongs on Lamannia or Suggestions, since it's a suggestion for Lamannia.

With the arguments against Echoes of Power (Most of them not against Echoes itself, but the slew of "balancing" issues Turbine apparently believes existed as a result), I think a much better system would be to reduce the level of SLAs available to Savants and Archmages, then make those SLAs completely free reiterations of the spell they imitate.

Savants would get their level 1 SLA for their tier 2 Savant, and that's it; these SLAs however would be completely free SP-wise, AND have the same cooldowns as if the sorcerer actually cast the spell.

Archmage 1 (Level 6) Gives you your primary focus, and your level 1 SLA of your primary school.
Archmage 2 (Level 12) Gives you your secondary focus, and your level 1 SLA of your secondary school.
Archmage 3 (Level 18) Gives you your greater primary focus, and your level 2 SLA of your primary school.

Again, these would be completely free SP-wise, and have the same cooldowns as if the wizard actually cast the spell.

In order to implement the above changes to Archmage, I would change the selection of Archmage from choosing just Archmage, and choosing instead say "Archmage 1 (Necromancy)"

In addition to the above changes to SLAs, the following changes to the SLAs in general would be a nice addition to the package;

Any metamagics your character has are automatically applied to your SLAs regardless of whether or not you actually have them toggled on or off.

Savants can select any level 1 ability their Prestige line enhances for their SLA (Which means Air Savants can choose Shocking Grasp or...Feather Fall!)

Archmages can select any proper spell level ability that belongs to the proper school

To implement this, I would recommend giving anyone who has SLAs an SLA spell tab, where each individual SLA has it's own tab (Evocation Archmage level 1 SLAs for instance as a tab), and then you can put any spell that meets the requirements into the tab ( I doubt being able to change SLAs would be gamechanging, especially level 2 spells at most).

The two purposes of Echoes of Power, to my knowledge, were to 1. Make low-level casters lives a bit easier; with the significant reduction in the costs of plenty of low-level spells (Which matters at low levels, when you have less metamagics) and the buff to eternal wands, that doesn't seem so necessary and 2. Give casters something to do when out of SP. These changes I believe would be significantly better since they
1. Still give casters something to do when out of SP (Except PMs, who already have plenty as is), without giving actual incentive to a magic user to burn all his SP stupidly (not that EoP was much incentive, but why give any incentive at all).
2. It would allow you to do something in those small bit encounters which aren't worth large expenditures of SP, but you don't want to feel useless
3. Make SLAs something even more unique; instead of just being discount spells, that are even bigger discounts when you have more metamagics, they truly serve a completely different purpose from spells.

[Bodic]

ok I am for the removal of EoP, but this seriously is to much.

and the thread you should/could post in that is active

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=312430

[Zorack00]

Sorry I have become hard of reading lately, but I thought I read that you wanted to remove the sp costs of SLA?

[Suthran]

Sorry I have become hard of reading lately, but I thought I read that you wanted to remove the sp costs of SLA?

That's exactly what I want;

Currently, level 2 SLAs cost 3 SP and are available to Savants at level 12, and Archmages at level 9;

I want SLAs to be free SP wise, and for Savants to get their level 1 SLAs, their only SLAs, at level 12, and for Archmages to get their level 2 SLAs at level 18.

For anyone who is conservative with their SP, or who is able to pretty much perfectly estimate how many spells they can burn in the space between 1 rest shrine and the next, there isn't much of a difference between 3 sp SLAs and free SLAs.

As for the ability to use your SLAs when out of SP this way, well, that's what Turbine wanted with EoP to begin with, and on live all you have to do is use an SP pot or hit your mana clickies a couple times once you run out of SP and just use your SLAs at that point, and you can pretty much go through the rest of the dungeon like that with your SLAs.

I don't think asking for free level 2 SLAs for Archmages falls into the realm of ridiculous any more than Assassins' free vorpal or Arcane Archers' Slaying Arrows; and the Cleric's Radiant Servant Aura well-outshines any level 2 SLA;

The only other benefit I'm asking Archmages get for their Tier 3 Prestige is +1 DC to 1 school of magic. (Whereas PMs can get +2 to Enchantment DCs for their vampire form (As is on Test), at level 12, while getting plenty of other benefits.)

And, at no point is an Archmage running around using level 2 SLAs going to be overpowering the melees; by reducing the levels of SLAs available to Savants and Archmages, they will actually have to focus more on their more powerful actual SP burning options; the SLAs will serve as more of a complement, than as the primary focus of an Archmage.

[Geraldicus]

How many people seriously think the developers are going to do away with echoes of power at this point? I know many people have written that this shouldn't be implemented but criticism often makes people more determined to do something rather than less so. Furthermore, I would guess that a lot of players who don't do Lammania might want to at least try how it works for themselves. I know I would.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Your suggestion would truly make Savants useless.
Their redeeming feature right now (and what makes them really good) is the 3 SLAs. Since that gives them sustained DPS, as well as quite a lot more of burst DPS.

Only giving them Burning hands (useless), shocking grasp (useless), acid spray (useless) and niacs (decent). Would result in the PRE being very, very bad. Since the +max caster level is bugged, and the - to the other element.

Leave it as it is. But feel free to remove the EoP anyways.


/IMO

[Velexia]

This would only make too much sense.

*Puts on George Carlin voice.*

If they cost spell points, they aren't spell-like abilities, they're spells!

[steelblueskies]

This would only make too much sense.

*Puts on George Carlin voice.*

If they cost spell points, they aren't spell-like abilities, they're spells!

suggests you check with the srd20 for example before proclaiming that. it's rather hard to do voices properly with foot in mouth.

from the archmage listing for example:
Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm

given sp or spell points are an alternative ruleset to spell slots, as they are easier to scale for altered encounter density, no, cost in sp isn't the defining point.
the sla's we get do not take a spell slot. are not generally selectable, pull from sp pool instead of having use restriction based on preparation level, work in antimagic fields, and more. so they aren't quite spell like abilities, and aren't quite spells, and aren't quite quite class abilities. they are in many ways more like duckbill platypuses, then the other things i listed.

as to rendering them in the fashion the thread starter indicated. no. just no. no drawn out convoluted wall of reasoning and rationale for you. my first thought was hopefully noone will dignify this with a response. they have, and now i have.
if you cannot count the ways this would be broken, or valueless comparatively, then you either lack sufficient digits to count on, or are not trying.

[Velexia]

suggests you check with the srd20 for example before proclaiming that. it's rather hard to do voices properly with foot in mouth.

from the archmage listing for example:
Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm

given sp or spell points are an alternative ruleset to spell slots, as they are easier to scale for altered encounter density, no, cost in sp isn't the defining point.
the sla's we get do not take a spell slot. are not generally selectable, pull from sp pool instead of having use restriction based on preparation level, work in antimagic fields, and more. so they aren't quite spell like abilities, and aren't quite spells, and aren't quite quite class abilities. they are in many ways more like duckbill platypuses, then the other things i listed.

as to rendering them in the fashion the thread starter indicated. no. just no. no drawn out convoluted wall of reasoning and rationale for you. my first thought was hopefully noone will dignify this with a response. they have, and now i have.
if you cannot count the ways this would be broken, or valueless comparatively, then you either lack sufficient digits to count on, or are not trying.

You put your foot in your own mouth, actually. Let me know how it tastes.

Spell Slot to Spell Point Conversion (in DDO): (Example, pertinent part in green)

Abjuration I - Shield

• Usage: Active

• Cost: 1 action points

• Progression: 19 action points

• Requires All of: Archmage I, Spell Focus: Abjuration

• Available to Wizard class level 6

• You have committed the spell Shield permanently to memory as a spell-like ability. Using this ability costs you 1 spell point. Purchasing this enhancement will reduce your maximum spell point total by 25. Has 6 seconds cooldown.