Make new offensive spells a priority.

[Junts]

In... Kobold Assault? At least I gave a locational reference for my testing, two in fact, where were you?

And "Casters with DCs like mine"? Is that a jab? Because last I checked, that was with Max Charisma, Levelups, Enhancements, a +3 Tome, +2 Exceptional, and +2 Yugo, not to mention SF:Evo and GSF:Evo. This is a toon with some miles on it that couldn't land jack. A Sorc with less mileage on it isn't going to fare any better, rather worse. I don't profess to be anywhere near the best in the game, but the SLAs shouldn't be cooked up with the 0.005% of the DDO population that does 3x all Caster TRs in mind.

I also like how you focus on the Amrath part, and not the part where I make mention that I also tried in EV1 with like results.

I tested in the two places I solo most often: epic chrono and epic into the deep. Those are the places I'm most interested in my solo performance in, since the primary purpose of my caster's soloing is completing claw and abishai sets (or getting scrolls that trade for completing said sets). I chose to stick with the mob I'm most familiar with in order to make it easier to adjust to the changes in both my character and in the monster saving throws themselves. This evades the risk of overreacting becuase you are unfamiliar with the monsters you end up testing against like you've done.

And no, I'm just saying that the dcs you cited are extremely typical numbers for pre-TR-era casters. If you have two sf in Evocation, you should easily be surpassing the 37 dc barrier with what you lay out. My caster is a 36 with 1 pl sorc and 1 pl wizard, but again, Amrath is simply a place of extremely, extremely high saving throws on every monster, especially its explorer zone. You'd be better off testing in a quest (like sins) or in some epic content somewhere (go zap scorps in claw or something). Amrath exp zone mobs have like +30 in every single saving throw, it is absurdly high. Spells do not land on them. Even the best casters don't land on them. You can't test efficacy there.

I'm also bearing in mind that in general casters are gonna be performing worse on Lamannia than on live. For example, I'm down 2 dcs because I forgot to restock Yugoloth pots before transferring (and favor unlocks don't transfer) and because there's no +2 ship buff. 4 charisma is a pretty significant thing, and i can tell you my caster doesn't cast spells very often without one or both of those two things present. The difference between 38-40 cha and 44 cha is significant even on live, and trying to compare yourself on Lamannia to your live variant that's actually running a much higher effective statistic is a great way to overemphasize the saving throw changes made to epic and/or the efficiency of spells. Many casters will be having a very hard time carrying all 3-4 charisma enhancements as they might have previously as well, which might also impact their charisma bracket. One of my testing builds was down another cha bracket from the live version because of those AP problems, and 38 cha and 44 cha sorcerors barely even play the same game.

Also keep in mind there are a wide range of abilities that give monsters effective or direct penalties to saving throws. In addition to the will save debuffs that have be en mentioned in release notes, here are some examples:

Waves of exhaustion on a large mob group is -3 to all their reflex.

Any monster that is dancing from irresistable or otto's dancing sphere recieves -10 reflex save.

Solid fog now has a saveless debuff to reflex saves, the exact magnitude of which I do not know.

Helpless foes also get a penalty to effective reflex save, which means that targets hit by mass hold monster not only take 50% more damage but will fail a lot more saving throws as well. In fact, helpless creatures and players cannot evade or improved evade, so you can hold an evasion monster to make it vulnerable to nuking with your reflex spells. Even if it rolls a 20, it will still take half damage. Even on live I routinely hold archer mobs before pelting them with fireballs to ensure that they will take full damage from every casting.

You can utilize these abilities to force monster reflex saves down to where your reflex-dependent abilities (whether they be slas or simply because you are an air savant) are more, or in many cases nearly completely reliable. After throwing a dancing sphere down, I was able to easily powernuke through significant clumps of mobs with my aoe reflex abilities. If my otto's spheres had actually been cast at my real live enchantment dc of 39 instead of a 36, I suspect that my life would have been significantly improved over what it's presently like on live. With a spell focus: evoc and the passive sorceror past life, I should have a 40-41 evocation dc on live, and will probably not even need the CC other than it's important role in stopping incoming damage while I'm killing 20 fish and scrags at the same time. Any damage bonuses (especially the ones from holds) will just be gravy.

[TheDearLeader]

*snip*

Your basis for example of efficacy is using a 36-point "Legend" build as the basis for "the SLAs should be fine", and you are wondering why I'm in disagreement?

You don't like the Battlefield Explorer for testing? Sure, great. Maybe after the event later on today, I'll go and run myself through another area.

Non-Human Sorcs have 7 feats. I'm assuming here that yours are:
Empower
Maximize
Heighten
SF:Evo (you list it)
PL:Wizard (again, listed)
??
??

You cite a 39 Enchantment DC, so maybe SF:Enchantment, and Toughness?

I'm asking about these last two feats because you also mention WoE, Dancing Ball, Mass Hold, Otto's Irresistible, and other general "debuffs" that will bring their Reflex Saves down. Except.. all these require Spell Penetration checks.

Lets go ahead and assume we're going to fail on Drow in Epic. I've personally went and clocked them in Sentinels @ 46 SR. So, even with a +30 to Spell Pen, that's not worth a caster's time.

That leaves us with other high-SR mobs such as Devils. Epic Chrono, Epic Devil Assault, Amrath.

First-Life Sorcerers won't have the innate boost to Evocation DCs, the innate boost to Spell Penetration, the Spell Pen/Spell Focus gear, Tomes or any other of the gear that makes having this combination of High DCs *and* competitive Spell Penetration possible on your caster.

This goes back to the point I was trying to make: The SLAs, nor the PrEs, should be designed in such a manner that they are "gimp" just because they haven't done multiple Past Lives and grinded gear to make it possible.

You think the SLAs will work great for your Sorcerer: great. Frankly, I think anything Turbine tosses at people with 10+ Capped, Multi-TR toons will be manageable.

As it is, a First-Life Savant is going to see a slight increase in a single element's single-target damage. But, for this, they are going to lose out on another element entirely, and have to choose between Evocation DCs, Spell Penetration, having multiple damage types, and maintaining effective crowd control.

Let me present it from another angle:
I can go to your guide, and build a TWF Khopesh Drow KotC, today, with minimal gear assistance from my alts. First life, 28-point because he's Drow.
He can get to level 16-20 content, and still be capable melee DPS. He swings his sword, it will cause damage. Holy Sword, some minimal DT grind, 20 Taps for Minos and he's good.

Knight of the Chalice is a good PrE for this, I think. He's not *max* damage right off the bat, but the PrE supports the class's natural capabilities so well, and performs well in current content, to the point that with adequate investment, a first-life toon can still be an asset to the team. And, through gearing the toon up, he would only continue to become better and contribute more.

Savant @ levels 16-20 as it stands, right now, only looks good for the "Elite" crowd. I can see Savants becoming the new "Pale Master", which was when it came out a PrE met with ridicule.

Roll up a 32-Point level 20 toon in the character planner. Give it a Spell Pen VII Item, a +6 Charisma ring, and Evocation Bracers. No raid loot, no Shroud loot, no Epic gear, no tomes, *nothing*. Make it, purely with Ability Scores, Feats, and Enhancements, capable of meeting reasonable Evocation, Conjuration, Enchantment DCs, as well as Spell Pen, all enough to actually make the SLAs perform as you expect them to on your multi-TR toon.

"They will work because my caster is in the top 5 percentile" is a poor argument. Considering this is the first batch of Sorc PrEs, I really don't think they should be designed/tested with multi-TR toons in mind.

[Geonis]

We are following the folks crunching the numbers right now with much interest.

So you read the below, where on an Ice Savant, while mana dumping, will do a whopping ~916.4 DPS for a whole minute? The roughly equivalent of 2 Barbs, and out of mana for the entire rest of the quest? You guys want to hamstring Sorcs some more? The whole assumption they MUST be DPS casters has already hosed them as a play choice.

60 second timeline :
Ear dweller: 1
Curse: 2, 32 - 10 sp total
Ice storm: 3, 33 - 138 sp
1-Biting cold (10 sec cooldown): 4, 14, 25, 36, 46, 56 - 384 sp
2-Frost lance (8 sec cooldown): 5, 13, 21, 29, 37, 45, 53 - 42 sp
3-Ottilukes (6 sec cooldown): 6, 12, 18, 24, 30, 38, 44, 50, 57 - 711 sp
4-Polar ray (4 sec cooldown): 7, 11, 15, 19, 23, 27, 31, 35, 39, 43, 47, 51, 55, 59 - 756sp
5-Cone (5 sec cooldown): 8, 16, 22, 28, 40, 48, 54 - 553 sp
6-Niac (4 sec cooldown): 9, 17, 26, 34, 41, 49, 60 - 14 sp
7-Horrid Wilting (6 sec cooldown): 10, 20, 42, 52, 58 - 320 sp

total SP used: 2928 in 1 min - mana dump! This is assuming Maximize reduction tier 2 but no other metamagic-reducing capabilities. This is all calculated without Quicken spell. All spells are heightened, maximized, and empowered. Spells that the metamagics do not apply to did not have those metamagic costs calculated in total cost.

e, c, i
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
4, 3, 2, 1
4, 5, 6, 3
4, 7, 2, 5
4, 3, 1, 6
4, 5, 2, 3
4, c, i, 6
4, 1, 2, 3
4, 5, 6, 7
4, 3, 2, 1
4, 5, 6, 3
4, 7, 2, 5
4, 1, 3, 7
4, 6


eci1234567432145634725431645234ci64123456743214563 4725413746

Edit - What I find funny, is the "number crunchers" you guys have been using to justify gutting Savant Sorcs, have mostly been here for a year or two.

Edit2- Oh, and they self-admittedly never even logged into Lamma.

[Zerkul]

New elemental damage spells have rapidly become a priority as the design of the savant has unfolded. While we won’t be able to get them in for update 9, we’re aiming for our next patch. I can’t release details yet but we will be hopefully addresses issues that are making some savants less than equal in some situations. Raids/Boss encounters being a particular point of interest.

About some of the recent changes and issues…

The removal of stacking from Savant elemental curses: Raid dps testing had problems with the curses at 75% power. Balance problems.

We have an obligation to try to keep our classes balanced and maintain a certain difficulty in our boss and raid boss encounters. The stacking curse couldn’t really support those goals. As for the current situation we feel that savants can burn very bright right now in the DPS sphere, or opt for a medium to low DPS cycle at superior SP ratio depending on the situation. We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”. We are following the folks crunching the numbers right now with much interest.

Acid Savant & Spells: Not where we want them yet….

1. Melf’s acid arrow: had to be nerfed because it was a PRE, and more or less we are sticking with the philosophy level 2 spells really should only be so good. Don’t worry, scorching ray is getting grandfathered in since it was nudged out of PRE land, But as you outgrow level 1 spells, level 2 spells get outgrown too, at least as far as damage is concerned.

2. Acid Rain: was unfortunately propped to Lammania with bugs. First time its numbers were completely out of wack, then it was missing ticks. This spell should now be finally fixed and giving you 4 ticks, admittedly the first with a reflex save. This spell is intended to be a hybrid between wall of fire and delayed blast fire ball. It should do more damage an any instant AOE on average except maybe tying with meteor swarm but at superior mana ratio, and does about half the damage of a wall of fire but twice as fast. I suggest giving it one more spin, particularly since it doesn’t exclude use of other persistent AOEs.

3. Burning Blood: This spell isn’t where we want it to be either, and it’s currently on hold in a diminished state. We’ve had difficulties with it because so many monsters share it and some wacky things would happen with it. Fire and forget DOTs are dangerous. We’ll improve it soon, we just need to be sure about the monster problem so we’re being cautious. Naturally, we are aiming to effect fire savants with this change as well.

4. Acid Fog: While we appreciate the players need for speed, acid fog has a great spell point damage/ratio because of its length and got a no-save armor class debuff added to it. Because it stacks with firewall/incendiary cloud or ice storm we’re not likely to be increasing the damage on this effect. We are very leery of persistent AOE saturation because it makes content trivial when the damage reaches a certain point.

5. But really we need some new elemental damage spells: We’re working on that. Spells like Polar Ray as mentioned in this thread are in our focus right now as their lack of a save and high yield (which punch resistances) make for very reliable delivery.

PRE Cool down adjustments: PRE-spells that take meta magics are very powerful in our design philosophy because they are dirt cheap, and have always had cool downs as an off set, and in theory are meant to be fired in a cycle (all three! 1,2,3). Echoes of power has some influence on this but let’s just say we felt they needed a tune down in general given the cost reductions in other parts of the spell system. Savants got three damage based meta magic enabled spells. We feel that’s very significant tool, and if you don’t you may be one of those people who eats our game for breakfast anyway…

Finger of Death and other death effects not taking Enhancements/Set Bonuses: This is a bug. We’re looking into it.

In my humble opinion you have done some nice changes and some very bad ones in the spell system change. One thing has to be preserved though: do not forget the balance between spells: high level spells should be "stronger" than lower level ones. I ask humbly to do your own maths carefully, give valid motivations to what you doing, because you're dealing with an history of 5 years of DDO (and much more of D&D) right now trying to change the spellsystem and customers have open eyes, especially on this delicate matter. Hope i explained myself well enough.

[Shade]

[B] We are following the folks crunching the numbers right now with much interest.

Really wish you guys could just do the numbers yourself, and test these things to be balanced in real scenario, rather then relying on a couple players who will make mistakes, and will be biased towards what they like to play the most.

Your initial design for the curses was not overpowered.

What some spreadsheet says about what a player can do, NEVER represents what would really happen. You set a sub 10 seconds window to re-apply the curses to make them stack. THAT was a difficult enough deteran to make them not overpowered, no matter what the spreadsheet said.

Things that are difficult to do, should be powerful. And won't break the class balance.

But lets say maybe it would a bit.

Did you really go so incredibly far off course with the intial design that a nerf of over 500% (from 75% to 15%) was justified? Are you truely admiting your initial ideas were THAT far off?

Or is such extreme measures and nerfs just the turbine way?

Why can't we do things incrementally? Say drop the curses down from 75% to 40%, then if that feels like too much, then go to 15%?
Same for burnign blood, why such huge and as you admit - too far - changes all at once, when you do multiple patches that could be smaller and more easily hit the target.

[Noelemahc]

We have an obligation to try to keep our classes balanced and maintain a certain difficulty in our boss and raid boss encounters. The stacking curse couldn’t really support those goals. As for the current situation we feel that savants can burn very bright right now in the DPS sphere, or opt for a medium to low DPS cycle at superior SP ratio depending on the situation. We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”. We are following the folks crunching the numbers right now with much interest.

I can agree the Savants were over the top when first came out. However, something to consider is that it takes your entire spell point bar to do a lot of damage. While that may be more damage than melee in that minute or so it takes to deplete your bar, you are significantly less damage afterward than a melee. Melee are high damage indefinitely. Sorcerers are high damage for a very small period of time.

As far as the people crunching numbers, i.e. the people who posted their dps chart for savants: they are wrong. Those numbers involve base damage numbers that are incorrect, and spell cycles/cast times that are impossible along with using gear usage time that is completely unaccounted for. They also involve having multiple people there to boost your damage as much as possible from the start, and the most absolute extreme edge case scenarios. The damage was greatly exaggerated. If anything, you guys should be doing your own internal numbers and not listening to the ones posted by biased people on the forum.

[Noelemahc]

Acid Savant & Spells: Not where we want them yet….

1. Melf’s acid arrow: had to be nerfed because it was a PRE, and more or less we are sticking with the philosophy level 2 spells really should only be so good. Don’t worry, scorching ray is getting grandfathered in since it was nudged out of PRE land, But as you outgrow level 1 spells, level 2 spells get outgrown too, at least as far as damage is concerned.

Also going back to this point. Why is Wall of Fire equal to Incendiary Cloud now, but Wall of Fire is a level 4 spell, and Incendiary Cloud is a level 8 spell? I honestly thought the 4d6 cloud was fine as it was, leaving the duration intact. Why not revert it back to 4d6, and give it same duration as the other cloud effects? It's a level 8 spell, it should be more significant than a level 4 spell but it's not. Even with the nerf Wall of Fire is still superior than Incendiary Cloud. I agree with the outgrowing of spells very much. I don't agree when you can't outgrow Wall of Fire because the higher level option is still inferior.

[nicro]

Are we going to see new offensive divine spells in the future?

[Zerkul]

Also going back to this point. Why is Wall of Fire equal to Incendiary Cloud now, but Wall of Fire is a level 4 spell, and Incendiary Cloud is a level 8 spell? I honestly thought the 4d6 cloud was fine as it was, leaving the duration intact. Why not revert it back to 4d6, and give it same duration as the other cloud effects? It's a level 8 spell, it should be more significant than a level 4 spell but it's not. Even with the nerf Wall of Fire is still superior than Incendiary Cloud. I agree with the outgrowing of spells very much. I don't agree when you can't outgrow Wall of Fire because the higher level option is still inferior.

Agree.

[Arctigis]

Agree.

I thought WoF was 2d6 + 15 (max) with a reflex save when entering the wall. I haven't played this out
but I assume it affects kiting quite badly.

Incendiary cloud is 2d4 + 20 (max) with no save. Reflex save is for the blindess effect which lasts 4d6
seconds.

I agree though, Incendiary Cloud still looks rubbish.

[Hikup]

New elemental damage spells have rapidly become a priority as the design of the savant has unfolded. While we won’t be able to get them in for update 9, we’re aiming for our next patch. I can’t release details yet but we will be hopefully addresses issues that are making some savants less than equal in some situations. Raids/Boss encounters being a particular point of interest.

About some of the recent changes and issues…

The removal of stacking from Savant elemental curses: Raid dps testing had problems with the curses at 75% power. Balance problems.

We have an obligation to try to keep our classes balanced and maintain a certain difficulty in our boss and raid boss encounters. The stacking curse couldn’t really support those goals. As for the current situation we feel that savants can burn very bright right now in the DPS sphere, or opt for a medium to low DPS cycle at superior SP ratio depending on the situation. We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”. We are following the folks crunching the numbers right now with much interest.

Acid Savant & Spells: Not where we want them yet….

1. Melf’s acid arrow: had to be nerfed because it was a PRE, and more or less we are sticking with the philosophy level 2 spells really should only be so good. Don’t worry, scorching ray is getting grandfathered in since it was nudged out of PRE land, But as you outgrow level 1 spells, level 2 spells get outgrown too, at least as far as damage is concerned.

2. Acid Rain: was unfortunately propped to Lammania with bugs. First time its numbers were completely out of wack, then it was missing ticks. This spell should now be finally fixed and giving you 4 ticks, admittedly the first with a reflex save. This spell is intended to be a hybrid between wall of fire and delayed blast fire ball. It should do more damage an any instant AOE on average except maybe tying with meteor swarm but at superior mana ratio, and does about half the damage of a wall of fire but twice as fast. I suggest giving it one more spin, particularly since it doesn’t exclude use of other persistent AOEs.

3. Burning Blood: This spell isn’t where we want it to be either, and it’s currently on hold in a diminished state. We’ve had difficulties with it because so many monsters share it and some wacky things would happen with it. Fire and forget DOTs are dangerous. We’ll improve it soon, we just need to be sure about the monster problem so we’re being cautious. Naturally, we are aiming to effect fire savants with this change as well.

4. Acid Fog: While we appreciate the players need for speed, acid fog has a great spell point damage/ratio because of its length and got a no-save armor class debuff added to it. Because it stacks with firewall/incendiary cloud or ice storm we’re not likely to be increasing the damage on this effect. We are very leery of persistent AOE saturation because it makes content trivial when the damage reaches a certain point.

5. But really we need some new elemental damage spells: We’re working on that. Spells like Polar Ray as mentioned in this thread are in our focus right now as their lack of a save and high yield (which punch resistances) make for very reliable delivery.

PRE Cool down adjustments: PRE-spells that take meta magics are very powerful in our design philosophy because they are dirt cheap, and have always had cool downs as an off set, and in theory are meant to be fired in a cycle (all three! 1,2,3). Echoes of power has some influence on this but let’s just say we felt they needed a tune down in general given the cost reductions in other parts of the spell system. Savants got three damage based meta magic enabled spells. We feel that’s very significant tool, and if you don’t you may be one of those people who eats our game for breakfast anyway…

Finger of Death and other death effects not taking Enhancements/Set Bonuses: This is a bug. We’re looking into it.

So, the player base with no access to any actual code is determining the DPS done by spells? that sounds lazy. The fact that these changes are rolling out, just about everyone will need to LR/GR/TR to remain viable. When those sales peak I'm guessing we'll get to see the new spells right? Just in time to boost more sales. . .

[azrael4h]

Are we going to see new offensive divine spells in the future?

We got our one divine spell this year (even if it was a copy-paste of new arcane spells with light damage). That's all we get.

[Lycurgus]

I seem to recall a comment in the release notes along the lines that it's desirable for players to make use of many under-utilized spells because of the nifty graphics associated with them.

From this I conclude arcanes don't need no stinking new spells, they already don't use the ones they have.

[sephiroth1084]

I will contend that Amrath is not an awful testing ground - it is a good testing ground, because it is what we do. It is content we play at level 18, when we'd have all three spells to cycle through. I expect it to land less - not to never land. Especially on a toon that has more Charisma/Gear than a starting Sorcerer would.

I wouldn't go to Amrath to test any DC for any of my casters, not if I wanted to see how they would function in general. I can run through Sins solo on my wizard and with 2 or 3 Wails usually clear an entire group of devils and orthons, whereas in the explorer zone solo, I'm typically casting 1 or 2 Wails and 1-4 FoD to clear a smaller group of supposedly weaker creatures. The stuff out there has their saves jacked up by more than 4 points. It's a poor testing ground.

I also went and tested the same SLAs in EV1, including the bugbears just past Angog the Champion, which are by far some of the weakest mobs in Epics (a Crit Polar Ray 1-Shotted one of them). They were equally ineffective against them, or any other mobs in that quest.

That's a worthwhile test and should be noted, with more weight, than the Amrath tests.

SLAs
Air
Shocking Grasp, Electric Loop, Lightning Bolt Touch, save + minor CC effect, chance at double strike + save for half semi-AoE
Earth
Acid Spray, Melf's, Acid Blast Identical to Burning Hands/Snowball Swarm, no save DoT, save for half AoE
Fire
Burning Hands, Scorch, Fireball same issues you had with Snowball, no clue how this one works, save for half AoE

Including Water Savant, 10/12 of the SLAs have saves, 9/12 of them Reflex Saves, and therefore are Evade-able. 1 of the 2 No-save SLAs is Touch only.

So, while you may think that Water Savant is most powerful, and therefore should have worst SLAs, I see four different Savant types, and *1* spell of any use, Melf's Acid Arrow. Because regardless of element, the fact remains that when using DC-based Casting, a Wizard wins out.

There is a difference between the save for half everyone else has and the save for 0 of Niac's.

And, I'm not really sure what your complaint is. Aren't the rest of your real spells also getting evaded or showing half damage all the time then? They should have the same DCs. Polar Ray has no save, but all of the Lightning Spells do, all of the non-persistent Fire spells do and and the few non-persistent Acid spells do. Are you seeing half damage or 0s with your Cone of Cold? Your Otiluke's?

[Angelus_dead]

As for the current situation we feel that savants can burn very bright right now in the DPS sphere, or opt for a medium to low DPS cycle at superior SP ratio depending on the situation.

A major obstacle towards that goal is the UI for toggling metamagic. Depending on which spell/SLA you're using, to have Max/Emp metamagic active might either increase or decrease your hp/sp ratio. In theory if a player could instantly change metamagics (such as using presets on the icons) then they'd be able to make that choice directly. Instead they can't choose cleanly, because the toggling delay would interfere with the throughput.

3. Burning Blood: This spell isn’t where we want it to be either, and it’s currently on hold in a diminished state. We’ve had difficulties with it because so many monsters share it and some wacky things would happen with it. Fire and forget DOTs are dangerous. We’ll improve it soon

Remember that the D&D source spell Burning Blood has an important speed debuff portion, aside from simply hitpoint damage. You could use a debuff aspect to compensate for suboptimal DPS.

[Angelus_dead]

Are we going to see new offensive divine spells in the future?

I would instead ask if existing divine offensive spells (Inflict + Harm) will be improved to become reasonable choices for offensive casting.

[TheDearLeader]

And, I'm not really sure what your complaint is. Aren't the rest of your real spells also getting evaded or showing half damage all the time then? They should have the same DCs. Polar Ray has no save, but all of the Lightning Spells do, all of the non-persistent Fire spells do and and the few non-persistent Acid spells do. Are you seeing half damage or 0s with your Cone of Cold? Your Otiluke's?

Yes, in fact, I am.

Niac's, being Conjuration, is 2 DC lower than the Evocation-based spells. But yeah, in playing with the Cone of Cold/Otiluke's, I like the new casting speed and AoE, respectively, but I see mobs save more often than not.

Whatever - when casting from my SP bar, I can use spells that don't have saves, such as Niac's Biting Cold, and Polar Ray.

But if the "intent" of the SLAs was for them to be rotated out 1,2,3 style and actually deal appreciable (if any) damage, then I think one of the four suggestions I put in my original post should be considered to make them a bit harder to save on.

[Junts]

Your basis for example of efficacy is using a 36-point "Legend" build as the basis for "the SLAs should be fine", and you are wondering why I'm in disagreement?

You don't like the Battlefield Explorer for testing? Sure, great. Maybe after the event later on today, I'll go and run myself through another area.

Non-Human Sorcs have 7 feats. I'm assuming here that yours are:
Empower
Maximize
Heighten
SF:Evo (you list it)
PL:Wizard (again, listed)
??
??

You cite a 39 Enchantment DC, so maybe SF:Enchantment, and Toughness?

I'm asking about these last two feats because you also mention WoE, Dancing Ball, Mass Hold, Otto's Irresistible, and other general "debuffs" that will bring their Reflex Saves down. Except.. all these require Spell Penetration checks.

Lets go ahead and assume we're going to fail on Drow in Epic. I've personally went and clocked them in Sentinels @ 46 SR. So, even with a +30 to Spell Pen, that's not worth a caster's time.

That leaves us with other high-SR mobs such as Devils. Epic Chrono, Epic Devil Assault, Amrath.

First-Life Sorcerers won't have the innate boost to Evocation DCs, the innate boost to Spell Penetration, the Spell Pen/Spell Focus gear, Tomes or any other of the gear that makes having this combination of High DCs *and* competitive Spell Penetration possible on your caster.

This goes back to the point I was trying to make: The SLAs, nor the PrEs, should be designed in such a manner that they are "gimp" just because they haven't done multiple Past Lives and grinded gear to make it possible.

You think the SLAs will work great for your Sorcerer: great. Frankly, I think anything Turbine tosses at people with 10+ Capped, Multi-TR toons will be manageable.

As it is, a First-Life Savant is going to see a slight increase in a single element's single-target damage. But, for this, they are going to lose out on another element entirely, and have to choose between Evocation DCs, Spell Penetration, having multiple damage types, and maintaining effective crowd control.

Let me present it from another angle:
I can go to your guide, and build a TWF Khopesh Drow KotC, today, with minimal gear assistance from my alts. First life, 28-point because he's Drow.
He can get to level 16-20 content, and still be capable melee DPS. He swings his sword, it will cause damage. Holy Sword, some minimal DT grind, 20 Taps for Minos and he's good.

Knight of the Chalice is a good PrE for this, I think. He's not *max* damage right off the bat, but the PrE supports the class's natural capabilities so well, and performs well in current content, to the point that with adequate investment, a first-life toon can still be an asset to the team. And, through gearing the toon up, he would only continue to become better and contribute more.

Savant @ levels 16-20 as it stands, right now, only looks good for the "Elite" crowd. I can see Savants becoming the new "Pale Master", which was when it came out a PrE met with ridicule.

Roll up a 32-Point level 20 toon in the character planner. Give it a Spell Pen VII Item, a +6 Charisma ring, and Evocation Bracers. No raid loot, no Shroud loot, no Epic gear, no tomes, *nothing*. Make it, purely with Ability Scores, Feats, and Enhancements, capable of meeting reasonable Evocation, Conjuration, Enchantment DCs, as well as Spell Pen, all enough to actually make the SLAs perform as you expect them to on your multi-TR toon.

"They will work because my caster is in the top 5 percentile" is a poor argument. Considering this is the first batch of Sorc PrEs, I really don't think they should be designed/tested with multi-TR toons in mind.

My sorc is human. Present build is toughness-extend-heighten-empower-max-spell pen-greater spell pen-arcane initiate. I do not take spell focuses normally. Savant build will drop extend for the required sf evoc.

44 cha = +17, +1 from feat, +2 from greater enchantment focus item, 10 base, 9 spell level is dc 39. This is what I play currently.

Evocation dc is up to 2 higher due to passive PL sorceror (+1 to evoc dcs) and the coming requirement of taking spell focus: evocation.

I've typically played with all 3 spell pen enhancements, but unfortunately Ill have to sacrifice here in order to afford savanthood. However, +30 spell pen instead of +32 is still adequate. I will retain both feats. Many sorcerors do not, and they are poorer characters for it.

The answer to epic drow are spells without spel lresistance checks, like web. The only people who will be bypassing their spell resistance are earth savants with flesh to stone (who could easily get up to +36 to +40 spell pen on that particular spell). Everyone else is going to answer that with saveless abilities, which DDO has many of, and assorted stuns. Remember these drow tend to have abominable fort saves.

Its true that new characters will struggle with this content. I'll point out that part of the reason that epic's being adjusted is that it is in fact way too easy for new characters to jump in and do anything. The other night, we brought a guildie's joke warforged sorceror on a chrono with us. He refuses to play the character because it's geared badly and he doesn't want to spend the time to make it worthwhile. He was convinced that his 32 dc enchantment would be utterly worthless during the run.

It turned out that outside of abishai and the green devils, he was able to easily land mass holds and/or flesh to stones on the appropriate mobs. he was shocked. His dc was really, really bad - 32 involves no items, no feats, and a pretty horrific charisma. Mobs getting +4 will mean that dcs like you're describing (36) will still get his results. And those results are fine, really, if you're not that well equipped.

Several of the abilities I listed also don't even have saving throws, much less spell pen checks. Solid fog, for example, is a critical nuking debuff now if your dc is poor, and the major/minor will debuffs can be used to make your will save spells more reliable.

[TheDearLeader]

My sorc is human. Present build is toughness-extend-heighten-empower-max-spell pen-greater spell pen-arcane initiate. I do not take spell focuses normally. Savant build will drop extend for the required sf evoc.

44 cha = +17, +1 from feat, +2 from greater enchantment focus item, 10 base, 9 spell level is dc 39. This is what I play currently.

Evocation dc is up to 2 higher due to passive PL sorceror (+1 to evoc dcs) and the coming requirement of taking spell focus: evocation.

I've typically played with all 3 spell pen enhancements, but unfortunately Ill have to sacrifice here in order to afford savanthood. However, +30 spell pen instead of +32 is still adequate. I will retain both feats. Many sorcerors do not, and they are poorer characters for it.

The answer to epic drow are spells without spel lresistance checks, like web. The only people who will be bypassing their spell resistance are earth savants with flesh to stone (who could easily get up to +36 to +40 spell pen on that particular spell). Everyone else is going to answer that with saveless abilities, which DDO has many of, and assorted stuns. Remember these drow tend to have abominable fort saves.

Its true that new characters will struggle with this content. I'll point out that part of the reason that epic's being adjusted is that it is in fact way too easy for new characters to jump in and do anything. The other night, we brought a guildie's joke warforged sorceror on a chrono with us. He refuses to play the character because it's geared badly and he doesn't want to spend the time to make it worthwhile. He was convinced that his 32 dc enchantment would be utterly worthless during the run.

It turned out that outside of abishai and the green devils, he was able to easily land mass holds and/or flesh to stones on the appropriate mobs. he was shocked. His dc was really, really bad - 32 involves no items, no feats, and a pretty horrific charisma. Mobs getting +4 will mean that dcs like you're describing (36) will still get his results. And those results are fine, really, if you're not that well equipped.

Several of the abilities I listed also don't even have saving throws, much less spell pen checks. Solid fog, for example, is a critical nuking debuff now if your dc is poor, and the major/minor will debuffs can be used to make your will save spells more reliable.

First of all, comparing Will Saves in U8 to Reflex Saves in U9. Apples, meet orange. Real classy.

Second, PL:Arcane Initiate and PL:Wizard - you do realize that the two of these are equivalent to 9 feats, right? 8x Spell Focus and Spell Penetration?
Even with the best gear, a Sorcerer without a Wizard TR will not be seeing the competitive DCs to combine spells from multiple schools, as well as appropriate amount of Spell Penetration for mobs currently in game, to make Savant and their related SLAs "worth it".
Don't get me started on how difficult sustaining a 44 Charisma on a non-Drow would be - really, start it like at a 38. Even that's 18 +5 Levelup +4 Enhancement +2 Tome +6 Item = 35 Charisma, so still three higher than someone will likely see *prior* to Epic Content. Epic Content should be difficult, yes - it should not create such a gap that it is literally impossible for a specific class/PrE to contribute.

Solid Fog is a 4th level spell - good luck for any Sorc fitting that in.

Besides, all you're showing by tossing out all these spells (Solid Fog, Mass Hold, WoE Web, Single-Target Dance, etc.) is that to compensate for the weakness of these "cheap" SLAs, we have to use spells from our SP pool in order to make them actually.. work. You're making the cheap SLAs not cheap to see results.

Your words may convince forumites that haven't been there to playtest it. But I have: and 1st Life Sorcs/TR Sorcs without Past Lives in Wizard/FvS are going to be weak at their only PrEs.

[steelblueskies]

My sorc is human. Present build is toughness-extend-heighten-empower-max-spell pen-greater spell pen-arcane initiate. I do not take spell focuses normally. Savant build will drop extend for the required sf evoc.

44 cha = +17, +1 from feat, +2 from greater enchantment focus item, 10 base, 9 spell level is dc 39. This is what I play currently.

Evocation dc is up to 2 higher due to passive PL sorceror (+1 to evoc dcs) and the coming requirement of taking spell focus: evocation.

I've typically played with all 3 spell pen enhancements, but unfortunately Ill have to sacrifice here in order to afford savanthood. However, +30 spell pen instead of +32 is still adequate. I will retain both feats. Many sorcerors do not, and they are poorer characters for it.

The answer to epic drow are spells without spel lresistance checks, like web. The only people who will be bypassing their spell resistance are earth savants with flesh to stone (who could easily get up to +36 to +40 spell pen on that particular spell). Everyone else is going to answer that with saveless abilities, which DDO has many of, and assorted stuns. Remember these drow tend to have abominable fort saves.

Its true that new characters will struggle with this content. I'll point out that part of the reason that epic's being adjusted is that it is in fact way too easy for new characters to jump in and do anything. The other night, we brought a guildie's joke warforged sorceror on a chrono with us. He refuses to play the character because it's geared badly and he doesn't want to spend the time to make it worthwhile. He was convinced that his 32 dc enchantment would be utterly worthless during the run.

It turned out that outside of abishai and the green devils, he was able to easily land mass holds and/or flesh to stones on the appropriate mobs. he was shocked. His dc was really, really bad - 32 involves no items, no feats, and a pretty horrific charisma. Mobs getting +4 will mean that dcs like you're describing (36) will still get his results. And those results are fine, really, if you're not that well equipped.

Several of the abilities I listed also don't even have saving throws, much less spell pen checks. Solid fog, for example, is a critical nuking debuff now if your dc is poor, and the major/minor will debuffs can be used to make your will save spells more reliable.

two things. evocation from sorc plf. CONJURATION from cleric plf.
why does it seem everyone forgets the cleric plf?
nonetheless requiring 3 tr's for a school to be viable comparatively is a wee on the harsh side, but then the same is true for spell pen.

3 conjuration = 3 cleric plfs
3 evocation = 3 sorc plf
1 all = wiz bought plf
6 spell pen = 3 wiz plf
3 spell pen = 3 fvs plf
120 sp equating to an improved mental toughness = 6 plfs split between fvs and sorc. or bought sorc plf(kind of wish this could stand in for mental toughness in the am prereqs personally, simiar to the discussion on making some other plf an alternate prereq option for the savants one of the dev's said they thought would be okay)
1 enchant = bard bought plf
looking at the past life side enchant, necro get a wee bit bowled over.

then again it feels like those working at arcanes have a dislike of potentially going cleric three times. i know i do :P

grab your fvs and sorc lives, then either free two feats and 3 enhancement lines, or boost your spellpen stratospherically.

balance against past lives is kind of in the bad idea side of things.

they could even that out somewhat given the evo dc boosting feat requirement for the savants, by making a wiz bought plf another alternative to the requirement.

but i digressed. you are right on the need for an evocation focus type feat putting it ahead at most 1, at present, and wrong on the other for missing the cleric lives.
===
item 2: a sorceror with 32 dc and no problems in a chrono run.
i am assuming you were talking live, and i am inferring you were talking epic.
it's not quite the same game if you weren't on both or either point.

even so, you have to acknowledge that getting through with one arcane wielding enchantment at a 32 dc without problems was largely a factor of luck.

there is a reason the preference is for a 40 or greater dc on live in there.

also was there a bard boosting that 32? earthgrab/stun/tomb etc going on a great deal? a lot of groups place the cc duty solely on the arcane in a place like that. if the group itself is being more proactive in sharing the duty, you might have been able to pull it off as smoothly without the arcane.

====

First of all, comparing Will Saves in U8 to Reflex Saves in U9. Apples, meet orange. Real classy.

Second, PL:Arcane Initiate and PL:Wizard - you do realize that the two of these are equivalent to 9 feats, right? 8x Spell Focus and Spell Penetration?
Even with the best gear, a Sorcerer without a Wizard TR will not be seeing the competitive DCs to combine spells from multiple schools, as well as appropriate amount of Spell Penetration for mobs currently in game, to make Savant and their related SLAs "worth it".
Don't get me started on how difficult sustaining a 44 Charisma on a non-Drow would be - really, start it like at a 38. Even that's 18 +5 Levelup +4 Enhancement +2 Tome +6 Item = 35 Charisma, so still three higher than someone will likely see *prior* to Epic Content. Epic Content should be difficult, yes - it should not create such a gap that it is literally impossible for a specific class/PrE to contribute.

Solid Fog is a 4th level spell - good luck for any Sorc fitting that in.

Besides, all you're showing by tossing out all these spells (Solid Fog, Mass Hold, WoE Web, Single-Target Dance, etc.) is that to compensate for the weakness of these "cheap" SLAs, we have to use spells from our SP pool in order to make them actually.. work. You're making the cheap SLAs not cheap to see results.

Your words may convince forumites that haven't been there to playtest it. But I have: and 1st Life Sorcs/TR Sorcs without Past Lives in Wizard/FvS are going to be weak at their only PrEs.

you posted response before i was done, and so .

it actually gets a little worse in comparison. remember a sorceror should have access to a larger sp pool as well.
if the new thing is either failing casts to debuff to succeed on the next you doubled sp cost for equivalent results on equal gear levels. this would be fatal for a wizard specializing in this type of work. the induced cooldowns and cast time loss can be fatal as well.
if the new thing is casting yet another effect half as expensive as say mass hold, you just multiplied cost in sp by 1.5, and time by two instants at best, more at worst- but save the cooldown(unless you fail on the pre-debuffed attempt as well at which point cost may skyrocket further).

i noted elsewhere running through evon1 in build 1 here just a human am with natively 39dc, and a twf ranger rogue tempest type. oh yeah and a single fvs hireling. mr hezrou could tank for a bit versus epic mobs. holds worked more or less, and double damage versus held made it viable to dps considering their reduced health. what i did not note is the 50 best sp potions consumed in solo casting from both ends, and given arcane bolt and blast were the primary nukes i used.. guess i know where the rest of the 2500+ point sp pool went over and over.

but that was a first run with new changes. i can see improving efficiency by using better pairings, and less testing things out.
it just still felt on the bad side of even. i shudder to think of mucking about in echrono.