THIS is why you play a sorc or a savant

[crazydamage]

Thank god the sorc savant PRE seems balanced now.

You play an ARCANE (sorc/wiz) because you enjoy playing the most powerful class PreU9 or PostU9.

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability.
The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill).
The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc.

You play SORC because you appreciate the advantages vs a wizard
Double SP From SP items
Faster casting animations
Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard
CHA based caster class with powerful UMD
Capstone with +20% DMG

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities
Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them).
Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE.
Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC.

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

[Maegin]

First!

[Qezuzu]

We need a compilation video of sorcs rocking out general endgame stuff.

It's a great PrE but people are dooming about something they've never really played.

[Alcamez]

Thank god the sorc savant PRE seems balanced now.

You play an ARCANE (sorc/wiz) because you enjoy playing the most powerful class PreU9 or PostU9.

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability.
The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill).
The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc.

You play SORC because you appreciate the advantages vs a wizard
Double SP From SP items
Faster casting animations
Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard
CHA based caster class with powerful UMD
Capstone with +20% DMG

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities
Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them).
Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE.
Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC.

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

I am truly honest and sorry that even after reading this I do not feel any better, but I will provide you with +1 REP for trying.

[Hafeal]

That's crazy talk - you mean people might actually enjoy the changes when they hit!?? You, sir, are clearly not fit for these forums.

[Jaid314]

Thank god the sorc savant PRE seems balanced now.

You play an ARCANE (sorc/wiz) because you enjoy playing the most powerful class PreU9 or PostU9.

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability. no, that would be wizards only.
The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill). no, that would be pre-U9 when we could actually spam those
The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc. again, that would be wizard for the most part. i access teleport, greater teleport, invis, and featherfall through items. i keep ddoor around because everyone *else* makes me, not because it's such a good spell i don't have room for anything else. ditto for haste: best spell for melees, not that much better than expeditious retreat for me. jump? well, ok, fair enough. i don't have to wait until i get a level 18 belt for that, which is pretty nice. except, of course, it can be replaced eventually by a level 18 belt... and i only get more convenient access to those, not sole access to them. for example, the fighters i group with largely *also* have access to those abilities, through me.

You play SORC because you appreciate the advantages vs a wizard
Double SP From SP items which is getting less meaningful with every SP restore item that comes out and gives the same SP to either class.
Faster casting animations which is generally countered by wizards having quicken, plus 4 other feats.
Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard no, this is what i have right *now*. it is most definitely not what i will have come U9, at least not with the best spells in the game.
CHA based caster class with powerful UMD which i need primarily because i don't have reliable self-healing in the first place, and which can largely be replaced by sufficient gear. i get *easier* access to high UMD, again, this is not *exclusive* access by any means.
Capstone with +20% DMG which still generally leaves me below the DPS ability of a melee.

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities
Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them). yes, now i can *look* useful, which is almost as good as actually being useful if some of the people i've grouped with are any indication. oh goody.
Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE. which will still leave me weaker in raids then a good melee.
Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC. and all it cost me was blowing a feat on one of the most feat-starved classes in the game! oh, and also costs me the ability to cast some of the few useful spells in the game, leaving me to fill even more of my spell slots with garbage.

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

who cares? me. i care. if savant spells didn't include non-nuking spells, then you'd probably be right about not caring, because those spells are for the most part not good enough to care about. who cares about being able to penetrate SR with flesh to stone? ME. who cares about having a long-lasting cloudkill to keep the raid boss from dealing so much damage? ME. who cares about having the best persistent DPS in the game (still, after multiple nerfings) which is about the only thing that has allowed sorcerers to get through quests efficiently? ME. who cares about being able to use the second-best and third-best such spells, if i so choose, which fill in for those situations where the best one is not viable? ME.

I CARE. that's why i'm not taking a PrE that takes the least useful aspect of my class and buffs it up to the point where it is still the least useful aspect of my class.

[Alcamez]

who cares? me. i care. if savant spells didn't include non-nuking spells, then you'd probably be right about not caring, because those spells are for the most part not good enough to care about. who cares about being able to penetrate SR with flesh to stone? ME. who cares about having a long-lasting cloudkill to keep the raid boss from dealing so much damage? ME. who cares about having the best persistent DPS in the game (still, after multiple nerfings) which is about the only thing that has allowed sorcerers to get through quests efficiently? ME. who cares about being able to use the second-best and third-best such spells, if i so choose, which fill in for those situations where the best one is not viable? ME.

I CARE. that's why i'm not taking a PrE that takes the least useful aspect of my class and buffs it up to the point where it is still the least useful aspect of my class.

You know in all honest THE PRE's are nice. The simple fact is you do a spell change mixed with all of this and it seems like they increased because of decrease only to decrease the increase to leave us no better than we started off. It is almost like slight of hand or a bad magic trick. Some people are going to say wow that was awesome some are going to say umm dude I can see the rabbit in your pocket.

[Skyeson]

[QUOTE=crazydamage;3726368]Thank god the sorc savant PRE seems balanced now.
QUOTE]

I'm not sure tbh crazy (this is Ashavera btw). I'll probably still try the savant on live. But if you figure in the changes to epics and spells in u9 I suspect that my sorc will no longer have effective mass CC. That leaves only dps. My experience with my DPS in high level content is pretty underwhleming even though I've maxed out my fire/ice lines (in crits) and it really isn't very sustainable. Despite the nerfing to firewall I suspect it'll still be a go to spell because of the placing aspect of it. Now I guess I'll be competeing with melees for DPS spots in Epics and getting rejected even more...

[Peo]

I didn't read anything. Too busy staring at the +2 to enchantment save DCs via Vampire Form. Should I go Archmage for nearly free Hold Monster, or Pale Master for the +2 to the save DC?

[Jaid314]

You know in all honest THE PRE's are nice. The simple fact is you do a spell change mixed with all of this and it seems like they increased because of decrease only to decrease the increase to leave us no better than we started off. It is almost like slight of hand or a bad magic trick. Some people are going to say wow that was awesome some are going to say umm dude I can see the rabbit in your pocket.

the PrEs would be nice if they didn't cost so much, maybe. i mean, if they were going to give me knockdown immunity and wings (even if the wings aren't as good as FvS wings) actually for free, i'd be all over that. heck, i'd even gladly pay a cost comparable to what rogues pay for assassin, or monks pay for shintao, or even comparatively what fighters pay for kensei. but the comparative cost is not similar, it is in fact quite a bit more harsh. then to add in that i basically can cross flesh to stone off my spell list (no longer reliable) or something like that? meh. i'll be better off without it. if i had any choice, i would keep my current fire/ice spec instead.

[crazydamage]

who cares? me. i care. if savant spells didn't include non-nuking spells, then you'd probably be right about not caring, because those spells are for the most part not good enough to care about. who cares about being able to penetrate SR with flesh to stone? ME. who cares about having a long-lasting cloudkill to keep the raid boss from dealing so much damage? ME. who cares about having the best persistent DPS in the game (still, after multiple nerfings) which is about the only thing that has allowed sorcerers to get through quests efficiently? ME. who cares about being able to use the second-best and third-best such spells, if i so choose, which fill in for those situations where the best one is not viable? ME.

I CARE. that's why i'm not taking a PrE that takes the least useful aspect of my class and buffs it up to the point where it is still the least useful aspect of my class.

You play an ARCANE (sorc/wiz) because you enjoy playing the most powerful class PreU9 or PostU9.

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability. no, that would be wizards only.The best sorcs CC just fine as it is and the best sorcs will continue to CC acceptable even with minion debuff.
The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill). no, that would be pre-U9 when we could actually spam thoseSorcs have 1/2 the cooldown on instant death vs wizards
The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc. again, that would be wizard for the most part. i access teleport, greater teleport, invis, and featherfall through items. i keep ddoor around because everyone *else* makes me, not because it's such a good spell i don't have room for anything else. ditto for haste: best spell for melees, not that much better than expeditious retreat for me. jump? well, ok, fair enough. i don't have to wait until i get a level 18 belt for that, which is pretty nice. except, of course, it can be replaced eventually by a level 18 belt... and i only get more convenient access to those, not sole access to them. for example, the fighters i group with largely *also* have access to those abilities, through me. if you are a sorc USE SCROLLS. Your melee can never get DDoor and unlikely GT/teleport

You play SORC because you appreciate the advantages vs a wizard
Double SP From SP items which is getting less meaningful with every SP restore item that comes out and gives the same SP to either class.Extra SP is never meaningless especially 400 more SP
Faster casting animations which is generally countered by wizards having quicken, plus 4 other feats.
Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard no, this is what i have right *now*. it is most definitely not what i will have come U9, at least not with the best spells in the game.Yes their cooldowns on all spells are much less
CHA based caster class with powerful UMD which i need primarily because i don't have reliable self-healing in the first place, and which can largely be replaced by sufficient gear. i get *easier* access to high UMD, again, this is not *exclusive* access by any means.
Capstone with +20% DMG which still generally leaves me below the DPS ability of a melee.

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities
Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them). yes, now i can *look* useful, which is almost as good as actually being useful if some of the people i've grouped with are any indication. oh goody.
Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE. which will still leave me weaker in raids then a good melee.Why are you trying to replace melee. Does melee wail the portals in shroud, or stone the orthons in ToD. etc.
Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC. and all it cost me was blowing a feat on one of the most feat-starved classes in the game! oh, and also costs me the ability to cast some of the few useful spells in the game, leaving me to fill even more of my spell slots with garbage.

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

[Kabaon]

To Jaid. By the sound of it you seem to think sorcs and wizards are supposed to be on equal terms with each other, at least in DDO. In reality they aren't, but both have their own pros and cons. And the way you make it sound you want sorcs to be both a wizard and a sorc (it's doable, but I would have to think it takes a lot of planing, and hell, maybe a few tr's to pull it off)

As I see it Sorcs were always supposed to be the damage dealers in the arcane arts, more sp, higher damage with offensive spells, faster casts times and cooldowns, higher cha score so more umd (heal scrolls for example are possible in this case if your built right). Wizards can't keep up with that even with extra feats and quicken (which only speeds up cast times, not cooldowns). So with this PrE it just augments the abilities of what sorcs can already do and improves upon them, even with the nerf to the Awaken elemental weakeness curse (and I was so looking forward to that too)

Wizards on the other hand have higher cooldowns, less sp, slower cast times (unless they take quicken), little to no UMD, and our overall damage is less than a sorc, BUT wizards in DDO have the strength of higher spell pen, more feats, and higher dc's. That's what makes a wizard different from a sorc, otherwise what is the point of having two different arcanes with the same role.

And also complaining that you will never do the same damage as a melee is ludicris, but not that it isn't true, but your comparing a class that has sp, and uses spells to fight to a class that has no sp, no spells (or very few, or less spell levels overall). Apples and Oranges

[Jaid314]

@crazydamage: yes, "the best sorcs", meaning the ones who have multiple wizard TRs to free up the spell pen feats, and a bard TR so that they can have the bard active past life, plus the wizard active past life, plus they'll also need epic gear for the +7, the litany of the dead, and a +4 tome. oh, and both spell focus feats. dude, do you actually have a sorcerer? that 'best sorc' isn't going to be a savant, because to have that meaningful DC he's going to be blowing his feats on DC, *not* being a savant. furthermore, that's an absurd amount of effort to have to go through to be good at something if you want to claim it as an advantage of the class; that's got nothing to do with being a sorcerer, and everything to do with having 4 past lives.

the sorc cooldown on instakill spells is not half as much anymore. read the patch notes. 25 vs 30 seconds for AOE, 6 seconds vs 8 for single target.

melee can use scrolls just fine, and in fact many melees do. a single rogue or bard level splash will allow them to put up to 23 points in the skill to do so, and many will add two levels of rogue for evasion anyways. if your melee doesn't use scrolls, it is likely because they chosen to make an investment elsewhere, not because it's unavailable.

extra SP is not always meaningless, but it also isn't nearly as big a difference as it used to be. it is in fact quite small now, and wizards also have some very nice ways to contribute to quests without costing a lot of SP too, so it's much easier to conserve SP when you're not nuking as fast as you can.

and i would be trying to replace melee because that would be the other DPS characters, and DPS is the only thing the savant is going to be particularly awesome at.

@kabaon: it would be nice if sorcerers actually were all that much better at DPS, but they aren't. savant makes them a little better than before, but even then, still not as good as a melee. if you want a DPS, grab a geared melee and leave the savant out of it. if you want CC or instakills, grab a wizard and leave the savant out of it.

i don't want sorcs to be both sorc and wizard, i just want to be able to point to one thing and say "this is what i do, and i'm actually good at it". right now, i can CC essentially as well as a wizard can, by having my DC's nearly maxed out.

as i pointed out to crazydamage, wizards can definitely get their UMD high enough to use scrolls, they just: 1) usually don't need to because the most important advantage of self-healing is often already covered, and 2) have to work harder to get it (for the record, you don't need rogue or bard levels to UMD heal scrolls even on a dumped cha wizard, you just need to farm all the gear to use it).

wizards have slower cooldowns, it is true, but that is easily gotten around by spamming multiple spells, which they have more of to begin with and can change as needed even in the middle of a quest if there's a shrine handy.

and no, complaining that i won't do the DPS of a melee isn't ludicrous. the melee gets to do that DPS indefinitely, i get to do it until i run out of SP. i am burning a very limited resource to do DPS, the melees are typically burning an essentially inexhaustible resource to do DPS. greater cost should equal greater reward, and if that is not the case then there is a problem. furthermore, it's only apples to oranges if we're not comparing DPS to DPS. if my sorcerer is supposed to be DPS, then it should be comparable to other DPS, which makes it apples to apples.

[crazydamage]

who cares? me. i care. if savant spells didn't include non-nuking spells, then you'd probably be right about not caring, because those spells are for the most part not good enough to care about. who cares about being able to penetrate SR with flesh to stone? ME. who cares about having a long-lasting cloudkill to keep the raid boss from dealing so much damage? ME. who cares about having the best persistent DPS in the game (still, after multiple nerfings) which is about the only thing that has allowed sorcerers to get through quests efficiently? ME. who cares about being able to use the second-best and third-best such spells, if i so choose, which fill in for those situations where the best one is not viable? ME.

I CARE. that's why i'm not taking a PrE that takes the least useful aspect of my class and buffs it up to the point where it is still the least useful aspect of my class.

@crazydamage: yes, "the best sorcs", meaning the ones who have multiple wizard TRs to free up the spell pen feats, and a bard TR so that they can have the bard active past life, plus the wizard active past life, plus they'll also need epic gear for the +7, the litany of the dead, and a +4 tome. oh, and both spell focus feats. dude, do you actually have a sorcerer? that 'best sorc' isn't going to be a savant, because to have that meaningful DC he's going to be blowing his feats on DC, *not* being a savant. furthermore, that's an absurd amount of effort to have to go through to be good at something if you want to claim it as an advantage of the class; that's got nothing to do with being a sorcerer, and everything to do with having 4 past lives.

the sorc cooldown on instakill spells is not half as much anymore. read the patch notes. 25 vs 30 seconds for AOE, 6 seconds vs 8 for single target.

melee can use scrolls just fine, and in fact many melees do. a single rogue or bard level splash will allow them to put up to 23 points in the skill to do so, and many will add two levels of rogue for evasion anyways. if your melee doesn't use scrolls, it is likely because they chosen to make an investment elsewhere, not because it's unavailable.

extra SP is not always meaningless, but it also isn't nearly as big a difference as it used to be. it is in fact quite small now, and wizards also have some very nice ways to contribute to quests without costing a lot of SP too, so it's much easier to conserve SP when you're not nuking as fast as you can.

and i would be trying to replace melee because that would be the other DPS characters, and DPS is the only thing the savant is going to be particularly awesome at.

@kabaon: it would be nice if sorcerers actually were all that much better at DPS, but they aren't. savant makes them a little better than before, but even then, still not as good as a melee. if you want a DPS, grab a geared melee and leave the savant out of it. if you want CC or instakills, grab a wizard and leave the savant out of it.

i don't want sorcs to be both sorc and wizard, i just want to be able to point to one thing and say "this is what i do, and i'm actually good at it". right now, i can CC essentially as well as a wizard can, by having my DC's nearly maxed out.

as i pointed out to crazydamage, wizards can definitely get their UMD high enough to use scrolls, they just: 1) usually don't need to because the most important advantage of self-healing is often already covered, and 2) have to work harder to get it (for the record, you don't need rogue or bard levels to UMD heal scrolls even on a dumped cha wizard, you just need to farm all the gear to use it).

wizards have slower cooldowns, it is true, but that is easily gotten around by spamming multiple spells, which they have more of to begin with and can change as needed even in the middle of a quest if there's a shrine handy.

and no, complaining that i won't do the DPS of a melee isn't ludicrous. the melee gets to do that DPS indefinitely, i get to do it until i run out of SP. i am burning a very limited resource to do DPS, the melees are typically burning an essentially inexhaustible resource to do DPS. greater cost should equal greater reward, and if that is not the case then there is a problem. furthermore, it's only apples to oranges if we're not comparing DPS to DPS. if my sorcerer is supposed to be DPS, then it should be comparable to other DPS, which makes it apples to apples.

You are correct that you will need multiple wizard past lives to save spell pen feats.

However DC is not an issue. Sorcs CC differently than wizards in epics.A DC of 37 currently would not be acceptable for a wizard, but a sorc can take 37 DC or less into eChrono and do just fine. WHY? because sorcs have a boatload of SP and much lower cooldowns.

So for a wizard you NEED that high DC to prevent things from saving because when they save, your spell is still on cooldown and youre screwed.
Sorcs CC differently because you mass hold, if they save you just cast it again. It is a different type of CC.

Also, if you don't have litany, +7 INT or CHA item and proper gear, you have no business being in epics in the first place. So just enjoy the free DPS from SLA's curses and be happy in Shroud. The Savant PRE seems to do a great job of that.

[Skyeson]

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

I don't necessarily think the weakened element matters too much, although it probably means only 3 of the savants are worth considering unless more spells come out. With limited sorc spells and ap you may already have annexed an element from your spell list. I don't have any electric atm.

I think the splitting of the enhancement lines may be an issue. Although you can get more power, the additional ap costs probably mean you can only max out (or close to max out) 2 elements. So previously you could have maxed out fire and ice and gotten most of force or acid/elec.

So while at the moment I have maxed otu fire and ice and good force, I figure I'll probably have more gimped max damagel as I plan for some versatility.

[Jaid314]

You are correct that you will need multiple wizard past lives to save spell pen feats.

However DC is not an issue. Sorcs CC differently than wizards in epics.A DC of 37 currently would not be acceptable for a wizard, but a sorc can take 37 DC or less into eChrono and do just fine. WHY? because sorcs have a boatload of SP and much lower cooldowns.

So for a wizard you NEED that high DC to prevent things from saving because when they save, your spell is still on cooldown and youre screwed.
Sorcs CC differently because you mass hold, if they save you just cast it again. It is a different type of CC.

Also, if you don't have litany, +7 INT or CHA item and proper gear, you have no business being in epics in the first place. So just enjoy the free DPS from SLA's curses and be happy in Shroud. The Savant PRE seems to do a great job of that.

so, in other words, only the most uber sorcs with quadruple past lives and a perfect gear in the game should be allowed into epics at all, while all it takes for a wizard is to have semi-decent gear and not be a total spaz?

you're not doing a good job of persuading me that sorcerer is a viable class here. if it was a viable class in the new system, then it would only need to have similar requirements to a wizard who wants in. the simple fact that it's not going to be allowed in as a CC, and is also not going to be allowed in as a DPS, and it certainly isn't going to be let in as a healer. so how the hell do i get into epics to get my +7 cha item if that's the case?

your arguments disprove themselves.

furthermore, with DCs increasing by 4, that means that the previously "acceptable" (and i use that term loosely, because with my DC of 38 on enchants i can assure you that there are fights in there where DC 38 is *not* acceptable, even on a sorcerer that can spam spells - the end fight has no minion debuffs) sorcerer will now need DC 41. have you actually done the math to know what you need to for a DC 41 enchant spell on a sorcerer? by the time you have the past lives and gear to do that, you could probably get into the **** raid as a melee because your multiple TR'd, insanely-geared self likely does more DPS than most rogues or barbarians if you care to build for that, even as a 20 sorc.

[Kabaon]

so, in other words, only the most uber sorcs with quadruple past lives and a perfect gear in the game should be allowed into epics at all, while all it takes for a wizard is to have semi-decent gear and not be a total spaz?

you're not doing a good job of persuading me that sorcerer is a viable class here. if it was a viable class in the new system, then it would only need to have similar requirements to a wizard who wants in. the simple fact that it's not going to be allowed in as a CC, and is also not going to be allowed in as a DPS, and it certainly isn't going to be let in as a healer. so how the hell do i get into epics to get my +7 cha item if that's the case?

your arguments disprove themselves.

furthermore, with DCs increasing by 4, that means that the previously "acceptable" (and i use that term loosely, because with my DC of 38 on enchants i can assure you that there are fights in there where DC 38 is *not* acceptable, even on a sorcerer that can spam spells - the end fight has no minion debuffs) sorcerer will now need DC 41. have you actually done the math to know what you need to for a DC 41 enchant spell on a sorcerer? by the time you have the past lives and gear to do that, you could probably get into the **** raid as a melee because your multiple TR'd, insanely-geared self likely does more DPS than most rogues or barbarians if you care to build for that, even as a 20 sorc.

Actually in general on live 38 is acceptable, and really the main place it isn't is the Sands, even with the minion debuff the way it is, but considering a 37 or 38 enchant dc works just fine on my non enchant-specced but rather necromancy specced Pale Master in many epics on live tells me otherwise. Post-U9 pretty much the only one landing enchantment spells will be enchant specced wizards/bards that can get their dc's in the 40+ range (pale masters such as myself MAY be able to do it with the Vampire form, but from my testing I only gain +1 in vampire compared to lich form becuase of the loss to int. Still a net gain but not as high).

Based on the fact that without a lot of work sorcs are not going to be the best for dc's in epic, but rather the dps (and I remember reading somewhere that they reduced mob hp in epics for U9, so this may be slightly more viable then on the live servers now). Yes our dps is limited by our blue bars, but given that there are sla's in the game now for sorcs/wizzies and spell costs have been reduced overall you'll be able to go for a lot longer than before.

Plus there are a couple items that extend that further, namely Bauble and Epic Spell Storing riing (the latter a pain to get). Hell even a regullar spell storing ring will do wonders if you stick to SLA's for a while (since metas effect them and don't change sp costs), although the only ones really worth it in the sla side now are the Water savants. Lets not forget Torcs/Concord Oppo items which extend that even further if you get hit and reliably heal yourself, plus echoes of power, plus pots, and you have an extensive way to continue fighting with minimal sp.

I see sorcs as becoming the de facto arcane dps Post-U9, and wizzies will be one of the main CC'ers.

As for the point about melee's using scrolls, there's what, only two classes in the game that get UMD as a class skill? Rogue and Bards, the rest have to have a high cha skill and the spare skill point(s) to even bother upping it .5 a level. I don't think I have ever seen a pure Fighter, Barbarian, or Pally use a GT scroll, and I don't think for that matter that I've seen a FvS or a Ranger do it either. The only way these classes get a shot at it reliably would be to cross class, which while common, isn't done on every toon.

[GotSomeQuestions]

How are Sorcs behind by 4 after Update 9? It looks like you're up 2 for 12 seconds (no save) if you lead off with Crushing Despair. So your DC 38 is going to behave more like a DC 40. Or even 42, if you land Crushing Despair itself. This favor Sorcerers, who have the faster cast times to pull off a two spell sequence, and more mana to use so they can afford the back to back casting.

[Kabaon]

How are Sorcs behind by 4 after Update 9? It looks like you're up 2 for 12 seconds (no save) if you lead off with Crushing Despair. So your DC 38 is going to behave more like a DC 40. Or even 42, if you land Crushing Despair itself. This favor Sorcerers, who have the faster cast times to pull off a two spell sequence, and more mana to use so they can afford the back to back casting.

Oh ****, I forgot about crushing despair. Hmm so sorcs will still be able to spam dc spells and still be able to do CC, but I think wizzies will still be ahead in this dept. overall. I always felt sorcs should be the dps of arcanes, and the savants just further my thinking in this.

[crazydamage]

A wizard needs those things too for Epic (chrono, sands).

A gimpy wizard could do ok in von or fens with nothing but a dreamspitter and a +2 tome thanks to the PRE.

But thats the price you pay for being a sorc. That +20% DPS capstone and now savant DPS doesnt come free