THIS is why you play a sorc or a savant

[Thrudh]

I'm going to have to neg rep you if you keep doing that.

heh, I got neg-repped myself...

So you guys really want "First!" posts to start popping up on these forums?

[azrael4h]

Greater Mark of Travel.

UMD. My Favored Soul and Paladin both can reliably land Teleport Scrolls, though Ddoor I just stock up on, since I can't buy them. They're an Oh **** thing, when we can't rely on the arcane to cast it. And if I'm having to ddoor, then it is truly an oh **** moment.

[voodoogroves]

heh, I got neg-repped myself...

So you guys really want "First!" posts to start popping up on these forums?

The internet is both amazing and stupid at the same time. I gave up being surprised by internet behavior a long time ago.




On Topic ...


Playing a Sorc is one thing. Investing in Savant is another. I suspect there will be a fair chunk of Sorcs that don't bother because of the feat cost, esp. for an in-flight Sorc or one already at cap.

I also suspect that sorc PREs are going to get typecast in PUGs. "We don't want an X sorc, we want a Wizard or a Y Sorc only". C'est la vie.

[Kabaon]

Playing a Sorc is one thing. Investing in Savant is another. I suspect there will be a fair chunk of Sorcs that don't bother because of the feat cost, esp. for an in-flight Sorc or one already at cap.

I also suspect that sorc PREs are going to get typecast in PUGs. "We don't want an X sorc, we want a Wizard or a Y Sorc only". C'est la vie.

Really from what I can see it comes down to this, what do you wanna do at end game? be a dc sorc or a dps sorc.

If Dc sorc, don't invest in savants, if dps, invest in savants. Personally I'm building a dps sorc, I have a dc caster already, time to do the opposite.

Also, I doubt sorc savants will be typecast except in certain situations, like undead quests and your a water savant, at the same time though, if you grab a few acid spells overall in spite of the nerfs, fine.

But it wouldn't suprise me if lfm's pop up anyway typecasting sorcs.

[Saravis]

Really from what I can see it comes down to this, what do you wanna do at end game? be a dc sorc or a dps sorc.

If Dc sorc, don't invest in savants, if dps, invest in savants. Personally I'm building a dps sorc, I have a dc caster already, time to do the opposite.

Also, I doubt sorc savants will be typecast except in certain situations, like undead quests and your a water savant, at the same time though, if you grab a few acid spells overall in spite of the nerfs, fine.

But it wouldn't suprise me if lfm's pop up anyway typecasting sorcs.

I have that fear as well, the biggest issue with Savants is the demand for in game knowledge they require of the player. A new player creating a water savant because he/she heard that was the end all be all may find themselves severely at a loss in certain situations. With the additional limiting of versatility for sorcerers this is going to get fairly unforgiving for newbie sorcs.

[Kabaon]

I have that fear as well, the biggest issue with Savants is the demand for in game knowledge they require of the player. A new player creating a water savant because he/she heard that was the end all be all may find themselves severely at a loss in certain situations. With the additional limiting of versatility for sorcerers this is going to get fairly unforgiving for newbie sorcs.

Understandably so. But at the same time, no better way to learn then to screw up. I learned my way back from tempest spine alone by climbing the mountain again, learned my lesson, same with my first life caster.

It's all a learning curve, every class has one. But that will reflect back to us when we have them apply in our raid groups I suppose.

[voodoogroves]

Understandably so. But at the same time, no better way to learn then to screw up. I learned my way back from tempest spine alone by climbing the mountain again, learned my lesson, same with my first life caster.

It's all a learning curve, every class has one. But that will reflect back to us when we have them apply in our raid groups I suppose.

Right, now you're coming round to say exactly my fear.

Will a smart, established player be ok? Sure thing.

How long before well-intentioned new players (or even poorer players) take before Sorcerers are cast in the same light as rogues?

You can absolutely build a very respectable first life rogue if you know what your'e doing. You still probably won't hit the HP targets that the current raid mentality expects at end game unless you can support it with twink gear. A second life toon will have even more goodies and when they reach Gianthold with their GS HP item, Madstone boots and tricked out rapiers or q-staff there won't be any worry of it being squishy, a non-contributor or a revolving soulstone.

But well-meaning new players or even low-twinkage existing players will continue to have a difficult time making a first life (or better, first-toon) rogue that won't be derided when Shroud time comes. Less than 300 HP? U SUK U NOOBER.


That's exactly my fear on sorcerers and the savants. Will my Tukaw still be productive? Hell yeah. Will my straight 20 be as productive? Well, CC took a bit of a hit and I could swing a savant and go more DPS. I'd need to swap the enchant focus for conjure/evocation to go savant though, and that plus the save increase will mean that things like Last Stand won't be an easy entry (with good reason). Still, I can probably brute force with multiple symbols and energy drains to make stuff happen, or just DPS it down.

But that's me.

What about Joe Newguy. He rolls a sorc and muddles his way to 20 because honestly, that's not too hard. He starts raiding and steps into VoD and hears "cloudkill would be nice, or acid fog" and he says "I don't carry those, I'm an Air Sorc". Now he's made one persons DNG list at that point. Fair or not, that's the way the metagame works. Players who play to the strength of the class will reinforce an opinion by the masses and blammo ... Sorcerers may end up being colored in the same light as Rogues.

That's the danger - if build X and strategy Y are the quickest/best or simply most herd-mentality-accepted ways to get things done then all of those other options that are not X and Y are going to be regarded poorly by the metagame. You have plenty of options, but not if you want to play in open pick up groups. If you want to stick with closed play (guild / channel / friends / etc.) then you can get away with a ton more.


We'll see how this unfolds once U9 goes live.

I'm just thankful at least two of the Savant abilities are CON based, 'cause at least that will cut down on CON dumping and help manage that metagame reaction.

[Jaid314]

Really from what I can see it comes down to this, what do you wanna do at end game? be a dc sorc or a dps sorc.

If Dc sorc, don't invest in savants, if dps, invest in savants. Personally I'm building a dps sorc, I have a dc caster already, time to do the opposite.

Also, I doubt sorc savants will be typecast except in certain situations, like undead quests and your a water savant, at the same time though, if you grab a few acid spells overall in spite of the nerfs, fine.

But it wouldn't suprise me if lfm's pop up anyway typecasting sorcs.

suit yourself. but just don't be too surprised when you find out your DSP sorc isn't very good DPS except for when you blow everything you have (not even leaving SP for buffs) in under a minute.

with 5x curse it was really powerful, but expensive. with 1x curse, it's mostly just expensive.

[Kabaon]

suit yourself. but just don't be too surprised when you find out your DSP sorc isn't very good DPS except for when you blow everything you have (not even leaving SP for buffs) in under a minute.

with 5x curse it was really powerful, but expensive. with 1x curse, it's mostly just expensive.

Not too worried about it, seeing as I played a wizzy first I know how to use my sl-a's, my items, and my sp to my adavantage. And if you don't know, wizzies aren't awesome dps either, but I do my fair share of it come raid time. Sure I could blow my 3k sp in the first 5 seconds and whine when I didn't kill the raid boss fastest, or I could space my spells out and actually contribute, mostly if things go downhill mid fight/end fight. I'm not actually interested in how FAST a raid boss dies, but rather that it DOES die.

Also, based on the way things are now, the learning curves for sorcs are tough if you opted to be one as your first character, simply becuase of spell choices and feat choices. Admittedly it might get harder if people opt for savants, but many will roll with the punches. The ones that fail will fall out of memory.

[voodoogroves]

Admittedly it might get harder if people opt for savants, but many will roll with the punches. The ones that fail will fall out of memory.

I sincerely hope so. That has not been the case for Rogues, ranged Rangers, "battle" clerics, etc.

[Kabaon]

I forget bad players, not bad builds XD so for me, yes my statement is true

[domecek1]

A wizard needs those things too for Epic (chrono, sands).

A gimpy wizard could do ok in von or fens with nothing but a dreamspitter and a +2 tome thanks to the PRE.

But thats the price you pay for being a sorc. That +20% DPS capstone and now savant DPS doesnt come free

Lol, are you crazy? Do you think, sorces will be allowed in u9 echrono? Because it looks like you think, that both clasess have same epic skills. I have sorc with 39 ench/conjur DC, which is more then have some wizards, but there are no sorc icon in epic lfms sometimes. Do you think, that our dps in u9 epics will be so high, that lfms will open to just dps sorces? Yeah, it looks like I will have enough sp to join epic chains only with my dps probably. This game isnt only ToD or shroud end fights, please weak up.

[Jaid314]

Not too worried about it, seeing as I played a wizzy first I know how to use my sl-a's, my items, and my sp to my adavantage. And if you don't know, wizzies aren't awesome dps either, but I do my fair share of it come raid time. Sure I could blow my 3k sp in the first 5 seconds and whine when I didn't kill the raid boss fastest, or I could space my spells out and actually contribute, mostly if things go downhill mid fight/end fight. I'm not actually interested in how FAST a raid boss dies, but rather that it DOES die.

Also, based on the way things are now, the learning curves for sorcs are tough if you opted to be one as your first character, simply becuase of spell choices and feat choices. Admittedly it might get harder if people opt for savants, but many will roll with the punches. The ones that fail will fall out of memory.

if your sorcerer can't offer good CC, and only does burst DPS for an extremely short time, what makes you think you'll even be in raids at all except as a pity invitation?

i mean, what role do you envision your sorcerer filling to get into raid parties? if you deal your full DPS in one minute or three makes no difference, you're not doing more damage just because you're doing it slowly.

furthermore, if you slow it down to half that rate... you're basically doing melee damage so that you can last for two minutes instead of one (probably a bit longer since you'll likely focus a bit more on your SLAs, but since those only get you to something like 200 DPS if everything goes perfectly, that's gonna probably take your DPS lower than a melee).

there are only so many slots to fill. if you cannot fill the role that goes into those slots, you are not needed for the raid. i agree that it's most important that the boss die, not how fast he dies, but i do expect to be useful.

with previous builds, a sorcerer could fill the dps slot very well... adding to both their own and even party damage. there was actually a reason to bring multiple casters into a party instead of refusing anything beyond the minimum required (usually 1-2). now? well, frankly, now i'm going to count myself lucky if people let *one* sorcerer into anything challenging apart from runs where people know the character isn't very effective, but will bring you along anyways because they know you.

[Kabaon]

And aside from some minor changes, what stops people from taking sorcs NOW, without work their dc's never match up with a wizzies, and the only other option is dps.

[Jaid314]

And aside from some minor changes, what stops people from taking sorcs NOW, without work their dc's never match up with a wizzies, and the only other option is dps.

right now, people do have crowd control sorcerers. it's hard, but possible (even without past life feats) to get a viable DC on a sorcerer for epics. not sure how doable it is for amrath elite (i suspect you would definitely need those past life feats), but definitely epics.

after the patch, our shorter cooldown on important spells is going up, spell effectiveness is changing, epic mob saves are going up, extend is no longer working on our persistent crowd-control, and all of that was going to be ok for a while because sorcerer would have a useful function in very high burst DPS that would contribute greatly to boss fights while having SLAs to keep them from feeling useless while they hoard SP on the way there. now, the SLAs are not as spammable, the very high burst DPS is not nearly as high, and all of the other changes remain. i've lost a lot of effectiveness with my non-DPS spells, whether i take the PrE or not. i've lost AP efficiency because of the elemental line splittings, whether i take the PrE or not. i've had my persistent AOE damage spells nerfed, whether i take the PrE or not.

[voodoogroves]

heh, I got neg-repped myself...

So you guys really want "First!" posts to start popping up on these forums?

Haha this is awesome I got neg-repped for commiserating with you. I love the internets.

[Caseas]

Did, uh.. everyone in this thread forget that every enemy in the game is having it's hp reduced, "significantly" according to Turbine.

Forgo CC and just blow it all up.

[Engar1]

U9 to sorcs must be one of the greatest teases in DDO history. Like taking some poor forgotten starving soul to a feast then chaining them up a few feet away while you eat it in front of them. And to think, sorcs once ruled DDO. How far they have fallen. Ah well, it has been fun remembering that... NOW BACK IN YOUR CAGE!

[Engar1]

Did, uh.. everyone in this thread forget that every enemy in the game is having it's hp reduced, "significantly" according to Turbine.

Forgo CC and just blow it all up.

Yea sorc dps!

Unless of course melee blow it up better...

then you can always cc...

oh, wait, nope suck at that...

well you can always farm scrolls in epic wiz king...

bah, they are planning to make scrolls universal so...

shroud farm?

****, only taking one caster and it is the wiz they run epics with...

hmmm... at least you are only four +5 lesser hearts and an SoS away from being truly valued as a character...

[Jaid314]

Did, uh.. everyone in this thread forget that every enemy in the game is having it's hp reduced, "significantly" according to Turbine.

Forgo CC and just blow it all up.

no, *epic* mobs are getting fewer HP. every other mob in the game is unaffected.

and in any case, that would not really buff sorcerers as such... melee would still do more sustained DPS and tear apart the trash faster. unless of course you blow all your SP on killing trash, at which point you very shortly become utterly useless.