THIS is why you play a sorc or a savant

[Angelus_dead]

if you lead off with Crushing Despair. So your DC 38 is going to behave more like a DC 40. Or even 42, if you land Crushing Despair itself. This favor Sorcerers

I haven't checked the exact layout conflicts, but the number of Sorcerers who presently have Crushing Despair is far below 1%. As a general rule Wizards have an advantage in being able to slot in a bigger variety of spells.

[Aeolwind]

I don't necessarily think the weakened element matters too much, although it probably means only 3 of the savants are worth considering unless more spells come out. With limited sorc spells and ap you may already have annexed an element from your spell list. I don't have any electric atm.

I think the splitting of the enhancement lines may be an issue. Although you can get more power, the additional ap costs probably mean you can only max out (or close to max out) 2 elements. So previously you could have maxed out fire and ice and gotten most of force or acid/elec.

So while at the moment I have maxed otu fire and ice and good force, I figure I'll probably have more gimped max damagel as I plan for some versatility.

You can skip the PRE and max 3 lines out if you sac 2 AP from somewhere else. And save a feat. So, you could have 3 very viable high damage lines and get better DC's.

Reliable mass hold = 50% boost in damage, sorc PrE kinda kills being able to get reliable DC's and only boosts damage by 15% to 1 target (excluding the focus field, in which case it would be slightly more, but is instantly offset by your counter focus). With PLF's and some fairly rare gear you might could get the reliable hold ratio on a sorc with the PrE, but still, you are only doing 15% more damage to 1 target. And if you go ice, you'd lose WOF effectiveness, fire loses polar ray, air doesn't really lose anything, and acid doesn't really gain anything because of the crappy spells available for it and the poor implementation of acid rain/fog.

I don't even have a sorc and can see the gaps in the play book. If you want to be a 1 trick pony, then the sorc PrE is the way to go. But due to the variation in content, you will be far less desirable in many quests depending on which path you choose if you have nothing to fall back on.

[Aeolwind]

I haven't checked the exact layout conflicts, but the number of Sorcerers who presently have Crushing Despair is far below 1%. As a general rule Wizards have an advantage in being able to slot in a bigger variety of spells.

And couple that with the fact that they can change those spells, at will to suite what it is they are fighting. This update pigeon holes sorc's very tightly and doesn't boost them enough in that hole to make them be able to shine like a wizard can.

[Jaid314]

i can tell you now, 38 DC is *not* enough for the end fight in chrono. expect to have the trash going all over the place unless you can do better than that, making what is either a very easy fight or a very hard fight (depending on whether your tank can dodge the abishai's special attacks) into either a very hard fight or often a party wipe.

i can also tell you that DC 42 is actually not *impossible* with a sorcerer, just really hard to reach. as i said, i'm at 38 right now, and could add another point with the right gear. i could add yet another if i could free up a feat (i'm debating extend, now that it's not nearly as good). and, in theory, i could add up to two more if i had the past life feats for it, and feat slots available (that's where the three wizard past lives and 1 bard past life come in). the thing is, that's pretty much what will be needed for *every* fight in epic chrono now... so forget about bringing a sorcerer (or a bard for that matter; you only get possibly +1 DC on a bard over sorcerer, if you're a spellsinger, and have spellsong active, but again... unless you have a ton of past life feats, you're going to need to really spam stuff then, and you'll run out of SP way too fast on a bard, even with spellsong vigor).

and again, we come to the reduced mob HP (for epics only) in U9. that's helpful, but the problem is, the melee will still melee down those mobs faster than i can nuke them down, unless i'm blowing my SP on my most powerful spells and hitting multiple targets... and the melees will still be perfectly useful in the end fight if they do that, while my sorcerer will be basically useless in the end fight unless i stick to only SLAs. SLAs which, for the record, do not compete with melee DPS at all. particularly since lower DCs means i'll have to stop every so often and drop a fresh mass hold/web/whatever.

echoes of power is garbage, and does not add much of anything at all to quests beyond level 2 or so. it will let you use your SLAs, but you won't even be able to spam those, and they weren't exactly amazing to begin with. and it only kicks in if you have no mana to cast useful spells in the first place. concordant op and torc do help, but unless you're going to stand there and get shot for a while it's not nearly enough. it's especially not nearly enough when you're getting shot by *epic* monsters, which makes it harder to keep your SP up through unless you're burning someone *else's* blue bar. and the amount of time you'd need to spend getting beat up to keep you able to get through quests by nuking... ugh. no thanks. i'll pass. unless you have insane DR and are facing the rare epic mob with low damage (i don't think i've met one of those yet for the most part), it just isn't really going to work too well.

and the problem with becoming the de facto arcane DPS in U9 is that you're still not going to be able to fill a DPS slot. the position you are applying for does not exist; nobody is looking for an arcane DPS. they're just looking for DPS, and they're not going to look at a sorcerer and say "well, sorcerers can be pretty decent DPS compared to wizards", they're going to look at a sorcerer and say "well, we could just bring a melee and get more DPS, and the melee won't run out of DPS 3 minutes into the quest".

as for mana potions, well... that shouldn't ever be your default plan. if you expect to need a mana potion to finish the quest, that means you either shouldn't be there or you're doing the quest wrong.

[Jaid314]

How are Sorcs behind by 4 after Update 9? It looks like you're up 2 for 12 seconds (no save) if you lead off with Crushing Despair. So your DC 38 is going to behave more like a DC 40. Or even 42, if you land Crushing Despair itself. This favor Sorcerers, who have the faster cast times to pull off a two spell sequence, and more mana to use so they can afford the back to back casting.

no, because the serious wizards already have the DC boost and don't depend on it lasting for only 15 seconds, or they have that DC boost *and* can spam a nearly-free hypno at quickened speed first.

also, that's a level 4 spell (very competitive spell level), and won't be very common. and furthermore, that means you're expecting to drop a heightened spell just to be able to land your CC, when the wizard likely won't even need it at all (but still has the option if it matters).

A wizard needs those things too for Epic (chrono, sands).

A gimpy wizard could do ok in von or fens with nothing but a dreamspitter and a +2 tome thanks to the PRE.

But thats the price you pay for being a sorc. That +20% DPS capstone and now savant DPS doesnt come free

the +20% damage capstone is easily balanced by the wizard capstone (+2 int, cheaper metamagics especially heighten) and the sorcerer PrE doesn't have good DPS, it just has DPS that is not quite as bad.

You can skip the PRE and max 3 lines out if you sac 2 AP from somewhere else. And save a feat. So, you could have 3 very viable high damage lines and get better DC's.

Reliable mass hold = 50% boost in damage, sorc PrE kinda kills being able to get reliable DC's and only boosts damage by 15% to 1 target (excluding the focus field, in which case it would be slightly more, but is instantly offset by your counter focus). With PLF's and some fairly rare gear you might could get the reliable hold ratio on a sorc with the PrE, but still, you are only doing 15% more damage to 1 target. And if you go ice, you'd lose WOF effectiveness, fire loses polar ray, air doesn't really lose anything, and acid doesn't really gain anything because of the crappy spells available for it and the poor implementation of acid rain/fog.

I don't even have a sorc and can see the gaps in the play book. If you want to be a 1 trick pony, then the sorc PrE is the way to go. But due to the variation in content, you will be far less desirable in many quests depending on which path you choose if you have nothing to fall back on.

air loses out on flesh to stone and the duration of cloudkill, which is needed for raid boss fights. most important though is the spell pen on flesh to stone.

there's nothing inherently wrong with being a one-trick pony, so long as that trick is good. for an elemental savant, that one trick is not good, and the other tricks they can do halfway-decent are completely upstaged by the dancing bear next door.

[Kabaon]

i can tell you now, 38 DC is *not* enough for the end fight in chrono. expect to have the trash going all over the place unless you can do better than that, making what is either a very easy fight or a very hard fight (depending on whether your tank can dodge the abishai's special attacks) into either a very hard fight or often a party wipe.

i can also tell you that DC 42 is actually not *impossible* with a sorcerer, just really hard to reach. as i said, i'm at 38 right now, and could add another point with the right gear. i could add yet another if i could free up a feat (i'm debating extend, now that it's not nearly as good). and, in theory, i could add up to two more if i had the past life feats for it, and feat slots available (that's where the three wizard past lives and 1 bard past life come in). the thing is, that's pretty much what will be needed for *every* fight in epic chrono now... so forget about bringing a sorcerer (or a bard for that matter; you only get possibly +1 DC on a bard over sorcerer, if you're a spellsinger, and have spellsong active, but again... unless you have a ton of past life feats, you're going to need to really spam stuff then, and you'll run out of SP way too fast on a bard, even with spellsong vigor).

and again, we come to the reduced mob HP (for epics only) in U9. that's helpful, but the problem is, the melee will still melee down those mobs faster than i can nuke them down, unless i'm blowing my SP on my most powerful spells and hitting multiple targets... and the melees will still be perfectly useful in the end fight if they do that, while my sorcerer will be basically useless in the end fight unless i stick to only SLAs. SLAs which, for the record, do not compete with melee DPS at all. particularly since lower DCs means i'll have to stop every so often and drop a fresh mass hold/web/whatever.

echoes of power is garbage, and does not add much of anything at all to quests beyond level 2 or so. it will let you use your SLAs, but you won't even be able to spam those, and they weren't exactly amazing to begin with. and it only kicks in if you have no mana to cast useful spells in the first place. concordant op and torc do help, but unless you're going to stand there and get shot for a while it's not nearly enough. it's especially not nearly enough when you're getting shot by *epic* monsters, which makes it harder to keep your SP up through unless you're burning someone *else's* blue bar. and the amount of time you'd need to spend getting beat up to keep you able to get through quests by nuking... ugh. no thanks. i'll pass. unless you have insane DR and are facing the rare epic mob with low damage (i don't think i've met one of those yet for the most part), it just isn't really going to work too well.

and the problem with becoming the de facto arcane DPS in U9 is that you're still not going to be able to fill a DPS slot. the position you are applying for does not exist; nobody is looking for an arcane DPS. they're just looking for DPS, and they're not going to look at a sorcerer and say "well, sorcerers can be pretty decent DPS compared to wizards", they're going to look at a sorcerer and say "well, we could just bring a melee and get more DPS, and the melee won't run out of DPS 3 minutes into the quest".

as for mana potions, well... that shouldn't ever be your default plan. if you expect to need a mana potion to finish the quest, that means you either shouldn't be there or you're doing the quest wrong.

I have seen 37/38 dc's work fine in eChrono, just not as well as say a 39+ dc. Sands, yeah, completely craptacular if you have less then 39 in certain quests, but lets go into the dps side of sorcs.

Hypthetically what, sorcs have 2200 sp if they have a decent cha, no items boosting it and are level 20. Ok, so given that say, a 6 sp frost lance sla that is effected by maximize/empower with no extra cost, a caster level well beyond what a wizard/non savant sorc could reach, and a cooldown if I remember correctly of 3 seconds give for 6 sp how many of these could you spam? 352 frost lances (1056 bolts) per for for 2200 sp. And while I'm being nice, lets make the damage be about 200 per bolt and that the mobs don't pass saves on the frost lance. Doing the math just with these numbers I got a total of 211200 dmg from frost lance alone, I know it won't be as high given mob saves, crit damage, immunities, and how well the character is built. I also know that people would opt for other spells given that there ARE stronger spells out there. But the math pretty much shows that you can be a support dps rather than be strictly dps or a support class.

Yeah, echoes of power isn't great, but it allows you to continue on, and seeing as sl-as are cheap it keeps you from being entirely useless in any quest, also Torc and Concord Oppo still work in epic, the main problem is the dmg mobs do so I see your point. You forgot about baubles and other items that give you sp back like I stated before. These should be your first line of sp regen if your in a tight situation or not quite near a shrine. I never said you should plan to use pots when going into any quest, but the option is still there if you need the extra boost, again, in a tight situation. My point about it was that there are OPTIONS to keep yourself going, if you choose to ignore them, then yes, sorcs and other classes aren't dps if they are caster based. But the way I see it, you can pretty much go for however long you choose to before shrining, especially if your savvy about sl-as.

[steelblueskies]

stuck agreeing with the general gist of crazy's statement. it ain't perfect, but then ain't isn't a real word either and here we are.

biggest thing now is spell resistance. sorc cc means you spam twice. first fail leaves a debuff, and you can get the second or even third off before that first debuff wears off. think mass holds vulnerability debuff was -6 to save in lam build 1 this cycle, not sure if it still is. short duration though.

still everything's a bit rough around the edges going forward, but i think we can live at present without total rerolls.
then again i'm a wizard, and all you wilders- erm, sorcerers are somebody else's problem so long as you don't make a mess that splashes on us.
still wish they'd remove this echoes bs though. oh well.

[Winteris]

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities

based on CON modifier, useless, its hard to have usable DC based on your main ability

Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them).

if u think that spamming 3 mediocre damage spells over and over can be called fun im pity of u

Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE.

omg, thank u very much,that saved my day

Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC.

first of all they r not free, second, saying it over and over does not make it any better

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

And that is also not true, u forgot about splitting enhancement line and increasing AP cost


I think that u r trolling, its incredible amount of BS in your posts, but u succed,i fed u

[Skyeson]

Hypthetically what, sorcs have 2200 sp if they have a decent cha, no items boosting it and are level 20. Ok, so given that say, a 6 sp frost lance sla that is effected by maximize/empower with no extra cost, a caster level well beyond what a wizard/non savant sorc could reach, and a cooldown if I remember correctly of 3 seconds give for 6 sp how many of these could you spam? 352 frost lances (1056 bolts) per for for 2200 sp. And while I'm being nice, lets make the damage be about 200 per bolt and that the mobs don't pass saves on the frost lance. Doing the math just with these numbers I got a total of 211200 dmg from frost lance alone, I know it won't be as high given mob saves, crit damage, immunities, and how well the character is built. I also know that people would opt for other spells given that there ARE stronger spells out there. But the math pretty much shows that you can be a support dps rather than be strictly dps or a support class.

I found frost lance not so good when I tried it. Many mobs seemed to save quite often. The problem though with being support DPS is you are then kinda jockeying with bards for the buff/support dps slot but bards buffs will increase DPS much more. Yes you may have convenience spells too but their CC specialist Wiz should have those too. Bascially, it seems that sorcs will be the first support class to get filtered out when putting up LFMs or picking party members.

[Kabaon]

I found frost lance not so good when I tried it. Many mobs seemed to save quite often. The problem though with being support DPS is you are then kinda jockeying with bards for the buff/support dps slot but bards buffs will increase DPS much more. Yes you may have convenience spells too but their CC specialist Wiz should have those too. Bascially, it seems that sorcs will be the first support class to get filtered out when putting up LFMs or picking party members.

Yes, well the frost lance will still be useful, and I assume that even when they save they still take a fair amount of damage, still beats the wizzy sl-a's that can't be maximize/empowered. To put it in perspective that frost lance is still a decent sl-a, lets say a frost lance sl-a is cast and the mob saves on all 3 bolts, and you do 100 damage a bolt (on a successful save). That's 300 dmg, not exactly awesome, but ok. Lets take Necrotic Blast and do the same, on a successful save a mob generally takes 60 dmg, instead of the 100-150 it would take on a non crit. Honestly the frost lance in comparison is still way better (and these are tier 3 sl-a's I'm using in my example).

I also ask to you, we're you fully geared? I ask becuase if you have your potency (or freeze clickies) a decent crit rate and a ToD set, I would assume mobs would save less and take a decent amount of damage. I used it during my time on Lam and found it ok, and I wasn't fully geared. I had a potency item and that was it, and I did fine with it in non-epics.

And by support dps I meant that you could spam spells for a fair amount of time, and quite a while before needing a shrine (if at all if you can manage your sp). Yes, melees can do unlimited amounts of damage, but they are limited unless they multiclass in what else they can do. Imo a Pure or Savant Sorc is superior to a Pure Fighter becuase of what the sorc can do that the fighter can't. Obviously the sorc can't out dps the fighter, but the fighter is more than likely going to die long before the sorc simply becuase the sorc could potentially heal itself and then cast more spells where the fighter has to rely on healers, pots and outside sources. That being said if they work together they can beat things down faster, hence why I said a suppport DPS as it augments the damage already being done. Bards can do the same, but from what I'm trying to convey, they aren't the same kind of support dps.

I suspect that sorcs of all kinds will still be accepted into groups, it would be a bit rediculous to suddenly say "Your a sorc, no sorcs allowed, sorry" becuase of what devs have done. In my time since I started playing around F2P, I haven't witnessed a mass rejection of a class based on changes to the game, even when Pale Master was launched, and they didn't have self heals, and only a 3 min stance, I don't see why now savants wouldn't be accepted.

[Winteris]

I suspect that sorcs of all kinds will still be accepted into groups, it would be a bit rediculous to suddenly say "Your a sorc, no sorcs allowed, sorry" becuase of what devs have done. In my time since I started playing around F2P, I haven't witnessed a mass rejection of a class based on changes to the game, even when Pale Master was launched, and they didn't have self heals, and only a 3 min stance, I don't see why now savants wouldn't be accepted.

So devs gives us Prestige enhancement and we should be thankful because it will not (probably) exclude us form game ? I always thought that prestige should make class better, not worse.

Additionally i think that devs just sacrificed fun for balance, personally i dont give a s**t about balance, ability to spam 3 weak spells every 8 second is not my definition of fun.

[Kabaon]

So devs gives us Prestige enhancement and we should be thankful because it will not (probably) exclude us form game ? I always thought that prestige should make class better, not worse.

Additionally i think that devs just sacrificed fun for balance, personally i dont give a s**t about balance, ability to spam 3 weak spells every 8 second is not my definition of fun.

And how exactly does this PrE make you "worse"? Also, aside from a few changes from the source material, the savant pretty much stays with the basics. There is a trade off in the books for 3.5 that pretty much has been pulled out and directly translated. If you pick an element, you lose from the opposing element.

You know what the trade off for Pale Master was when they launched it in DDO? You can't be healed except from Negative energy. I know at that time there were few healers if at all that were even willing to carry negative energy spells to heal wizzies. The only reason neg energys spells were even added was ecuase the PrE was, imo, borderline lackluster, to the point of Deepwood Sniper. Add in sl-a's, change the stance time from 3 min to perma (from shrine to shrine) and only then has it become worthwhile.

Ok, no one is forcing you to spam those 3 sl-a's, continue casting regular spells, that's not an issue. The reason I am pro sl-a is becuase I play in such a way that I don't like wasting shrines unless it's use or lose. If I'm low on sp I will skip the nearest shrine, use all of my sp, and then return to it to fill up and continue on, meanwhile the other people in my party generally continue on without me becuase they already shrined and buffed. I catch up, and go on from there. Also doing elite coal chamber at level 18 and not shrining until the end becuase I had 1k sp left, and only shrined becuase I buffed people people helps (and I had the highest kill count). Sl-a's are something to supplement your real spells, or use when you don't have a lot of sp left.

Also, while I thought about it, Pale Masters STILL have ****** summons, if it weren't for those, the PrE would be even better now, but at least they are optional.

[Zerkul]

Thank god the sorc savant PRE seems balanced now.

You play an ARCANE (sorc/wiz) because you enjoy playing the most powerful class PreU9 or PostU9.

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability.
The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill).
The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc.

You play SORC because you appreciate the advantages vs a wizard
Double SP From SP items
Faster casting animations
Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard
CHA based caster class with powerful UMD
Capstone with +20% DMG

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities
Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them).
Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE.
Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC.

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

That's clearly a post of someone who doens't play a sorcerer or haven't played it enough. Plus that's just another flame thread. I can perceive some degree of envy in you writing.

[steelblueskies]

Yes, well the frost lance will still be useful, and I assume that even when they save they still take a fair amount of damage, still beats the wizzy sl-a's that can't be maximize/empowered. To put it in perspective that frost lance is still a decent sl-a, lets say a frost lance sl-a is cast and the mob saves on all 3 bolts, and you do 100 damage a bolt (on a successful save). That's 300 dmg, not exactly awesome, but ok. Lets take Necrotic Blast and do the same, on a successful save a mob generally takes 60 dmg, instead of the 100-150 it would take on a non crit. Honestly the frost lance in comparison is still way better (and these are tier 3 sl-a's I'm using in my example).

I also ask to you, we're you fully geared? I ask becuase if you have your potency (or freeze clickies) a decent crit rate and a ToD set, I would assume mobs would save less and take a decent amount of damage. I used it during my time on Lam and found it ok, and I wasn't fully geared. I had a potency item and that was it, and I did fine with it in non-epics.

And by support dps I meant that you could spam spells for a fair amount of time, and quite a while before needing a shrine (if at all if you can manage your sp). Yes, melees can do unlimited amounts of damage, but they are limited unless they multiclass in what else they can do. Imo a Pure or Savant Sorc is superior to a Pure Fighter becuase of what the sorc can do that the fighter can't. Obviously the sorc can't out dps the fighter, but the fighter is more than likely going to die long before the sorc simply becuase the sorc could potentially heal itself and then cast more spells where the fighter has to rely on healers, pots and outside sources. That being said if they work together they can beat things down faster, hence why I said a suppport DPS as it augments the damage already being done. Bards can do the same, but from what I'm trying to convey, they aren't the same kind of support dps.

I suspect that sorcs of all kinds will still be accepted into groups, it would be a bit rediculous to suddenly say "Your a sorc, no sorcs allowed, sorry" becuase of what devs have done. In my time since I started playing around F2P, I haven't witnessed a mass rejection of a class based on changes to the game, even when Pale Master was launched, and they didn't have self heals, and only a 3 min stance, I don't see why now savants wouldn't be accepted.

the thing that has to go to make your lead in true- mobs with evasion. apparently even some skelly archers as early as deleras have it. it gets worse from there. start seeing more and more mobs with it.

taking another example with 352 shots of frost lance. there are plenty of quests with in excess of 200 kills to get into conquest range(usually pretty close to completion in general if you can't leave things to potentially wander up and clock you at a bad moment). even assuming every hit lands, and a solo (ie dungeon scaled run) at normal, there are places that wouldn't cut it.

the balance out point is of course that there will be a shrine somewhere breaking that 200+ into more manageable chunks for the sp pool. the counterbalance is lost damage due to overkill( on not quite dead but still just as deadly as at full mobs). phasing, out of range, burrowing, "not facing", "blocked", not blocked but intervening object, etc eating the cast sp for no gain. and lord help us if something has high regen in any new content that can't be stopped with fire or acid.

the breaking point is that if dps sp outlasts healing sp, and party hp, without also outlasting mob hp, you lose.

prestiges are just flavor in a dynamic campaign sitting with a few people and an interactive gm. here we have two options since everything is "canned". either design so that certain classes or prestiges have a use in current content that doesn't break all the others usefulness totally ( ie general build design and get forced trying for variation while keeping everything as much the same performance wise as possible), or pump out much more content and fit in quests that extensively benefit one or two classes or pre's. the latter is even more problematic for them given the content sale model, and the time in development. there *should* be quests that arcane casting will never complete requiring a brute force approach. there should be places in game where an arcane is absolutely required. ditto for rogue skills, those diplomatic skills(bluff, diplo, intimidate) as opposed to being optional. there aren't many because they favor one class or build too strongly to the exclusion of the others.

[MsEricka]

Also, if you don't have litany, +7 INT or CHA item and proper gear, you have no business being in epics in the first place

Fail. You don't NEED a Litany or +7 anything to complete epics. If this is your view then the world must be very sad from your eyes. Of course you should have proper gear but epics can be done undergeared as well.

According to you, if you don't have +7 INT or CHA you shouldn't do epics. So how do you expect people to get +7 INT or CHA items? Pull them out of their arse? You need to stop talking about things you have no clue about and stick to Shroud as you stated.

[Delt]

Thank god the sorc savant PRE seems balanced now.

You play an ARCANE (sorc/wiz) because you enjoy playing the most powerful class PreU9 or PostU9.

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability.
The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill).
The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc.

You play SORC because you appreciate the advantages vs a wizard
Double SP From SP items
Faster casting animations
Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard
CHA based caster class with powerful UMD
Capstone with +20% DMG

You play a SAVANT because you appreciate the free and balanced special abilities
Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything. Now you can rotate spamming 3 keys every 8 seconds (or however long for each of them).
Free non stacking curse for a bit of a dmg boost ON TOP OF YOUR 20% CAPSTONE.
Free "perk" Abundant step/knockdown immunity / earthgrab ETC.

Weakened in 1 element - WHO CARES you have THREE Other elements PLUS Force. Sorcs u9 have only fire/cold.

I thought this was a joke post when I started reading.

...but then near the end, there wasn't a punchline and I was all like: o_0

[Winteris]

And how exactly does this PrE make you "worse"? Also, aside from a few changes from the source material, the savant pretty much stays with the basics. There is a trade off in the books for 3.5 that pretty much has been pulled out and directly translated. If you pick an element, you lose from the opposing element.

I just see no benefits. When im comparing what is Frienzed Berserker for barbs, Kensai for fighters and Savant for sorcs i see that barbs and fighters by not taking their Pre r severly gimping theirselves. If sorc wont take PrE he will be definitely more flexible, will loose 3 not really needed Sla and few percent of damage in one element. I just see no reason to take it and considering heavy nerfs they done i think that overall it is a change for worse.

You know what the trade off for Pale Master was when they launched it in DDO? You can't be healed except from Negative energy. I know at that time there were few healers if at all that were even willing to carry negative energy spells to heal wizzies. The only reason neg energys spells were even added was ecuase the PrE was, imo, borderline lackluster, to the point of Deepwood Sniper. Add in sl-a's, change the stance time from 3 min to perma (from shrine to shrine) and only then has it become worthwhile.

There r many weak PrE in game, but it is not a reason to make another. Releasing weak Pre, testing it on live servers and making players to wait for full functionality for months is not good game design. They have all the tools to measure impact of given ability on game yet they release unbalanced Pre and nerf it 3 times in two weeks ? Its really lame imho.

[domecek1]

edit:EHM

[Mjesko]

The most powerful class with the most powerful CC ability.

The most powerful instant death (Finger/Wail) which dominates all sub lvl 20 quests and raids (shroud/vale etc) and will dominate epics in U9 (circle of death, power word kill).

The most powerful "convenience" abilities : Teleport, Greater teleport, haste, Jump, Invis, Featherfall, DDoor, shadowwalk etc.

Much shorter spell cooldowns than a wizard

Cheap SLAs for sustained DPS during red named fights for all the people that cried that they couldnt do anything.

The cc spells and death spells are less powerful in U9, because the monsters save more often against cc spells and the death spells have longer cooldowns.

The most powerful "convenience" abilities should include spells that improve the power of melee characters, too (haste, displacement, ...).

In U9 the cooldown difference between the casters is reduced.

The SLAs are cheap, but far away from sustained dps, because they have a long cooldown.

[fyrst.grok]

snip

and i would be trying to replace melee because that would be the other DPS characters, and DPS is the only thing the savant is going to be particularly awesome at.

snip

and no, complaining that i won't do the DPS of a melee isn't ludicrous. the melee gets to do that DPS indefinitely, i get to do it until i run out of SP. i am burning a very limited resource to do DPS, the melees are typically burning an essentially inexhaustible resource to do DPS. greater cost should equal greater reward, and if that is not the case then there is a problem. furthermore, it's only apples to oranges if we're not comparing DPS to DPS. if my sorcerer is supposed to be DPS, then it should be comparable to other DPS, which makes it apples to apples.

Enough with the doom and gloom..
Fighters can't cast resistance, GH, haste, rage etc... You can however, so you should be dps'ing somewhere between a melee warchanter and a full melee.

What would the point be in having wizards if sorcs could CC just as good?