Please Remove "Echoes of Power"

[gyerv59]

Keep echoes of power!!!111!!

And also!!

Add echoes of HP. When you reach 10 HP or less, regen 4 HP every 6 seconds until 10% HP!

Add echoes of plat. When you've spent all your plat, regen 1 plat every minute until 1000 plat!

Echoes of arrows. When you're out of arrows, you can sit down, and make some more, 1 every 10 seconds!

Echoes of TP. When I've spent all my TP, you give them back to me 1TP every day! Oh, wait....

+1 Well Said Sir, I lol'd

[Alanim]

While I don't support echo's of power, I do think it could go nicely on a ranger!(if it could be fit in!)

Echos of power stops at 12 SP
Cure Serious wounds = 12 sp

Echos of power = unlimited heals.

[Bodic]

While I don't support echo's of power, I do think it could go nicely on a ranger!(if it could be fit in!)

Echos of power stops at 12 SP
Cure Serious wounds = 12 sp

Echos of power = unlimited heals.

that said you like taking away the FvS capstone.

[Alanim]

that said you like taking away the FvS capstone.

Yep, It's like giving any class that can cast CSW the FvS capstone, Although this is more like likely better then the FvS capstone(unless they get free metas on it)

Which is why I don't like this change, but if it happens... hey free cure serious wounds :P.

[SynalonEtuul]

Also signed

[Scraap]

While I don't support echo's of power, I do think it could go nicely on a ranger!(if it could be fit in!)

slap on 1-2 levels of cleric, fvs, wiz, or sorc for an explioter-esq setup.

Likely cleric 1/monk 1.
Extra magic feat, small amp (big amp, once they implement the divine side of the elemental splits), infinite healing, high ac, free toughness/stunning fist.

Broken enough to kill echos off yet?

Dunno, maybe it's their (unintentional) answer to all the rest of the 2-level splashes adding on power.

[Alanim]

Oh, wait, echoes of power ISN'T A FEAT!?!?! Oh, well that just makes it all the better! Now I'll have FREE infinite healing on my ranger(although since CSW costs have been halved I've yet to run out of mana in ANY quest on my ranger.)

If I didn't support it when it was a feat I am sure as hell not going to support it when it's 100% free.

[Scraap]

Oh, wait, echoes of power ISN'T A FEAT!?!?! Oh, well that just makes it all the better! Now I'll have FREE infinite healing on my ranger(although since CSW costs have been halved I've yet to run out of mana in ANY quest on my ranger.)

If I didn't support it when it was a feat I am sure as hell not going to support it when it's 100% free.

Nope. Not a feat (or at least not one you actually buy with a slot). Inherent to the 4 studied spellcasting classes.

[thenalim]

/signed, it was a horrible idea from the start, and I was planning to start this thread a few days ago.
Kudos to the thread starter.

[Darkrok]

Yep, It's like giving any class that can cast CSW the FvS capstone, Although this is more like likely better then the FvS capstone(unless they get free metas on it)

Which is why I don't like this change, but if it happens... hey free cure serious wounds :P.

I can confirm that FvS get free meta's on the capstone. So whether it's better on a FvS or not depends on the selected meta's.

As for a ranger or paladin using this, the only way they could do so would be with a level of fvs/clr/wiz/sor. Only those 4 classes get Echoes of Power. I could see some highly abusive healing-amp type builds though that will probably lead to the nerfing of Echoes of Power. I'm thinking here of something like a 15 Paladin/3 Monk/2 Wizard instead of my current build of 15 Paladin/3 Monk/2 Rogue. Wizard gives us an extra feat and some nifty level 1 spells (shield would be nice, exp. retreat would be a nice addition as well). We give up Haste Boost I, 1d6+3 sneak damage, 1 BAB when not using Divine Power, full UMD, and a base level in several skills including trapping/locks/balance/jump/etc.

I wouldn't think of the wizard version as an outstanding leveling build. But to get a 1ap option to boost all wands/scrolls, having never-ending csw's on a heavy healing amp build...man, that would be pretty sweet. Only issue is that you wouldn't have the sp's to fire off a Quickened one - it would have to be non-quickened which can be an issue under heavy fire. You'd also have a hard time no-failing healing scrolls. You'd have about 11 base + 6 to 8 charisma (I'm sitting at 6 in decent gear) + 5 or 6 greensteel (I like 5 for the con-opp) + 3 bunny hat + 2 luck + 4 GH = 31 to 34 depending on charisma tomes/exc. charisma and greensteel choices. You could bridge that gap though with the event trinket fully upgraded (+3 more) and Skill Focus: UMD (+3 more) putting you at 37 at the least with 39 easily reachable.

You lose some more dps on an already crappy dps toon but as far as a solo toon, you'll get even more out of your heal wands/scrolls (thanks to Wizard Wand & Scroll Mastery I), have echoes of power for sp regen to recast your buffs or top off with a CSW, I already carry Extend so the Shield/Exp. Retreat would have a usable 4 minute recast when extended. Just interesting enough to get nerfed.

[Grosbeak07]

/not signed

I don't see EoP as much of anything. As Sig Trent said, it keeps the game fun.

All the mularky about sp management is personal, no one tells you how to use your sp, so don't tell others how to use their.

Casters get some very powerful spells, especially with the Savants, but with power should come a price and while I think cool downs are a better way to go than spell cost increases, I don't think the sp increases were as dramatic as many make them out to be here.

[Requiro]

Remove EoP?
/ not signed

Nerf EoP instead SL-a?
/ signed

Something like: 1 SP / 4 sec or 2 SP / 6 sec or 4 SP / 12 sec.
And bring back old SL-a.

IMO: Best solution?
Remove EoP and replace it by adding Active use on feats: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness

Active use: When you are below 12 SP you can use one of this feat to gain 10-35 SP. Colddown: 60 sec. Can only be activate when you are below 12 SP. Each feat get separate timer.

Idk why Turbine pay someone to develop new tech, and not make something like this…

[Mr.Delightful]

/signed for removal of Echoes of Power because:

1) Existing spell-like abilities and spell costs are being increase due to it (Archmage mm and cm, Scorching ray, probably more to come).

2) Echoes of Power opens the door to further SP regen and cap increases down the road. It currently provides a 4 SP regen every 6 seconds with a 15 SP cap, but it could easily "scale" to level, eventually rendering their blue bar practically meaningless.

3) Echoes of Power grants every caster a free, regenerating sp pool, regardless of their earned gear or casting habits. The Echoes of Power are a set of training wheels grafted onto every caster chassis; training wheels that instead of being removed, will likely grow larger, due to the kind of play they encourage. They will become the crutch of casters, and not the "teaching aid" as perhaps intended.

[Saravis]

/signed for either nerfing it or taking it out altogether.

Devs! I was under the impression you were trying for a progression of becoming more powerful as you leveled. Your current stance on EoP is contradictory to that idea. Nerfing higher level power because of lower level abilities is not supportive of the idea that an arcane becomes more powerful.

So here's my suggestion for nerfing EoP: 1sp/3 seconds, max of 10sp. That means that EoP regenerates a caster to 10 sp every 30 seconds. If you restore the old SLAs, they can only be casted once every 18 seconds on a completely drained caster. It still allows low level arcanes to cast a spell every now and then when OOM, but in no way impacts higher level casters.

[Horrorscope]

This is the problem with it. It will start as 12 sp till everyone gets used to it then it will get an increase to 50 sp, then to 300sp, untill all the challenge of resource management is gone and "you just have to sit around an wait till the blue bar is full then we can complete this dungeon."

The only thing worse the always playing the slippery slope card. Is one playing the "One guy ruins it for the rest of us" card. Your statements remind me too much of real life.

[hityawithastick]

EoP doesn't really upset me that much, but:

/signed to restoring the SLA costs

and

/signed to lowering the cooldowns.

[steelblueskies]

/not signed

I don't see EoP as much of anything. As Sig Trent said, it keeps the game fun.

All the mularky about sp management is personal, no one tells you how to use your sp, so don't tell others how to use their.

Casters get some very powerful spells, especially with the Savants, but with power should come a price and while I think cool downs are a better way to go than spell cost increases, I don't think the sp increases were as dramatic as many make them out to be here.

actually, the spellpass and justification for many of the changes to product and cost, as well as the imposition of eop and subsequent further changes to everything else to balance it, boils down to "someone else telling us how to use our sp" exactly. remember the development work and effort that went into underused spells, so pushing to make them more viable, alongside reducing effectiveness of more commonly used spells to increase variety?

how many miles from that did we drift now?
sorc savants turning them into three spell ponies? then breaking that's power, and now borking everyones expensive specialty line one by one to balance 12 sp every 24 seconds. which might we remind you was one of the reasons to work towards vile blasphemy, or eardweller larvae, which are end game equipment. eardweller could do that indeinitely so long as you had the chance to incubate the larvae, and didn't have a 12 sp cap either.
made warforged versus fleshie a tougher choice if you had one available.

for the sla's its a combination effect. increased cost in sp, increased cost in time between use. output per cast remains the same. cost to acquire remains the same. in one or two cases, rediculously(we are talking terror mind thrust effect rediculously) low dc remains static.

the single most positive and balanced change in this preview has been upping the eternal wands. and that's mostly because they were self limiting o how long they could be used anyway fromt heir fixed dc's and the lack of much to make them better. actually they're op too if you have more then one when starting out. but still balance out when leveling. fixed caster level does that.

[Roaringdragon]

EoP= Quite Frankly useless...

Might as well add in echoes of money...$0.01 per day you play

[kyleann]

?

So weird...I was just talking about this game yesterday. Classics never truly age, do they? That game and Fantasy Empires used to suck up all my time long before Diablo 2 forced me to sell my soul...

Edit: +1 by the way for the memories...

[Kludde]

For those who complain Echoes of power is not DnD how about we limit all spell caster to a number of spells like the table top, lets also instil the actual XP penalties from the table top for multi-classing. maybe I will see less twink character build with 4 levels of one class and 2 levels of EVERY OTHER CLASS.

The trick is it is a MMO version of 3.5 it will not be perfect, that is life deal.

I have not heard this much complaining since the last time a party member TPK'ed, and as DM I just laughed.