Please Remove "Echoes of Power"

[VorpalLaugh]

I liked the idea of EoP but if caused a need for so many rebalances it needs to be looked at more closely. Hades maybe they're doing that right now and everything would be fine before it goes live. (I can dream right!). Has anybody played an Evoc Am with the changes. How about at non epic levels. Maybe the balancing issues come out at lower levels. Me and my wizard who was going to go evoc am are really curios. I have couple are things to ask the forums
1. how do the changes effect other non evoc AMS
2 Could I level an evoc AM to 20 without unwarranted frustration? how about doing all non epic content?

thanks you

[Jaid314]

EoP is really intended for newbies from what I can tell. For high level characters its more of a consolation prize so you can click a button from time to time. Now my healing amp paladin will like it as I can heal a good 60-90 off a clw, but its still nothing that will save my butt when things are going badly. I think its a nice floor for spell casters but I don't see it really altering any expereinced players play style.

your healing amp paladin won't care, because your healing amp paladin won't have it, because your healing amp paladin doesn't have magical training.

[Alexandryte]

I liked the idea of EoP but if caused a need for so many rebalances it needs to be looked at more closely. Hades maybe they're doing that right now and everything would be fine before it goes live. (I can dream right!). Has anybody played an Evoc Am with the changes. How about at non epic levels. Maybe the balancing issues come out at lower levels. Me and my wizard who was going to go evoc am are really curios. I have couple are things to ask the forums
1. how do the changes effect other non evoc AMS
2 Could I level an evoc AM to 20 without unwarranted frustration? how about doing all non epic content?

thanks you

The changes are increasing the cooldown on Chain missiles and Arcane Blast abilities by 2 seconds (up to now 8 seconds) and raising the SP cost of direct damage SLAs by 1-4sp depending on its tier.

If you can look...and come to the same conclusion that those are minor and shouldnt be causing a 5 page mess....then you are fine.

That has literally all anyone has been quibbling over. 2 seconds....and so little of an sp hike that ...you know what...I'm fresh out of zingers.

Thus far the reasoning has been summarily: "This thing...it is new. It is change. I don't like change. This thing must be bad."

Ive honestly yet to hear a GOOD argument that doesn't descend into "Well you must not play X and do ABC like I do. Therefore, your point is invalid" when backed into a corner. Surprisingly enough, I do double check my numbers from various sources (wiki, forums, patch-notes, in-game) before I post. I cross reference it with what the devs have said, implied and also apply basic balancing principles and common sense.

[knightgf]

Well, now that I think about it, Echoes of Power is just a 'last stand' method of offense power for a spellcaster with magical training. I think there's one simple thing that comes to mind when it comes to the SP of a main caster:

You are ALWAYS better off having even 10% of your mana bar in SP than it is to have just mana that regenerates at <12 SP, even if you use the same spells you use when you are <12 SP, so you can recast these spells faster.

That being said, there's no need to nerf the spell cost rates and cooldown times all because echoes of power does something horrible as to regenerate up to 12 sp of your mana.

In a raid situation, let's look at the casters in our raid and see just what would happen if every caster with magical training was on their last stand, meaning they've used up all mana pots, all mana clickies, the bard doesn't have mana regen or discount songs and nobody can get a proc on their torcs or other worthless items:

• Sorcerers would end up using their PrE spells far more often to produce not-as-good and non-metamagiced damage(If metamagics are not free).
• Wizards, in their pale master form, 'could' manage to activate lesser death aura(Level 2 spell with base SP cost of 15 SP) if they manage to hit 11 mana, then have the regen kick in and grant 15 SP. This may allow them to throw off a few of their death effects. However, even with a 95% negative energy boost from superior potency II and enhancements, it would only heal anywhere from 1.95-7.8 HP every 2 seconds, for a total of 84 seconds as a level 20 pale master with no caster level boosts.
  
  • Necrotic blast would need to be cast carefully, because the wizard will always lose hp even with the maximum HP from lesser death aura, unless it crits on a tick. Necrotic bolt would also need to be managed, as there is a chance that the wizard will not heal 5 HP per death aura tick, although it is much more manageable. These factors assume that eardweller and nullification clickies have all been used up.
• Archmage wizards, like sorcerer savants, would resort to their PrE spells, if they invested in purchasing any.
• Clerics and Favored Souls would both end up being able to cast a non-metamagized cure serious wounds, at best. No mass cure spells at all. Favored Souls with the Sovereign Host capstone have the best last resort spells for healing, as they can rapidly heal a individual for free, including metamagics, and fast.

The conclusion? While your offense might be able to finish off a mob if they manage to stay alive and the mob has just a sliver of HP, your defense will suffer greatly, and will most likely wipe if they are on their last limbs, either on low, mid or high levels.

At low levels, with the exception of water savants, and if you count level 9 as a low level instead of a low-medium or medium, the casters who rely on their PrE spells will have to get close to make them land, thus exposing them to a level of danger. This assumes that the casters do not have healing pots and rely solely on the healers in the group. At mid levels, it is a bit worrisome because some spells are ranged single target, others are ranged multi-target. However, the mob's HP are a bit bigger, so it might be able to put off some of the worry. And of course, at high levels, the mobs usually have enough HP that its not much to worry about, and the bosses hit hard enough that echoes of power won't matter. You would need a SP miracle to get through this.

Nerfing Echoes of Power puts you back at square one. I think you guys have nerfed enough already in update 9 as it is. While we can understand your frustration at us players for being picky at what we want, nerfing things blindly in discomfort or rage is a bad idea. The way I see it, release echoes of power and the PrE's without changing cooldown times or PrE SP costs and see what happens. If it's good; leave it as it is: enough SP recovery items exist in game; I was surprised I didn't protest against this. If not, well...look at the SP costs, not the cooldown time.

[Rapagun]

/signed

[Phemt81]

Wow! 6 pages in less than one single day!

Nah, they are just saving that one for when they turn DDO into a turn based game

That would be too much D&D like, no!

What is SLA? And... mind stopping the wild (no one ever write the full words down IIRC AFAIK OASN) acronyme use please? Thanks

[Tirisha]

Wow! 6 pages in less than one single day!



That would be too much D&D like, no!

What is SLA? And... mind stopping the wild (no one ever write the full words down IIRC AFAIK OASN) acronyme use please? Thanks

SLA=Spell like ability *assuming I didn't fail my /sarcasm roll.

[Vengeance777]

/signed

Remove this feat from the game or make it a purchasable feat.

Adjusting SLAs and other spells because of a useless 12 sp regen feat being forced upon me that I will never ever need on my characters is horrible.

Sorcs need the short cooldowns and fast casting time on spells/slas otherwise we're just wizards with low dcs, low spell pen, with an inability to swap spells, for a gain 1.5x spell points.

[BladedThesis]

/signed

[FlyingTurtle]

Keep echoes of power!!!111!!

And also!!

Add echoes of HP. When you reach 10 HP or less, regen 4 HP every 6 seconds until 10% HP!

Add echoes of plat. When you've spent all your plat, regen 1 plat every minute until 1000 plat!

Echoes of arrows. When you're out of arrows, you can sit down, and make some more, 1 every 10 seconds!

Echoes of TP. When I've spent all my TP, you give them back to me 1TP every day! Oh, wait....

[Roaringdragon]

And also!!

Add echoes of HP. When you reach 10 HP or less, regen 4 HP every 6 seconds until 10% HP!

Add echoes of plat. When you've spent all your plat, regen 1 plat every minute until 1000 plat!

Echoes of arrows. When you're out of arrows, you can sit down, and make some more, 1 every 10 seconds!

Echoes of TP. When I've spent all my TP, you give them back to me 50TP(JK) every day! Oh, wait....

^^^^This xD
Although, I /sign that you should not have this stupid thing...12 sp...enough for 1 CLW... and a lot of cost(as in AP and feats and PrE's) to even get it. First of all, not worth it, only useable by people with "magical training" and makes sp management seem not as important as it really is. Look at a lvl 20 sorceror, he'll know about sp management and knows where to put is FW and spells, and who to buff. Unlike that other new lvl 5 sorceror who will wait that 4sp reg every 6 seconds to discover he can use 1 burning hands every 18 seconds. Then to discover at level 5+ all the spells cost wayyy more then 10sp not including meta magics, and a lot more useful then that burning hands, making the lvl 5 sorc think about his sp management alot more when he starts to level...so /Sign all those people who refuse this nonsense...

Also, about the Shade comment above, where every time u get 0 sp you get a popout saying visit the DDO store to refill, IMO I think it makes the people who have money practically win the game...since you basically can get your 3000+ sp on the sorceror back up full with little amount of tp and solo alot more quests, even though its good, I think they should just bring back the SLA and screw EoP and screw the refill option. Since they still make enough money to not have to use that option. *Note: that would be quite annoying on my extremely low sp (1 inch) bar on my warchanter bar...EX: DV Please?, Cleric DV's, yay! one more haste...popup about the refill, ahhhh this thing is so annoying

[Stillwaters]

Keep echoes of power!!!111!!

And also!!

Add echoes of HP. When you reach 10 HP or less, regen 4 HP every 6 seconds until 10% HP!

Add echoes of plat. When you've spent all your plat, regen 1 plat every minute until 1000 plat!

Echoes of arrows. When you're out of arrows, you can sit down, and make some more, 1 every 10 seconds!

Echoes of TP. When I've spent all my TP, you give them back to me 1TP every day! Oh, wait....

+1 I laughed so much my missus thought i was watching porno

[steelblueskies]

The changes are increasing the cooldown on Chain missiles and Arcane Blast abilities by 2 seconds (up to now 8 seconds) and raising the SP cost of direct damage SLAs by 1-4sp depending on its tier.

If you can look...and come to the same conclusion that those are minor and shouldnt be causing a 5 page mess....then you are fine.

That has literally all anyone has been quibbling over. 2 seconds....and so little of an sp hike that ...you know what...I'm fresh out of zingers.

Thus far the reasoning has been summarily: "This thing...it is new. It is change. I don't like change. This thing must be bad."

Ive honestly yet to hear a GOOD argument that doesn't descend into "Well you must not play X and do ABC like I do. Therefore, your point is invalid" when backed into a corner. Surprisingly enough, I do double check my numbers from various sources (wiki, forums, patch-notes, in-game) before I post. I cross reference it with what the devs have said, implied and also apply basic balancing principles and common sense.

being in the process of tr'ing a wizard>wizard on live, and having spent some time in lam build 1 doing the same before taking next level(thoon granted exp to 20 during event)- i played with both evo am abilities, and the am general force abilities.

i already spoke elsewhere on levels below 5 or so, and greataxe, or even wands being massively superior to sp pool casting in most situations, but no slas that low a level soo.

magic missile for 1 sp. with free metamagics. you rely on this . soloing especially. you should never be running out of gas because of how you rely on this. the long cd versus regular mm is a pain, but worth the patience. add in regular mm or wiz plf mm for spamming rapid fire on rednames.

finally get to a level with arcane bolt? take it. it's great at about that level with evo focus. helps fill a speedier spam rotation. better on lam then live as range and following are in place, so less missing.

almost immediately after the level you get it, the mobs *saving* for null damage starts making mm more reliable damage. this holds until you get persistent aoes. then you use those, and possibly supplement with sla spam. aoes eat sp, and suddenly you risk oom situations. echoes helps here, but if you needed more oomph vs time (ie dps) in the first place, you are going to remain in trouble.

as leveling continues, and mob saves rise, the general am bolt and blast become more and more of a liability. in theory with both evo foci, and a double evo focus item you *might* be able to make them reliable enough to compete with evo mm sla, and chain missile sla. i doubt it, given the lack of a save on the missile variants versus bolts . not to mention improved tracking is not the same as the "have to work to generate a miss" of the missile spells. so yeah i could see upping the cost or cooldown on mm sla, or chainmissile sla, but not for one moment on arcane bolt and blast. they really really don't justify themselves well as anything more then gambling on a non evocation focused mage, and even on one feel like too much of a gamble for their sp cost.

so it is my impression that they are not exactly a runaway train with echoes at lower levels either.
in fact even with the highest force line available at each point testing, on live or lam, the dungeon scaling going away by being in party made them all less of a kill method then a kill steal method. very good at taking last slivers, not so much at full unscaled health pools before a team of melee can whittle them to dust.

[Phemt81]

SLA=Spell like ability *assuming I didn't fail my /sarcasm roll.

You rolled a 20! critical success, you gain a +1 to your reputation

Add echoes of plat. When you've spent all your plat, regen 1 plat every minute until 1000 plat!

Echoes of arrows. When you're out of arrows, you can sit down, and make some more, 1 every 10 seconds!

Echoes of TP. When I've spent all my TP, you give them back to me 1TP every day! Oh, wait....

ROFLMFAO (in the sky)

[Antheal]

Keep echoes of power!!!111!!

And also!!

Add echoes of HP. When you reach 10 HP or less, regen 4 HP every 6 seconds until 10% HP!

Add echoes of plat. When you've spent all your plat, regen 1 plat every minute until 1000 plat!

Echoes of arrows. When you're out of arrows, you can sit down, and make some more, 1 every 10 seconds!

Echoes of TP. When I've spent all my TP, you give them back to me 1TP every day! Oh, wait....

It's called Diehard.

How will anyone spend all of their plat?

It's called Arcane Archer.

That what 100 favor runs are for.

We need an Echoes of Melee, where... oh, wait, it's called Master's Touch.

[Dawnsfire]

EoP is really intended for newbies from what I can tell. For high level characters its more of a consolation prize so you can click a button from time to time. Now my healing amp paladin will like it as I can heal a good 60-90 off a clw, but its still nothing that will save my butt when things are going badly. I think its a nice floor for spell casters but I don't see it really altering any expereinced players play style.

Echos of Power requires the free feat Magical Training to activate according to the release notes. I am pretty sure Paladins do not get that feat. So I do not think your paladin like it

[krogyy]

That has literally all anyone has been quibbling over. 2 seconds....and so little of an sp hike that ...you know what...I'm fresh out of zingers.

a mere 2 sec more is 33% cooldown time added, or if you prefer 25% less dps contribution from the sla.
it IS significant.

[QuantumFX]

Echos of Power requires the free feat Magical Training to activate according to the release notes. I am pretty sure Paladins do not get that feat. So I do not think your paladin like it

He splashed a level of sorc on his paladin.

[Dawnsfire]

He splashed a level of sorc on his paladin.

Consider me corrected then

[bryanmeerkat]

Echoes of power dosent need removing but the Devs need to understand that the majority of people who understand playing with a blue bar will not shoot there wad in the first room so that they can run along on echoes of power .
If people are like me having 12 spellpoints left at any point will mean I have done something very wrong throughout the quest . ( although now it will just be because all my cheap spells are no longer viable) Its the expensive stuff that is splashed into the cheap stuff that keeps me going (firewalls and reconstruct ) but if i want to keep a stream of average ( at best ) dps now i have to wait until I have used all my spellpoints to make it effecient .