Please Remove "Echoes of Power"

[SableShadow]

Echoes of Power was just a convenient scapegoat.

Well, "to fix lag" was getting a little old.

[ckorik]

/signed

I don't have an issue with the 12 sp thing myself - I do have issues when massive (and they are very substantial) changes are made to other parts of the game because of a new ability that shouldn't have any affect.

[Alexandryte]

Can you tell me how you can cast a 25 base SP cost firewall with echoes of power (which, incidentally, only puts you up back to 12 SP max)? The only spells you'll be likely to use are non meta'd low level buffs or the SLAs.

You failed your sarcasm check. That was exactly the point I was making.

I don't know if it's just me, but I can tell you what the playstyle of my sorc is not going to be. He is not going to be the type of caster that blows his whole bar as fast as he can, and then waits every 12 seconds to get 12 SP back so he can reap the rewards of SLA spells and 10 SP haste.

If you play smart, you will not need to use SP pots. Honestly, if you are soloing on a caster on almost any non-epic quest, you will easily get through the whole quest while having SP over (in fact on my sorc I can complete most quests without even shrining). For epic quests in the current state of the game, they are way too easy because of mass hold, and there should be absolutely no reason to use SP pots. You can solo them too.

Exactly. Solo is one beast. Working with 1d5 other people and trying not to kill each other....thats entirely a different animal.

You shouldn't be running out of SP when geared very well, specced very well, playing very well, and playing with others cooperatively.

However...if Murphies law has taught anything its that the above seldom holds true forever. Random chance has three sides: hurt, help, or indifferent. The likelihood of maintaining help indefinitely is slim. And now you have some tools to help balance things out if you use your head.

[talyor]

So.....basically what you are saying is....you only want the parts that increase player power....and to just ignore the rest.

Balance be damned?

Cooldowns are on INSTANT DEATH ABILITIES and SUPER LOW COST ABILITIES AFFECTED BY META-MAGICS.

You don't see a problem with high damage/death abilities having no cooldown? Or super cheap powerful abilities that can be cast until the sun goes down not having a (reasonable) cooldown?

For both cases: Why bring melee along? You can just nuke/instakill the **** outta things faster than a Barb can.
Why bother using other spells if you have 1) spells (plural) that instantly kill and 2) super SP efficient high damage spells?

You aren't being nerfed because of EoP....your abilities are being adjusted because they were out of line. When a caster only uses at max 6-7 direct damage spells (and that was highballing it considerably) out of a potential 32-45 spell slots there is a problem. When instant death abilities reign supreme on non-red-named or lower, is it really a choice to slot them?

NO what we are talking about in this thread (the SLA's) Eladrin specifically said they were changed because of Echoes of Power!!! I personally was fine with the spell pass and thought it would add alot of versatility to the casting world i just was not for giving free spell points forever and changing the cost and cool down on the the spells that could be used by the Echoes of Power. I have lost alot more spell points and spell use than I get from having the echoes of power.

[Engar1]

/signed

If all this collateral damage cites this nanny buff as the cause then it must go. Upsetting half the paying players out there in repeated desperate attempts to lure in a few more free to play testers is foolish and costly each time. I hope those lifetime memberships do not prove significantly shorter after U9.

[Cyr]

You aren't being nerfed because of EoP....your abilities are being adjusted because they were out of line. When a caster only uses at max 6-7 direct damage spells (and that was highballing it considerably) out of a potential 32-45 spell slots there is a problem. When instant death abilities reign supreme on non-red-named or lower, is it really a choice to slot them?

a) The poster specified SLA's. Not instant death abilities.
b) Cool downs have gone up on SLA's.
c) So have costs.
d) Eladrin stated that it was due to Echoes of Power.

[Cyr]

Well, "to fix lag" was getting a little old.

Nah, they are just saving that one for when they turn DDO into a turn based game

[Bago]

If there is indeed a choice between Echoes of Power or un-nerfed wizard SLAs at this time, I would much prefer un-nerfed SLAs.

[Dawnsfire]

You aren't being nerfed because of EoP....

Not quite. In the thread about boosting sp costs for SLAs (that would be here.) Eladrin replied:

That's correct.

In response to:

Balancing for Echoes of Power would be my guess.

So I would say you are misinformed on at least that point.

[Alexandryte]

Eladrin specifically said that the archmage SLAs were changed due to EoP so your argument holds NO water. And as for only using 6-7 spells out of a list, no matter what the list is the playerbase will use whatever is most effective - they could make a spell that is called Fleeble's Narfling of the Garthok, and if it does better damage than other spells of a comparable level, or has better efficiency, it will be used. My point is whatever is best is what will be used. Whether it is 50% better or 5% better, it will be used.

The cost change? Yes. That is what Eladrin was referring to for EoP.
Is a super low cost ability still super low cost? Yes? Then it still will be used.

The cooldown change? That was going to happen whether or not EoP came out. They want you to actually use those other spells in the spell book. They want you to actually put some strain on your resources. They want you to interweave SLAs (while they are on cooldown) with your normal spells.

And lastly the point of 6-7 spells was that if one spell or two completely dominates and there is absolutely no reason for any of the others.....then that is a design problem. Altering cooldowns (time) and SP costs (resources) are a sensible solution to such a problem. It forces a choice. You can either wait (time) or expend (resources) but you do not get the best of both worlds.

[SableShadow]

Nah, they are just saving that one for when they turn DDO into a turn based game

?

[Alexandryte]

And on a final note:

If a change from 6 seconds to 8 seconds is really causing so much angst.....methinks you are doing it wrong.

The point of the cooldown is to create the following desired behavior:
Casters using normal spells and expending SP.

If the cooldown is not sufficient to encourage this behavior:
Raise the cooldown until the desired behavior becomes more prevalent.



Shockingly, the same holds true for the SP cost increase. They want EoP as a bottom catch but they dont want people relying on it entirely. Both the SP and cooldown chances enforce this.


Though I must say...I'm pleasantly surprised on how civil everyone is being in the thread despite its hot button nature.

[Kralael]

/signed

[Dawnsfire]

The point of the cooldown is to create the following desired behavior:
Casters using normal spells and expending SP.

If the cooldown is not sufficient to encourage this behavior:
Raise the cooldown until the desired behavior becomes more prevalent.

I don't particularly like this answer. I think it is pretty obvious that most of us find, like and play certain games because they like to play them a certain way. I came to DDO because this particular game is extremely flexible in both gameplay and character builds. Your comment that the Devs should continue to change things until the players give in and play in a certain way is the absolute worst attitude that Turbine could take.

The idea that should be behind SLAs (IMHO) is that players have an optional set of tools to play with in exchange for permanently sacrificing sp for them. If they want to try to solo the entire leveling experience with them (good luck with that) then let them try. The last thing anyone should be doing is to try to push someone in to a cookie cutting 'my way or the highway' cookie cutter mold. If unlimited SLA spells are too powerful for the quests as designed then the quests need to be revamped or the SLAs replaced with something the game can handle.

My only request for the Devs is that they not attempt to nerf us all 'until the desired behavior becomes more prevalent'.

[steelblueskies]

/signed to remove echoes.

/double-signed or more if the spellpass re-balance goes on from a non echoes perspective once its removed.


eternal wands getting a buff is great for lowbies up to and slightly beyond the 5-10 range. even on live they can be leveraged for better speed then the wait on regen would allow.

with the enhanced regen they are the route for low level toons to spamcast, instead of greataxe. and best of all the wands stop having any effect (save eternal magic missile, but the damage output and cast time is sloow) beyond around level 14 due to weak dc's even with all four enhancements to both effect and wand dc boost.

in other words they already self limit whereas echoes does not.

noting the lack of outcry against the new eternal wands, and the frankly p.i.t.a. change cycle to balance against echoes- echoes has got to go.

1-its not in line( remember your fears of people standing around regenerating sp between combats, this is slow enough to force that anyway for poor effect where it would apply).

2-it's a powerful effect as it stood, the sort of thing only available from hard to obtain end game gear(vile blasphemy, dweller larvae, other) being given free with zero opportunity cost.

3-you are breaking other things to balance around it. this forces either exploit the change or suffer. running out of gas and being stuck means one hasn't prepared, one has been inefficient and is a learning experience, one that gets remembered as its either, wipe or restart, or struggle panic to survive 'til a refill point. this heightens memory of the experience and tends toward learning via harsh lesson.

4-you haven't put level appropriate sp bars on all caster monsters yet, they cannot run out of gas. so they won't benefit from it.

5- you refuse to level cap the ability and thus are stuck balancing against it everywhere.

*if preferential sla spam didn't require a specialized feat setup(either base or to be reliable, bad cooldown and dc on live for the am general force sla pair, everything else requires feats, both for sorc pre on lam, or wizard pre lines) then you people talking about spell spam of the same type might have a point. when one has to spend quite a bit to buy the spells, you do so for a good reason, not willy nilly. and so you use them more heavily because that's why you got them.

make them general spells everyone has and see more rotation between the best of all the cheap abilities, and wind up with general nerfs.(hey wait, this is pretty much the spellpass so far, just add free meta's to everything and we would have it exactly!)

there will ALWAYS ALWAYS BE A BEST OPTION. cheap fast or good. pick at most two. ever hear that one? thats what they keep goofing with, those three elements. content will determine which is best in general throughout a hundred plus quests. human behavior will demand fast/good as time investment elements. game mechanics demand cheap as overkill happens, misses happen, misfire sp eating (phasing/burrowing/ran past you, or behind an object, soft targeting and player ran across targeting reticle borking cast location, mob ran out of range, etc).

[azrael4h]

Well, "to fix lag" was getting a little old.

This just in:

Players will be leashed and branded "in order to improve morale".

[Alexandryte]

I don't particularly like this answer. I think it is pretty obvious that most of us find, like and play certain games because they like to play them a certain way. I came to DDO because this particular game is extremely flexible in both gameplay and character builds. Your comment that the Devs should continue to change things until the players give in and play in a certain way is the absolute worst attitude that Turbine could take.

The idea that should be behind SLAs (IMHO) is that players have an optional set of tools to play with in exchange for permanently sacrificing sp for them. If they want to try to solo the entire leveling experience with them (good luck with that) then let them try. The last thing anyone should be doing is to try to push someone in to a cookie cutting 'my way or the highway' cookie cutter mold. If unlimited SLA spells are too powerful for the quests as designed then the quests need to be revamped or the SLAs replaced with something the game can handle.

My only request for the Devs is that they not attempt to nerf us all 'until the desired behavior becomes more prevalent'.

Like you said...they are tools. They should not be the "be all end all" like firewall was.

The irony is without such changes you would be "push(ing) someone in to a cookie cutting 'my way or the highway' cookie cutter mold"

The greater irony is that you agree with me on the same exact points but look in the opposite direction.
You seem to imply that doing XYZ or ABC or any combination therein is bad whereas the current state of just doing X or Y every few seconds is better.

Firewall pre-instadeath spells was king. The end.
Post instadeath spells....wail and finger reign. On things that cannot be set ablaze or killed instantly most casters have 2-3 other spells slotted to use.

Since those were getting adjusted people then turned to SLAs with maybe some other spells occasionally thrown in.

The changes U9 brings, as a whole, shake up that monotony.


So basically it boils down to this: 2 extra seconds and a slight SP hike on SLAs, no damage based SLAs, or SLA's become very nice but very limited use. Which would you prefer?

[Killdaelf]

The only SLAs useful with echoes are the CC ones, one fireball every 8 seconds is pretty pointless in endgame content

So definitely
/signed

[Khumbaaba]

/signed

[sigtrent]

/not signed

EOP is fine

Characters should be able to maintain single target damage of some kind no matter their class so they always have something fun to do in combat.

I don't like the changes to archmage cheap spells, but on the whole I don't find them very significant either.