Finesse ... how do they plan to fix this now?

[WangChi]

So now how close are they?
Are they worth +3 to 5 AC, better reflex saves, and non-clicky/spell/buff intensive to-hit and damage?
The answer is Yes.
The difference wouldn't be large enough to even *want* to swap gear, drink pots, hit clickies, etc.

Calebro makes a really really good point in one of his earlier posts. No single stat, regardless of how high you can get it, should single handedly control to-hit, damage, AC, and any saving throw.

[Chai]

So now how close are they?
Are they worth +3 to 5 AC, better reflex saves, and non-clicky/spell/buff intensive to-hit and damage?
The answer is Yes.
The difference wouldn't be large enough to even *want* to swap gear, drink pots, hit clickies, etc.

Madstone boots not sustainable? You can have quite a few of them on the same hotbar....

As for the titan gloves, There are many other things I can use to make up for those. Past life rages, potions

And yes, people ARE willing to use clickies / potions all throughout this game. Saying potions and boat buffs are absurd makes me want to use them even more.

I used to run a dex build drow assassin, and it got to the point where I could buff my str to be better than my dex, which was ~40. There was no need to have weapon finesse at that point. That also opens up use of weapons that are only str for to-hit.

[Chai]

Calebro makes a really really good point in one of his earlier posts. No single stat, regardless of how high you can get it, should single handedly control to-hit, damage, AC, and any saving throw.

I agree. This is why some games use dex for to hit and str for damage, and have a separate agility type stat for dodging and reflex type saves. D&D has been riding this whole "using str for to-hit and damage" thing for 30+ years now though.

[Alexandryte]

Calebro makes a really really good point in one of his earlier posts. No single stat, regardless of how high you can get it, should single handedly control to-hit, damage, AC, and any saving throw.

Agreed....all things equal.

They aren't though.

AC means little as do reflex saves by end game. Its just merely a contest btw the healers, Heal, and the lag monster when it rears its ugly head.

Fix AC and saves to be wanted/useful and part of the problem vanishes as well.

The reason we were pushing for dex to damage as a feat is because it is simple and can be tested in-house and on mournlands and lamania easily. Fixing AC and saves is a tricker game because it touches many different areas and subsystems.

Is dex to some form of damage the best alternative? No...but it is the cheapest and quickest.

[Memek]

Is dex to some form of damage the best alternative? No...but it is the cheapest and quickest.

Im curious... If you wanted to do high damage, WHY would you roll a Finesse build in the first place?
Noone forced you to go Finesse. Yes, it's easier while levelling up but everyone should be aware that there is a trade-off when going for it.

I dont roll a Wizard with 8 starting Int and then complain that i cant land spells.
Exactly WHY should dexxers gain the same damage as Strength builds?

[Alexandryte]

Im curious... If you wanted to do high damage, WHY would you roll a Finesse build in the first place?
Noone forced you to go Finesse. Yes, it's easier while levelling up but everyone should be aware that there is a trade-off when going for it.

I dont roll a Wizard with 8 starting Int and then complain that i cant land spells.
Exactly WHY should dexxers gain the same damage as Strength builds?

Not looking for high damage.

Looking for a fix that justifies DEX builds now that allows DEX builds to be in the same state as the ballpark of strength.

(TRANSLATION: Looking for marginally competitive rather than no where close)


Thinking about it....you know what would also do it? Raising the req bar on TWF and THF so double dipping didn't occur as much. Its more of the cross-mesh of STR based TWFs that are throwing things off.

[Memek]

(TRANSLATION: Looking for marginally competitive rather than no where close)

They are now; I dont understand why you would think that a Finesse build isnt "marginally competitive" just because he does like 3 damage less per swing.

Granting Dex to damage would make Finesse builds overpowered.

No doubt, if one starts a Finesse build with 6 Strength he is rather hosed, but that isnt a problem of the rules but of one's character building.

Melee does damage, melee needs Strength for that; You dont see Wizards demanding that their DCs should run on Dex if they take Finesse. And why? Because Wizards tend to not dump Int, thinking that going all out in Dex and closing their eyes will somehow cure their flaw.

[donfilibuster]

I always felt the one major error D&D carried through all editions and incarnations is not making dex the to-hit stat and str the damage stat, for everything.

This is the way it is in real life. I know quite a few weapon forms and regardless of size or weight of the weapon, from double daggers to guan dao pole arms, uncoordinated individuals would NOT be able to be proficient using them.

This is a common assumption, being trained is indeed the most effective way to use a weapon but doesn't mean that a non-trained person can't kill another with a heavy object.
Nowadays people know better and won't face a trained person but on past ages this wasn't the case.
Soldiers were barely trained and a big stick and muscle was as good as anything.
In D&D most creatures go by muscle and bludgeon, specially giants, they are clumsy but not avoiding the clubbing shall hurt.

D&D is not deep into martial arts, staves are light enough to deal deadly force in RL but not even D&D monks are of that kind.
Swords were the first weapons that couldn't be used without training in RL, yet still depends on muscle not agility.
Under D&D weapons system this falls into the 'proficiency' category.
In RL many weapons were chosen because their ease of training, as opposed to martial arts where weapons depend on precision and speed.

It's just apples to oranges. A swordsman can be opposed by a farmer with a sickle, a mason with a hammer, a lumberjack with an axe, as long as the wielder is strong enough to avoid losing momentum, agility has no place in that fight.
If you are weak not only you won't land the strikes, but the swing will leave you open for the counter and get you killed.
Medieval age commoners knew how to use their tools at least for defense.
Only by time of the reinassance the 'advanced' weapons got widespread, and as such the fencing blades and the katanas have no place in D&D unless the campaing is that modern (this is explained in the DMG).

[Emili]

AC means little as do reflex saves by end game. Its just merely a contest btw the healers, Heal, and the lag monster when it rears its ugly head.

Fix AC and saves to be wanted/useful and part of the problem vanishes as well.

AC at it's highest levels does bear some wieght in end game, and I know for a fact reflex save plays a roll on my ranger while standing in eVoN 6 she saves near every djinni bolt - and she's a str ranger (Str 36 dex 30 standing)...

Yet you have to figure this ... if it were possible to entirely widdle one stat down to a does-it-all, AC/Reflex save and add "to-hit" and damage on top of it... seems like a lot in one basket. The only thing missing from DDO from DnD in such respects is initiative roll dex affects ... otherwise DDO plays the same at high levels as any over-board-loot and over-magic'd campaign - AC always falls by the wayside as the levels go up too high in all DnD envirnments. As such I could possibly see some % double-strike being added to finesse but outright + to damage mod unless it did not count any str damage bonus' , buff or even feat such as PA at all.

btw... I still have a few finesse based melee.

[SableShadow]

You dont see Wizards demanding that their DCs should run on Dex if they take Finesse. And why? Because Wizards tend to not dump Int, thinking that going all out in Dex and closing their eyes will somehow cure their flaw.

You're right; they do the opposite, dumping dex and taking Insightful Reflexes.

Granting Dex to damage would make brokenly high AC builds overpowered.

Made a tweak in red, since I think that's what we're really talking about here. No one cares whether a Fighter or Rogue with middlin' AC is using dex for damage instead of Str even if it gives him a scary reflex save in the process; it's the "untouchables" in the corner cases we're interested in, right?

Heck, just make a different feat that caps the AC contribution from your dex, since you're spending more energy trying to land blows than dodge them.

Although I do like Emili's idea on double-strikes and some of the other stuff floating round in the "make dex useful" thread.

[Alexandryte]

They are now; I dont understand why you would think that a Finesse build isnt "marginally competitive" just because he does like 3 damage less per swing.

Granting Dex to damage would make Finesse builds overpowered.

No doubt, if one starts a Finesse build with 6 Strength he is rather hosed, but that isnt a problem of the rules but of one's character building.

Melee does damage, melee needs Strength for that; You dont see Wizards demanding that their DCs should run on Dex if they take Finesse. And why? Because Wizards tend to not dump Int, thinking that going all out in Dex and closing their eyes will somehow cure their flaw.

STR only

03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone
02 Morale - Rage Spell
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves

More than +7 from this alone

Still able to get at least 18 str with 15 in dex by doing TWF STR based
meaning 23 STR by 20 (mod +6) same as a STR based anything build
Can live without Oversized

Dex based 18 (to reach the same base to-hit)
23 Dex at 20, STR will most likely not be at 15
Requires additional feat Finesse
Will not hit as high +to hit bonus
May be forced to deactivate power attack situation and debuff pending
Since str will not be 15 will be greater than 7 + base damage die of ...hmm

Interesting...
(Different tangential but related topic came to mind)

I concede from debate on this particular point.

(However using a caster was not a perfect mirror...wizards don't have the option of switching their primary attack stat)

[Emili]

STR only

03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone
02 Morale - Rage Spell
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves

More than +7 from this alone

Still able to get at least 18 str with 15 in dex by doing TWF STR based
meaning 23 STR by 20 (mod +6) same as a STR based anything build
Can live without Oversized

Dex based 18 (to reach the same base to-hit)
23 Dex at 20, STR will most likely not be at 15
Requires additional feat Finesse
Will not hit as high +to hit bonus
May be forced to deactivate power attack situation and debuff pending
Since str will not be 15 will be greater than 7 + base damage die of ...hmm

Interesting...
(Different tangential but related topic came to mind)

I concede from debate on this particular point.

(However using a caster was not a perfect mirror...wizards don't have the option of switching their primary attack stat)

A point however to be made is ... a melee with standing str 40 dex 24 strength becomes (+22 damage) and there is nothing stopping you from having PA and those clickies and buffs on a str 24 dex 40 flip side dex build (+14 damage)... Is just a diff of 8 and so if finesse added damage you could end up with the later achieving ultra-high/ultra-save with barely anything given up compared to the Str build...

[Memek]

Made a tweak in red, since I think that's what we're really talking about here. No one cares whether a Fighter or Rogue with middlin' AC is using dex for damage instead of Str even if it gives him a scary reflex save in the process; it's the "untouchables" in the corner cases we're interested in, right?

Yes and no. I'd sign that AC breaks down in some of the end game, namely Epics (note that AC is very useful in the other, arguably FAR more difficult high end content - and that in fact, AC has always trivialized this branch of the content, and this is why we are seeing so much Dev hate for it - because it trivializes everything it works on)...

For levelling up, there is no comparison - Dex has it better. Slightly less damage, too little to worry about, and in addition with the guild buffs basically untouchable AC where-ever you go.

STR only

03 Profane - Epic Set

Personally i dont like calculating with Epic gear because for the majority of the character's life time, he'll be without it and hunting for that gear.
Of course you can still keep playing him once he has aquired that gear but you spent so much time getting it that i think the point above will still stand.
And eventually, better gear will come out. (And btw, i can think of better slot layouts than blowing 3 slots for +3 Strength.)

02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone

Madstone does have trade-offs. No UMDing scrolls, no light side finishers, no casting spells. How many raids do you think have been solo'd with Madstone running? How many parties have been saved from near-wipe-situations with Madstone running? How many heroes have been made while under Madstone?

None, i would guess.
Yes, Madstone adds a bit of Strength and Con and it has its place, but it doesnt make heroes. Instead, it produces excuses "Oops, sorry, im madstoned".
"Would if i could toss you a rez scroll, but hey, the 'buff' triggered"... and we're all gonna wipe.

Yes, it is a sustainable Strength buff but it absolutely comes at a cost.

Personally, i think my Strength based Monk is more useful giving the -25% mana buff and +2 attack and saves buff than with +1 dmg/+1 attack.

02 Morale - Rage Spell

Yes, this is the big and sustainable one without downsides.

06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves

Not sustainable.