Finesse ... how do they plan to fix this now?

[kcru]

Here's an idea... Finess is a toggle that gets turned on. When on, damage mod to Str is 1/2 of normal (or maybe even 0?), but you get 2 attempts to hit... higher value is actually used. (yes, this means twice as likely to crit, etc, but for smaller values)

[Drfirewater79]

Okay, how about something like the Ranger Dilettante feat? Where Weapon Finesse is Dexterity Modifier=Attack Bonus and 2 points of your Dexterity Modifier added to damage. Then you can take Improved Finesse 1-X to give it more points of your Dexterity mod to damage as enhancements.

That might be the best solution ... just add a feat called improved finesse make it a bonus feat option for monks and fighters (only ones who get melee bonus feats as i understand it) but take able as a seperate feat (like most others) with the pre-req being finesse feat and base dex 17 bab 6 -

that would make it balanced .. sure it means two feats but it will balance itself off in the long run if they make AC worth a licked cent in the future.

[Drfirewater79]

You are skipping over the real problem although you mentioned it. The real problem is that currently sacrificing any DPS for AC is self-gimping. This is the problem. It has nothing to do with finesse or monk ki; it has everything to do with making AC useful again, and thereby rebalancing all of your issues in one shot.

Any other solution is just an overly complicated bandaid ignoring the real issue.

Sadly bandaids are all turbine ever does anyway.

They break stuff then band aid it the break it again then band aid it ... then are forced to completely destroy the combat system and flow of the game to rebalance only to band aid and break it over and over again.

Its been an on going cycle of this same **** for years... most of us have just realized its better to ask for a band aid that makes sense then actually suggest real fixes which never make it into the game. Band aids at least make it in the game from time to time.

Originally Posted by WangChi View Post
Adding an enhancement line with weapon finesse as a prereq would be great for rangers/rogues/bards/monks. Something like:

Finesse Strike I: Cost 2AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add 15% of your dexterity modifier to damage.

Finesse Strike II: Cost 4AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, Finesse Strike I, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add an additional 15% of your dexterity modifier to damage for a total of 30%.

Finesse Strike III: Cost 6AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, Finesse Strike II, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add an additional 15% of your dexterity modifier to damage for a total of 45%.

Finesse Strike IV: Cost 8AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, Finesse Strike III, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add an additional 30% of your dexterity modifier to damage for a total of 75%.

In this example, for a total of 20AP, finesse fighters can now add decent DPS, at the cost of a lot of other enhancements. 20AP goes a long way.

the problem with that is monks are already over welmed with AP costs ... same with fighters really. Especially if they are intimidate fighters which are the only ones who take AC focuses right now anyway (though many have chosen to go str based anyway).

It makes far more sense to make it a single feat.

[Chai]

I always felt the one major error D&D carried through all editions and incarnations is not making dex the to-hit stat and str the damage stat, for everything.

This is the way it is in real life. I know quite a few weapon forms and regardless of size or weight of the weapon, from double daggers to guan dao pole arms, uncoordinated individuals would NOT be able to be proficient using them.

As it stands in DDO, RIP weapon finesse.

I put this into another thread, but I will also post it here.

Half-Orc 20:

20 Base - Creation
05 Base - Level ups (4,8,12,16,20)
02 Race - Half-Orc Enhancement
02 Inherant - +2 Tome
07 Enchantment - Epic Red Dragon Helm or Brawling Gloves
03 Exceptional - +1 and +2 bonuses on the Encrusted ToD Ring
03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone
02 Untyped - Yugoloth Potion
02 Artifact - +2 Strength Ship Buff
02 Store - DDO Store Potion
02 Morale - Rage Spell
03 Alchemical - House D Potion
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves
-------------------------------------
63 - str build.

Now lets say you rolled up that half orc as 16 str (never paying more than 1/1 point for point) and a higher dex, then put all level ups into dex. Thats 9 points of str you would lose, leaving you at a fully self buffed measly 54 points of str, on a rogue, bard, or ranger, LOL. If you rolled up a dwarf you would lose 4 more points putting your "dex build" at an even 50 str.

If people try and tell you that this is unrealistic, unsustainable, etc, ask them to build a 54 dex build with less sacrifice. There are also MORE ways to buff str, but these are the most sustainable. You could have it to 70 on a rogue or bard, np, for the entire time it takes to beat down a devil boss.

Turbine has put in so many stackable ways to buff str that finesse is obsolete once you reach high level and attain a few gear items and some favor for potions. Spend that feat elsewhere.

[WangChi]

Turbine has put in so many stackable ways to buff str that finesse is obsolete once you reach high level and attain a few gear items and some favor for potions. Spend that feat elsewhere.

Sadly - Finesse is obsolete throughout the entire game. Strength outpaces Dexterity from day 1 (divine power/rage/etc). I foolishly created a dex based ranger w/finesse as my first toon. I rerolled before making it off korthos to a strength based rogue/fighter. It really doesn't matter what kind of toon you use, if you start with more than a 15 dex (TWF), you wasted ability points. If I were making an S&B or a THF toon, I wouldn't even spend an ability point in dex. Leave it at 8 or 10 (12 if you have the extra points) it's a waste to put anything in it unless you are going TWF.

[Chai]

Sadly - Finesse is obsolete throughout the entire game. Strength outpaces Dexterity from day 1 (divine power/rage/etc). I foolishly created a dex based ranger w/finesse as my first toon. I rerolled before making it off korthos to a strength based rogue/fighter. It really doesn't matter what kind of toon you use, if you start with more than a 15 dex (TWF), you wasted ability points. If I were making an S&B or a THF toon, I wouldn't even spend an ability point in dex. Leave it at 8 or 10 (12 if you have the extra points) it's a waste to put anything in it unless you are going TWF.

There are AC builds that put some investment into DEX which have ended up in the accomplishment forum soloing VOD or sins elite etc. But yeah, you are right, if you are willing to use consumables every few minutes, which can be done easily enough on the move, then finesse is a thing of the past. TWF can pick up khopesh in place of it, and THF just dumps dex.

Office pool - what is the next off the wall bonus adjective they will put in for strength? Profane was the last one, and its a hilarious adjective for a stacking str bonus. "I have 82 @#$%& strength man!!!" PROFANE, YEAH!!!

[grodon9999]

Office pool - what is the next off the wall bonus adjective they will put in for strength? Profane was the last one, and its a hilarious adjective for a stacking str bonus. "I have 82 @#$%& strength man!!!" PROFANE, YEAH!!!

My money's on "Ludicrous." Anything above that and they go to plaid . . .

[WangChi]

the problem with that is monks are already over welmed with AP costs ... same with fighters really. Especially if they are intimidate fighters which are the only ones who take AC focuses right now anyway (though many have chosen to go str based anyway).

It makes far more sense to make it a single feat.

Agreed.

The enhancement line I suggested was not a replacement for fixing AC and Finesse as a feat, they were in addition to fixing AC and finesse to allow a finesse build the ability to gain damage from their dex bonus while taking away from other enhancements (obviously the costs could be adjusted, etc).

I think most builds, especially the TWF/multi-class builds, are so feat starved (except for big fighter splashes maybe), that adding an improved finesse feat is the same as saying "You are a fool if you take this, but here it is if you want it."

Between TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC:P, OTWF (not necessarily needed, but nice at lower levels), Toughness, Stunning Blow, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization...how/where does one fit in Weapon Finesse and Improved Weapon Finesse?

I tried to go the "Spring Attack" route with my rogue/fighter - wow did that ruin my damage. I wasted 3 feats for a measly attack bonus while running, and just to make up for the loss in damage I had to run around with power attack on constantly, which killed the attack bonus gained from spring attack in the first place. Total waste.

Until AC is right and dex mods are more plentiful - that's what Weapon Finesse will remain, a total waste.

[WangChi]

My money's on "Ludicrous." Anything above that and they go to plaid . . .

"We can't stop, we have to slow down first. BULL****, STOP THIS THING NOW!!" - I love that movie.

The whole strength stacking issue has already reached a point of total insanity.

Wait...there it is..."Insane Bonus: This item grants a +6 insane bonus to strength, which causes a -6 insane penalty to _________"

[SableShadow]

Wait...there it is..."Insane Bonus: This item grants a +6 insane bonus to strength, which causes a -6 insane penalty to ____dex_____"

We have a winner.

[Calebro]

I think most builds, especially the TWF/multi-class builds, are so feat starved (except for big fighter splashes maybe), that adding an improved finesse feat is the same as saying "You are a fool if you take this, but here it is if you want it."

Between TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC:P, OTWF (not necessarily needed, but nice at lower levels), Toughness, Stunning Blow, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization...how/where does one fit in Weapon Finesse and Improved Weapon Finesse?

The only one that would have a problem would be a pure non-human rogue, because you have a bunch of stuff there that is unneeded.
Green = take it
Red = skip it
Orange = OP
Yes, I said OP. I used to also think that it would be a good idea, namely adding the Shadow Blade feat from ToB: Bo9S.
But let's face it, if Str controls attack and damage, and Dex controls reflex saves and AC, that's balanced.
One feat allows Dex to control attack with certain weapons, but at the cost of some damage comparatively. That's balanced.

Making Dex cover attack, damage, AC and reflex saves would make Str obsolete. Every fighter would be stupid not to take both feats. Period. Every rogue would be stupid not to take both feats. Period. Every monk would be stupid not to take both feats. Period. Every ranger would be stupid not to take both feats. Period.
Do you see a trend here?

Adding that feat would not create options. It would reduce options. Because the optimal path would be to lower MAD by only needing a single ability score, even at the cost of two feats. You know hoe many upon many optimal builds all have 5-6 of the same exact feats in the build? This would simply add 2 more to that list. Every "optimal" toon would have identical feat lists. That is a reduction in options.
And with fighters/monks/rangers getting a ton of bonus feats, the one class that would actually benefit the MOST from those two feats is the one class that would have the hardest time fitting them in.

[WangChi]

The only one that would have a problem would be a pure non-human rogue, because you have a bunch of stuff there that is unneeded.
Green = take it
Red = skip it
Orange = OP
Yes, I said OP. I used to also think that it would be a good idea, namely adding the Shadow Blade feat from ToB: Bo9S.
But let's face it, if Str controls attack and damage, and Dex controls reflex saves and AC, that's balanced.
One feat allows Dex to control attack with certain weapons, but at the cost of some damage comparatively. That's balanced.

Making Dex cover attack, damage, AC and reflex saves would make Str obsolete. Every fighter would be stupid not to take both feats. Period. Every rogue would be stupid not to take both feats. Period. Every monk would be stupid not to take both feats. Period. Every ranger would be stupid not to take both feats. Period.
Do you see a trend here?

Adding that feat would not create options. It would reduce options. Because the optimal path would be to lower MAD by only needing a single ability score, even at the cost of two feats. You know hoe many upon many optimal builds all have 5-6 of the same exact feats in the build? This would simply add 2 more to that list. Every "optimal" toon would have identical feat lists. That is a reduction in options.
And with fighters/monks/rangers getting a ton of bonus feats, the one class that would actually benefit the MOST from those two feats is the one class that would have the hardest time fitting them in.

I see your point, Improved Weapon Finesse would be extremely OP - IF you could reasonably get your dex score as high as your strength score. Also, locking yourself entirely into rapier, no more khopesh with the yummy x3 multiplier.

Even if you added Improved Weapon Finesse, unless they fix AC and add more dex buff items like they have for strength, finesse builds would still be sub-optimal, don't you think?

[Calebro]

I see your point, Improved Weapon Finesse would be extremely OP - IF you could reasonably get your dex score as high as your strength score. Also, locking yourself entirely into rapier, no more khopesh with the yummy x3 multiplier.

Even if you added Improved Weapon Finesse, unless they fix AC and add more dex buff items like they have for strength, finesse builds would still be sub-optimal, don't you think?

Not at all.
A properly geared toon can have a respectable AC even if he's Str based. Dropping the need for Str entirely would not only raise his DPS by being able to max out Dex at roll-up, which would mean a higher Dex mod, which would mean more damage.... but it would also allow for more points into starting Wis, making monk splashed finesse based characters utterly dominate all content.
And it would also increase an already respectable AC into untouchable numbers, which means they would not only have the max DPS possible, but they'd also never take any damage.

Example:
My main is a strength based halfling 13 rogue / 6 pally / 1 monk. He started with a 15 Str.
His lowest UNBUFFED standing save is a 30.
I can self buff my AC into the 70's at the moment, and I'm still missing some gear.
He no-fails Heal scrolls without a gear swap.
Had he been allowed to leave Str at 11 to start, which would allow PA with a +2 tome, that would have freed up EIGHT build points to throw into Dex and Wis.
Eight build points that would have raised Dex to max and Wis by a few more.
His Str started at 15 +2 tome +5 level ups. That's 22 before any gear.
If he had those 8 points free, he'd have started with a 20 Dex +2 tome +5 level ups +2 halfling +3 rogue = 32 Dex before any gear.
That's a 10 point swing. That's the equivalent of Power Attack.
So not only would he have essentially gotten a second PA feat, but he'd have a better to-hit, and a better AC by a decent margin as well.
He'd be untouchable.

For your two feats: One of them is essentially a second PA. The other adds approximately +5 to hit and +3 to 5 AC. There's your two feats.
It would be STUPID not to take those feats, which means that feat would reduce options, which means that feat is probably not a good idea.

[Ookami007]

I always felt the one major error D&D carried through all editions and incarnations is not making dex the to-hit stat and str the damage stat, for everything.

This is the way it is in real life. I know quite a few weapon forms and regardless of size or weight of the weapon, from double daggers to guan dao pole arms, uncoordinated individuals would NOT be able to be proficient using them.

As it stands in DDO, RIP weapon finesse.

I put this into another thread, but I will also post it here.

Half-Orc 20:

20 Base - Creation
05 Base - Level ups (4,8,12,16,20)
02 Race - Half-Orc Enhancement
02 Inherant - +2 Tome
07 Enchantment - Epic Red Dragon Helm or Brawling Gloves
03 Exceptional - +1 and +2 bonuses on the Encrusted ToD Ring
03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone
02 Untyped - Yugoloth Potion
02 Artifact - +2 Strength Ship Buff
02 Store - DDO Store Potion
02 Morale - Rage Spell
03 Alchemical - House D Potion
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves
-------------------------------------
63 - str build.

Now lets say you rolled up that half orc as 16 str (never paying more than 1/1 point for point) and a higher dex, then put all level ups into dex. Thats 9 points of str you would lose, leaving you at a fully self buffed measly 54 points of str, on a rogue, bard, or ranger, LOL. If you rolled up a dwarf you would lose 4 more points putting your "dex build" at an even 50 str.

If people try and tell you that this is unrealistic, unsustainable, etc, ask them to build a 54 dex build with less sacrifice. There are also MORE ways to buff str, but these are the most sustainable. You could have it to 70 on a rogue or bard, np, for the entire time it takes to beat down a devil boss.

Turbine has put in so many stackable ways to buff str that finesse is obsolete once you reach high level and attain a few gear items and some favor for potions. Spend that feat elsewhere.

D&D was - from the beginning - a heroic abstract combat system. A to hit roll (THAC0 for you old timers) was the ability to inflict damage and overcome armor. It didn't even really consist of a single hit, but rather a series of hits, feints, etc that culminated in "damage".

Even damage was abstract. While some games were very gritty and damage equated to the loss (temporary or permanent) of limbs, etc.... or instant death for heart and head shots.... D&D maintained an abstract damage notion which incorporated luck, etc. so that is represented the amount of "luck" expended in the form of glancing blows, shallow cuts, etc. (you know, movie hero damage) before you took a critical blow (run thru, etc.).

It was never meant to depict a realistic battle, so the STR/DEX argument is hard to truly apply.

[WangChi]

Not at all.
A properly geared toon can have a respectable AC even if he's Str based. Dropping the need for Str entirely would not only raise his DPS by being able to max out Dex at roll-up, which would mean a higher Dex mod, which would mean more damage.... but it would also allow for more points into starting Wis, making monk splashed finesse based characters utterly dominate all content.
And it would also increase an already respectable AC into untouchable numbers, which means they would not only have the max DPS possible, but they'd also never take any damage.

Example:
My main is a strength based halfling 13 rogue / 6 pally / 1 monk. He started with a 15 Str.
His lowest UNBUFFED standing save is a 30.
I can self buff my AC into the 70's at the moment, and I'm still missing some gear.
He no-fails Heal scrolls without a gear swap.
Had he been allowed to leave Str at 11 to start, which would allow PA with a +2 tome, that would have freed up EIGHT build points to throw into Dex and Wis.
Eight build points that would have raised Dex to max and Wis by a few more.
His Str started at 15 +2 tome +5 level ups. That's 22 before any gear.
If he had those 8 points free, he'd have started with a 20 Dex +2 tome +5 level ups +2 halfling +3 rogue = 32 Dex before any gear.
That's a 10 point swing. That's the equivalent of Power Attack.
So not only would he have essentially gotten a second PA feat, but he'd have a better to-hit, and a better AC by a decent margin as well.
He'd be untouchable.

It would be STUPID not to take those feats, which means that feat would reduce options, which means that feat is probably not a good idea.

Point taken - and agreed with. Once you lay it all out like that it really does point out Improved Weapon Finesse would be very overpowered.

[Drfirewater79]

I always felt the one major error D&D carried through all editions and incarnations is not making dex the to-hit stat and str the damage stat, for everything.

This is the way it is in real life. I know quite a few weapon forms and regardless of size or weight of the weapon, from double daggers to guan dao pole arms, uncoordinated individuals would NOT be able to be proficient using them.

As it stands in DDO, RIP weapon finesse.

I put this into another thread, but I will also post it here.

Half-Orc 20:

20 Base - Creation
05 Base - Level ups (4,8,12,16,20)
02 Race - Half-Orc Enhancement
02 Inherant - +2 Tome
07 Enchantment - Epic Red Dragon Helm or Brawling Gloves
03 Exceptional - +1 and +2 bonuses on the Encrusted ToD Ring
03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone
02 Untyped - Yugoloth Potion
02 Artifact - +2 Strength Ship Buff
02 Store - DDO Store Potion
02 Morale - Rage Spell
03 Alchemical - House D Potion
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves
-------------------------------------
63 - str build.

And that doesnt include barbarian rages ... monk fire stance ... kensai power surge ...

Since AC is meaningless in end game on anything but normal and with the changes it means even less.

I know on my barb i can self buff str over 70 easily as a half orc. Dont have any other half-orcs .. but once i am done grinding my epics (assuming i dont just quit the game after this update which i am not sure of just yet) i might as well TR all my characters (cept my one intimitank dwarf) into half orcs. No point in having any other race anymore.

before respecing my barbarian half orc i had a 36 umd with no titan gloves .. .so that means no need to be human or half elf to get heal scrolls.

[Alexandryte]

Not at all.
A properly geared toon can have a respectable AC even if he's Str based. Dropping the need for Str entirely would not only raise his DPS by being able to max out Dex at roll-up, which would mean a higher Dex mod, which would mean more damage.... but it would also allow for more points into starting Wis, making monk splashed finesse based characters utterly dominate all content.
And it would also increase an already respectable AC into untouchable numbers, which means they would not only have the max DPS possible, but they'd also never take any damage.

Example:
My main is a strength based halfling 13 rogue / 6 pally / 1 monk. He started with a 15 Str.
His lowest UNBUFFED standing save is a 30.
I can self buff my AC into the 70's at the moment, and I'm still missing some gear.
He no-fails Heal scrolls without a gear swap.
Had he been allowed to leave Str at 11 to start, which would allow PA with a +2 tome, that would have freed up EIGHT build points to throw into Dex and Wis.
Eight build points that would have raised Dex to max and Wis by a few more.
His Str started at 15 +2 tome +5 level ups. That's 22 before any gear.
If he had those 8 points free, he'd have started with a 20 Dex +2 tome +5 level ups +2 halfling +3 rogue = 32 Dex before any gear.
That's a 10 point swing. That's the equivalent of Power Attack.
So not only would he have essentially gotten a second PA feat, but he'd have a better to-hit, and a better AC by a decent margin as well.
He'd be untouchable.

It would be STUPID not to take those feats, which means that feat would reduce options, which means that feat is probably not a good idea.

The following are bonuses that are only available to STR and are available to all classes and races:

03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone
02 Morale - Rage Spell
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves

And I think scourge choker fits on this list somewhere

This ignores class specific abilities that cannot be granted to others in a raid and race/stat enhancement bonuses

Irregardless: Strength still comes out on top and would be your +damage stat even starting at 11...but you would still do less damage than a STR build.

I don't see an issue allowing dex to give some advantage via weapon finesse if it is higher (and only if it is higher). Doesnt have to be straight damage. Could just be if you possess a higher dex than str you attack slightly faster than a STR based TWF (only with finesse-able weapons and weapon finesse).

[Calebro]

03 Profane - Epic Set
02 Untyped - Madstone
02 Untyped - Double Madstone not sustainable
02 Morale - Rage Spell
06 Psyonic - Titan Cookie or gloves not sustainable

So now how close are they?
Are they worth +3 to 5 AC, better reflex saves, and non-clicky/spell/buff intensive to-hit and damage?
The answer is Yes.
The difference wouldn't be large enough to even *want* to swap gear, drink pots, hit clickies, etc.

[Chai]

Not at all.
A properly geared toon can have a respectable AC even if he's Str based. Dropping the need for Str entirely would not only raise his DPS by being able to max out Dex at roll-up, which would mean a higher Dex mod, which would mean more damage.... but it would also allow for more points into starting Wis, making monk splashed finesse based characters utterly dominate all content.
And it would also increase an already respectable AC into untouchable numbers, which means they would not only have the max DPS possible, but they'd also never take any damage.

Example:
My main is a strength based halfling 13 rogue / 6 pally / 1 monk. He started with a 15 Str.
His lowest UNBUFFED standing save is a 30.
I can self buff my AC into the 70's at the moment, and I'm still missing some gear.
He no-fails Heal scrolls without a gear swap.
Had he been allowed to leave Str at 11 to start, which would allow PA with a +2 tome, that would have freed up EIGHT build points to throw into Dex and Wis.
Eight build points that would have raised Dex to max and Wis by a few more.
His Str started at 15 +2 tome +5 level ups. That's 22 before any gear.
If he had those 8 points free, he'd have started with a 20 Dex +2 tome +5 level ups +2 halfling +3 rogue = 32 Dex before any gear.
That's a 10 point swing. That's the equivalent of Power Attack.
So not only would he have essentially gotten a second PA feat, but he'd have a better to-hit, and a better AC by a decent margin as well.
He'd be untouchable.

For your two feats: One of them is essentially a second PA. The other adds approximately +5 to hit and +3 to 5 AC. There's your two feats.
It would be STUPID not to take those feats, which means that feat would reduce options, which means that feat is probably not a good idea.

That "better to hit" is assuming of course that there are as many ways to increase dex as there are str, which there certainly are not. Rogues can have str in the 50s as long as they want, which is crazy, then buff it into the mid 60s for periods of time, which is down right sick. Str builds by far have the better to-hit score.
Even halflings, once geared.

That would put your dex build halfling at least somewhere in the league of a hOrc str build khopesh rogue with lit2 weapons, although the hOrc would still win out.

[Calebro]

That "better to hit" is assuming of course that there are as many ways to increase dex as there are str, which there certainly are not. Rogues can have str in the 50s as long as they want, which is crazy, then buff it into the mid 60s for periods of time, which is down right sick. Str builds by far have the better to-hit score.
Even halflings, once geared.

That would put your dex build halfling at least somewhere in the league of a hOrc str build khopesh rogue with lit2 weapons, although the hOrc would still win out.

Are you disagreeing with me that Dex to damage via a feat would be OP, or are you nitpicking?