Finesse ... how do they plan to fix this now?

[Alexandryte]

Allow all characters to automatically use either str or dex (whichever is higher) as the attack mod with a finessable weapons without the cost of a feat. Change Weapon Finesse to allow you to use dex (if higher) instead of str for damage with finnesable weapons. (ie, instead of hitting harder, you're able to maneuver your weapon midswing to strike vulnerable areas)

^ This

That way it still costs a feat and the feat is well worth it. Though you may still need to tone it down to half Dex mod.


To all those complaining: Where exactly is a dex based buff (aside from ship buffs) in same relative scope to STR based buffs?

To the contrapositive of Dex grants XYZ and STR only grants AB....keep in mind when you build for STR you also dump dex if you dont need a caster stat...so you chose to have those low reflex saves and wield weapons that do greater base weapon damage (and usually higher crit profiles/multipliers) than the finesse-able weapons.


If a feat were available that converted STR mod to reflex saves....would you even use it?
Since you are bound by MDB, it would be moot to try and create a feat to add more AC (lest Barbs become the highest AC class in the game, the irony)


Fact of the matter is: DEX finesse builds want something to bring them into the same general zipcode of STR builds. When there are no buffs, AC does not matter/make a difference (without seriously gimping yourself) in epic content and a failed/successful reflex save is merely the difference of Heal or no Heal, where is there a balance?

[Drfirewater79]

"No THEY can't... I cannot." Now you're obviously saying every finesse built monk is exactly like yours? What is your dexterity that makes you so gimp you cannot hit epic mobs.

Even when I only had 32 STR I could hit epic mobs without issue. If you at least get to 32 Dex, you definitely should be able to hit epic mobs. Otherwise you either keep using those +1 wraps or just started with a base dex lower than 15.

I also disagree with the armor issue. A guildy has outwards of mid 70s AC finesse build halfling monk. Give him the right ship buffs and he gets to 80. He gets hit, but not nearly as much as everyone else.

/never sign for the idea of allowing Wind stance a greater chance to generate ki. Technically wind stance already has a better chance to generate ki than earth and water, because of extra attacks and bonus attack speed. You have more of a chance to actually produce hits.

If you're having an issue with ki, then I suggest using one of your meditations before going into a big fight. That way you go in with a good amount from the beginning. Ki strikes are supposed to be special attacks, not spells to be used at will.

I get self buffed high 70's ... fully raid buffed highest i have gotten is 87 without store bought stuff. and only the lvl 55 shipbuffs.

in windstance my stats unbuffed are

STR 19
DEX 38
CON 20
INT 15
WIS 28
CHA 16

UMD 37.5
AC 73

Its by far the most fun build i have on live .. .and by far my least favorite on lama.

compared to my Dwarven fighter who sits with a 36 str unbuffed and can self buff his ac into the mid 80's has a 34 DR on live and will have the same umd once he gets his gloves from titan. With fighter speed boost and new vorpal changes its better to be a defender then a dex monk ... for ac and dps. its sad. its not like Monks have intimidate and DR and can be tanks ... there AC is to allow them to be better support dps but the lack of ki makes them worthless for support and ac doesnt matter in epics.

[Musouka]

I get self buffed high 70's ... fully raid buffed highest i have gotten is 87 without store bought stuff. and only the lvl 55 shipbuffs.

in windstance my stats unbuffed are

STR 19
DEX 38
CON 20
INT 15
WIS 28
CHA 16

UMD 37.5
AC 73

Its by far the most fun build i have on live .. .and by far my least favorite on lama.

compared to my Dwarven fighter who sits with a 36 str unbuffed and can self buff his ac into the mid 80's has a 34 DR on live and will have the same umd once he gets his gloves from titan. With fighter speed boost and new vorpal changes its better to be a defender then a dex monk ... for ac and dps. its sad. its not like Monks have intimidate and DR and can be tanks ... there AC is to allow them to be better support dps but the lack of ki makes them worthless for support and ac doesnt matter in epics.

I wont say you're wrong in suggesting what you have. I just wont be supporting this change... sure something could be done. The best solution that I see that could be done is add the ki enhancement to the crafting or just random loot generation.

[enigma1122]

I hate to be the grumpy old pen and paper player, I know DDO is different, but most modern systems; SpyCraft, Fantasy Craft, Pathfinder (I think) Weapon Finesse is simply Dex to Damage, or it is Dex to hit and you an enhancement to get Dex to damage. Not saying this is the perfect cure. It does show that progress is supporting your suggestion though. Dex characters need some kind of boost to damage, especially in an inflated system like DDO compared to PnP.

[AcesWylde]

That way it still costs a feat and the feat is well worth it. Though you may still need to tone it down to half Dex mod.

I considered that, however, I rationalized it thus:
(1) most finessabe weapons already do less base damage that what a str build would be using
(2) it's costing a feat slot to get the equivalent damage bonus, that a str build could use to increase their naturally high damage output even higher.
(3) it's much easier to boost str than dex, so even with this str will out dps dex, but at least not as much as now
(4) if you even have a halfway decent str bonus on a dex build, you should be doing at least close to half the possible damage bonus as your dex mod, rending the proposed feat pretty much not worth taking

thoughts?

[Angelus_dead]

I'll just toss out a factoid without comment:

By the D&D 3.5 rules, if you put a feat into Martial Study - Shadow Blade Technique, one into Martial Stance - Island of Blades, and then finally another into Shadow Blade, you'll use Dexterity instead of Strength for damage with daggers, shortswords, and unarmed. (The first two feats are on the Fighter bonus list)

[Drfirewater79]

I'll just toss out a factoid without comment:

By the D&D 3.5 rules, if you put a feat into Martial Study - Shadow Blade Technique, one into Martial Stance - Island of Blades, and then finally another into Shadow Blade, you'll use Dexterity instead of Strength for damage with daggers, shortswords, and unarmed. (The first two feats are on the Fighter bonus list)

Which would be three feats for the minor ability? which is a bigger cost then is warented by the change. But what you do make a good point of is that they could do this to finesse and balance it out.

[Memek]

14 dex isnt aiming for high reflexes or AC. They've made that choice. Give you a hint where a vast majority of the rest of the points are. (HINT: its in the other melee to-hit stat).

Rapiers are a 18-20X2 profile that do 1d6 damage. The range may be desirable but the end damage is still low.

Let me put it this way: TWF is made for dex builds as THF is made for str builds.

I dont really know what you mean at the beginning of your post, but here you are wrong:
Strength builds very often go TWFing.

Oh, and noone really cares about base damage (i think you call it "end damage" for some reason).

As i understand the rest of your post goes along the same path of "TWFing is only for dexxers" so i'll just scrap that.

Apart from one high-end weapon (eSoS), TWFing is stronger than THFing, Strength based or not.

[Angelus_dead]

Which would be three feats for the minor ability? which is a bigger cost then is warented by the change.

Well I didn't spell it out, but the first two feats provide useful benefits by themselves, in addition to working as prereqs. A Rogue18/Fighter2 could get them with bonus feats, and then only spend one regular slot for the ability.

A build list could be: Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, Imp Crit, Power Attack (human could add Toughness). Honestly for DDO I'd recommend merging Martial Study and Martial Stance into one feat providing both benefits. (And I actually suggested that in detail some years ago)

[The_Mighty_Cube]

*slurp* knock off the bickering. Thanks.

[fyrst.grok]

With the fancy red color i cant quote your post so i'll keep it short.

Re: Double Strikes,
Of course it's possible that they changed stuff and i didnt notice it, but discussions with other high level Monks lead me to believe otherwise - that you dont even know what the different stances do, and why Wind is best at everything as long as you can hit.
..snip..

What he said.. There are so many misunderstandings in your post regarding the different stances, that I honestly think you should TR or re-roll once you have an understanding of the mechanics..

Not saying this to be mean or condecending, but wind stance for instance add 10% doublestrike, and i think 15% attackspeed as well as the higher dex.
My str monk use wind more than fire as well.. It's just more dps.

Look at the stance descriptions here.

[Drfirewater79]

Well I didn't spell it out, but the first two feats provide useful benefits by themselves, in addition to working as prereqs. A Rogue18/Fighter2 could get them with bonus feats, and then only spend one regular slot for the ability.

A build list could be: Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, Imp Crit, Power Attack (human could add Toughness). Honestly for DDO I'd recommend merging Martial Study and Martial Stance into one feat providing both benefits. (And I actually suggested that in detail some years ago)

That would work .. .if there was only ONE extra feat for adding dex to damage instead of strength that would work. But honestly in this day and age can we really afford to not take toughness at least once in this game? mobs hit for over 300 sometimes (raid bosses) look at all the bad rouge builds go splat on normal shroud.

[WangChi]

Change weapon finesse from it's current form to:

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: BAB +3, Dexterity 15
Weapon finesse allows the character to use his dexterity modifier instead of the strength modifier when making melee attack rolls and applying damage with light weapons, rapiers and unarmed strikes.
Rogues taking this feat add their Dexterity bonus to their Sneak Attack damage.

Then add to wind stance as follows -
Monk Wind Stance:
Monks receive the feat weapon finesse while in wind stance.

EDIT: Prereq's for feat changed to BAB +3, Dex 15.

[grodon9999]

*slurp* knock off the bickering. Thanks.

"Bickering" is the proper course for a customer dissatisfied with the direction of a product. Everyone here is being civil, there is no need for thread-munching here.

[Angelus_dead]

Everyone here is being civil, there is no need for thread-munching here.

Maybe you didn't see the thread before it was munched... I don't have it on the screen anymore, but it was clearly in violation of some forum rules. It could be debated if those particular rules are really helpful ones, but it was surely breaking them.

To say insult someone is against the rules here, regardless of whether the accusation was accurate and deserved.

[Aesop]

I've posted this in other threads and its recieved mostly positive review



Have weapon Finesse grant these bonuses as long as the condition of Dexterity being higher than Strength is met

1. Dexterity Bonus is added to Attack Rolls with Light and Finessable Weapons in place of Strength.
2. Dexterity replaces Strength for certain Tactical Feat DCs (mostly Trip and maybe others) and to resist Tactical Feats
3. The Dexterity modifier is added to the damage of Critical Hits BEFORE multiplying


The down side here is that if Strength exceeds Dex you won't gain the benefits.
The extra damage is on Critical Hits and thus won't add to damage to High Fort Mobs and those who are immune.



Aesop

[Uska]

Allow all characters to automatically use either str or dex (whichever is higher) as the attack mod with a finessable weapons without the cost of a feat. Change Weapon Finesse to allow you to use dex (if higher) instead of str for damage with finnesable weapons. (ie, instead of hitting harder, you're able to maneuver your weapon midswing to strike vulnerable areas)

Umm no

[CrosisBlackwing]

Finesse builds are really effected in a negative way with this update.
Finesse monks cant generate enough ki to be worth a licked cent now ... AC doesn't mean anything in epics ... and you can get better ac on a str build dwarf defender then you can on a dex wis monk and get twice the DR if not 4 times.

Finesse build rouges are not half as good as str build rouges ...

WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM?

The reason this is a problem is Finesse costs a feat to use. Right now the feat only allows for dex to be used instead of str for to hit with light weapons (not damage) so at the cost of a feat you get gimped? how does this make sense?

There has been alot of BS slung around lately with the changes to Update 9 but this change has drastically effected finesse builds in the most negitive ways ... especially monks with the superior drop in ki gen reducing there dps from bad to insect like.

HOW CAN WE ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM?

For monks: WIND STANCE , when in greater wind stance, and you have the finesse feat you gain twice the ki gen rate.

For all finesse characters: Finesse feat uses Dex bonus to hit and half dex bonus or full str bonus which ever is higher for damage.

WHY DOES THIS FIX FINESSE?

As it costs a feat it should provide a significant benefit. But its only one feat so it shouldn't be over powering. For monks it allows them to be AC builds in the new system allowing them to generate equally good ki gen (helping balance stances) and for everyone adding half dex bonus to damage means that its not as powerful as STR builds (who get full str to damage) but puts finesse builds on a more even footing.

Allowing AC builds to be valid at end game when ac doesn't account for as much.


People shouldn't be forced to respec into a build type that is the exact opposite of there planned build just to maintain the same level of effectiveness at end game. Characters are suppost to get more powerful with level not less. And right now Finesse builds get less effective as you go up in levels and i think that this minor change to how finesse works in DDO would go a long way to changing that.

I don't see how this update changed how your Monk generates Ki? is it the non-auto crits? Well my Barb can no longer Crit for 800+ every other swing, I find this to be different than my experience beforehand and dislike the change. I suggest adding a feat:
Barbarian: Executioners Cut
Barbarian Level Required: 18
You have become a raging, screaming blood crazed monster and have killed many of your helpless prisoners. With this feat, whenever you attack a helpless enemy you automatically Critical and your weapons critical multiplier is increased by 1.

This will put me back inline with how I was before the update. I don't want to adapt to the new playstyle required. Bring back that old thing!

[TheKaige]

Best fix to me by far sounds to me to let Weapon Finesse be automatic for all finessable weapons, and not worry about giving weapon finesse some extra bonuses.

It would also make dexterity as a stat more useful period, since dexterity in and of itself would have an extra purpose not requiring you take a feat.

Letting Weapon Finesse give you dexterity for your damage modifier sounds to me like Dexterity would become the dominant stat, and people would talk about why would anyone ever play a Strength-Based Dual-Wielder. Saves, AC (When it matters, which is sparingly) attack, AND damage (albeit at the cost of a feat) sounds a bit overwhelming.

I'd rather see Weapon Finesse make your damage modifier equal to 1/2 your dexterity modifier + 1/2 your strength modifier however, while keeping all Finessable weapons attack = Dexterity or Strength, feat-wise or not.

Getting rid of weapon finesse totally, and making it a property of all finessable weapons still sounds best to me however.

[donfilibuster]

Just another person wanting to get more dps from finesse just because the AC advantage from dex is broken.
AC needs the fixing not finesse.