Finesse ... how do they plan to fix this now?

**xAlistairx** · 04-13-2011, 08:02 PM

Okay, how about something like the Ranger Dilettante feat? Where Weapon Finesse is Dexterity Modifier=Attack Bonus and 2 points of your Dexterity Modifier added to damage. Then you can take Improved Finesse 1-X to give it more points of your Dexterity mod to damage as enhancements.

**VorpalLaugh** · 04-14-2011, 01:43 AM

The best way, IMO to improve finesse is to
A - fix the "ac is useless at end game" problem
B create new feats/ehancements/prestige that require finesse and work with ideas of the build. a la the fighting style lines. Unfortuneatley I am to tired to come up with any examples right now.

A is by far the best solution as the positive impact of B would severely limited without addressing A.

**mournbladereigns** · 04-14-2011, 02:26 AM

Was thinking about this earlier after reading through thread. Idea should be to provide feat/ability that provides more oomph for Dex based finesse fighters, without creating a feat that Str based builds can/will take for even moar DPS.

So with that in mind, I propose

Improved Weapon Finesse:
Requires: DEX 19, BAB +6 or better, Weapon Finesse Feat, and one of Combat Expertise, Precision or Improved Feint
Your skill with light weapons and rapiers has improved. You use your Dex Mod as attack bonus when attacking with Rapiers or light weapons. You are limited to a maximum Str Mod to damage equal to your Dex Mod when attacking with rapiers or light weapons.
Your greater skill and precision when fighting with rapiers and light weapons allows you to make more devastating critical hits. On a critical threat, you add your Dex Mod as an insight bonus to your critical confirmation roll and, on a confirmed crit, your Dex Mod to your damage before multipliers are applied (functionally an Insight Seeker bonus = Dex Mod)

So the Dex and Feat requirements put this in the realm of non-optimal for most STR based TWF builds, without requiring a +4 tome or level ups. It also locks them into only rapiers/light weapons and their dex mod for attacking.
Finally by limiting the str mod to damage to a maximum of your Dex Mod, you eliminate the potential for abuse by Stacking Str bonuses, since they won't be able to gain benefits of extra STR to damage or to hit with Finesseable weapons.

In exchange for the two feats and high Dex, you get a major boost to DPS on critical strikes, critting around 50% more often, and doing around 20+ more damage, on top of bloodstone/bold trinket/shimmering arrowhead. So for a capped Finesse toon with Rapiers and IC: Pierce he will get an average of 6 extra damage with this feat, assuming your able to bypass Fortification. (the equivalent of 12 STR boost to damage.)

**Soul-Shaker** · 04-14-2011, 05:01 AM

DDO has always screwed finesse on everything dex required.

TWF line dex requirements are lower then they should be and theres no superior twf

so its to easy for a str build to max str yet still TWF.

The major thing that screws the balance of dex/finesse and continues on this track is there are way more str bonuses in this game which makes dex. madstone x2, sourge chocker, titan grips, epic abishai profane, rage spell, kensaiII, barb rages, paladin sib defender stances, rams might, etc. Basically can make the finesse feat even on a max dex toon pointless. At the same time finesse weapon choices fall far behind on dps. (with the exception of maybe epic zephyr offhand).

I'm still waiting for something like called shots on vitals which would be something finesse would excel at.

Then we got the AC issue which took its major nerf U1 (when I left till U7) due to mob glancing blow system doesn't even check AC and the alert system doesn't allow us to zerg.

Next came elite/epic end content AC is useless.

I've fought for Dex and AC issues for several years, but those still going downhill ;(. To the OP though. U9 doesn't really change how finesse monks make KI. dex and dex tohit/dmg has nothing to do with why any finesse monk wont make more KI. Its the lose of crane enhancement and helpless mob change that has hurt KI generation. Fix the cause of the problem. Give crane extra KI on crit and helpless would more then likely put you back to same as U8.

If they made AC useful again and give more ways to get dex, then I think finesse build would have a reason again. Your fix of giving them more dmg to compete with Str builds just doesn't make sense. I recently got breeze QS which uses dex for attack and dmg, and let me tell you that its useless because it doesn't use 1.5 dex for dmg ;p. Comparing 46 dex breeze and 26 str Shining Crescents do about same dmg and both are finessable but crescent uses str mod for dmg.

Just thought of something that might help. Another place that PnP dex builds had an advantage on was turn initiative to avoid flat foot and getting attack of opportunities. So I suggest:

Add to current weapon finesse feat.
"You gain (stacking) double strike chance equal to your dex modifier when using finesse weapons."

May need some balancing like dex mod -5 or dex mod/2 and alacrity would make more sense but Devs seem to be moving away from that idea.

**Emizand** · 04-14-2011, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by SableShadow

That's hyperbole....

Can you unlock that race or do you have to buy it from the DDO store? ;-)

**Nospheratus** · 04-14-2011, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Soul-Shaker

Add to current weapon finesse feat.
"You gain (stacking) double strike chance equal to your dex modifier when using finesse weapons."

I was thinking something along these lines too, but dex mod to double strike would be too much!

Perhaps Dex Mod/2 or /3 because it should stack... 40 is a +15 mod -> +7.5% or +5% to doublestrike doesn't sound that much, especially because not everyone has 40 dex...

Considering human rogue (just because)
18 base
+5 levelup
+4 enhancements (14 APs - rogue dex 1,2,3 and human versatility - or greater for 4 APs)
+6 item
+3 exceptional
+3 tome
--------------
39 with a fair amount of dedication!..

Requirements for all this?
Weapon finesse
More dex than str
Use of finessable weapons

**WangChi** · 04-14-2011, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by VorpalLaugh

The best way, IMO to improve finesse is to
A - fix the "ac is useless at end game" problem
B create new feats/ehancements/prestige that require finesse and work with ideas of the build. a la the fighting style lines. Unfortuneatley I am to tired to come up with any examples right now.

A is by far the best solution as the positive impact of B would severely limited without addressing A.

I think both options are actually good ideas if implemented together, along with adding more items/ways to get dex bonuses.

Weapon Finesse has never been about DPS, it's always been about "I wanna be able to hit without being hit." That's why it costs a feat. The problem in DDO is, it's more like, "I still can't hit and I'm getting hit all the time." By fixing AC and adding more dex bonus items, weapon finesse immediately becomes a viable option again. Adding an enhancement line with weapon finesse as a prereq would be great for rangers/rogues/bards/monks. Something like:

Finesse Strike I: Cost 2AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add 15% of your dexterity modifier to damage.

Finesse Strike II: Cost 4AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, Finesse Strike I, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add an additional 15% of your dexterity modifier to damage for a total of 30%.

Finesse Strike III: Cost 6AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, Finesse Strike II, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add an additional 15% of your dexterity modifier to damage for a total of 45%.

Finesse Strike IV: Cost 8AP
Requires Weapon Finesse, Finesse Strike III, wielding finessable weapon(s).
If your dexterity modifier is higher than your strength modifier, you add an additional 30% of your dexterity modifier to damage for a total of 75%.

In this example, for a total of 20AP, finesse fighters can now add decent DPS, at the cost of a lot of other enhancements. 20AP goes a long way.

**grodon9999** · 04-14-2011, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by VorpalLaugh

The best way, IMO to improve finesse is to
A - fix the "ac is useless at end game" problem
B create new feats/ehancements/prestige that require finesse and work with ideas of the build. a la the fighting style lines. Unfortuneatley I am to tired to come up with any examples right now.

A is by far the best solution as the positive impact of B would severely limited without addressing A.

Agreed.

**Scraap** · 04-14-2011, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by VorpalLaugh

The best way, IMO to improve finesse is to
A - fix the "ac is useless at end game" problem
B create new feats/ehancements/prestige that require finesse and work with ideas of the build. a la the fighting style lines. Unfortuneatley I am to tired to come up with any examples right now.

A is by far the best solution as the positive impact of B would severely limited without addressing A.

Pretty much agreed. The point of finesse is, after all, so you can keep hitting even if you've gone almost full-on defense. The only question is, how would they implement the solution in such a manner that dex doesn't invalidate armor, or end up so far below damage output that you've gutted yourself. Otherwise, they throw one of those back under the bus...

Suggested/seen it before, but
- armor for when surrounded (loss of dex when flanked) + dex for 1 on 1 might serve as a play-style segregation to keep both valid, but that would require folks to play the classes quite a bit differently class to class than they do now, which would definitely cause irritation in a few quarters.

- bumping up reflex save requirements from traps and spells cast on us, and implementing saves for the no-save ones as a nod to the PnP reqs (touch and ray spells use dex, dodge and the like, but no armor as DC), though that would likely cause more than a little screaming.

- the ever-so-popular reversion to 19 dex for full twf (really too late in the game for this one, and turbines shown a heavy preference for keeping their personal house rules over the core ones, even if it takes 5 new house rules on top to get back to balanced, and not just in this update. Mass exodus aside.)

Probably a few other notions floating around, but certainly not simple, nor without heavy side-effects...

**Samadhi** · 04-14-2011, 08:18 AM

You are skipping over the real problem although you mentioned it. The real problem is that currently sacrificing any DPS for AC is self-gimping. This is the problem. It has nothing to do with finesse or monk ki; it has everything to do with making AC useful again, and thereby rebalancing all of your issues in one shot.

Any other solution is just an overly complicated bandaid ignoring the real issue.

**SableShadow** · 04-14-2011, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Emizand

Can you unlock that race or do you have to buy it from the DDO store? ;-)

Comes free with any forum account.

**Brannigan** · 04-14-2011, 08:28 AM

There is just no point to making a finesse character until they fix AC for epics - and despite repeated threads on the subject, & alot of player suggestions the dev team just continue to ignore the AC issue in the hope we will all forget about it.

**grodon9999** · 04-14-2011, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Brannigan

There is just no point to making a finesse character until they fix AC for epics - and despite repeated threads on the subject, & alot of player suggestions the dev team just continue to ignore the AC issue in the hope we will all forget about it.

But it's not gonna happen, they can't ban us all!

Oh wait . . .

**Alexandryte** · 04-14-2011, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Memek

I dont really know what you mean at the beginning of your post, but here you are wrong:
Strength builds very often go TWFing.

Oh, and noone really cares about base damage (i think you call it "end damage" for some reason).

As i understand the rest of your post goes along the same path of "TWFing is only for dexxers" so i'll just scrap that.

Apart from one high-end weapon (eSoS), TWFing is stronger than THFing, Strength based or not.

Let me rephrase: given that there are other finesse-able one handed weapons (or you could just scrap finessing and go whatever 1 hander you wish) why would you chose a weapon that does 1d6 with a x2 multiplier. You lower any burst blast or maiming extra damage right off the bat. Piercing also doesn't bypass as many Physical DR as say a blunt or slashing weapon does. Or to say...there are more times you will come across monsters with DR/Slashing or Blunt than DR/piercing.

Sure you may crit more often but does that chance make up for it? (I'm honestly asking, I don't know the answer)

And if most TWFs go STR build why would you bother with finesse or caring about using light weapons? STR can easily go higher to offset any penalty if you don't want to spend a feat for Oversized two weapon fighting.

My point was to ask if I'm taking a feat and a combat stat (over a magic one or general one (CON)) and that combat stat has no buffs naturally in game (aka can be augmented by a player cast spell) why should I be at the bottom of the barrel?

If STR-based builds are the only option since they are far and away better with both stacking player cast buffs and overall much higher damage and to-hit (enough that you can ignore penalties)......Is there really any option? Or does it become "do this or be gimp"?

That is the crux of the matter. That is why DEX based builds are annoyed. If going DEX just = gimp without recourse then why build a dex based character? For AC? No....AC is not as effective in epics where monsters will most likely still hit you for the full amount and you will lower your DPS to do so....causing the fight to go on longer. No net gain. For reflex save perhaps? Heal or Rez and Heal and be done. For Ranged combat? Still in the process of finding that sweet spot for rangers....everyone else will be below them in that regard (unless you grab all the same feats).

For the cost investment DEX does not put out noticeably at endgame. That is the problem.

**grodon9999** · 04-14-2011, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Samadhi

You are skipping over the real problem although you mentioned it. The real problem is that currently sacrificing any DPS for AC is self-gimping. This is the problem. It has nothing to do with finesse or monk ki; it has everything to do with making AC useful again, and thereby rebalancing all of your issues in one shot.

Any other solution is just an overly complicated bandaid ignoring the real issue.

There is significantly more DPS gear in this game then there was when epics first came out. Every piece of gear you slot, feat you take, ability point you slot, level you splash, etc . . . directly affects your DPS. Now more than before, you lose more DPS building for AC.

That's the balancing mechanism. At this point in the game there's no reason AC cannot be made a viable option for end-game.

**Alexandryte** · 04-14-2011, 09:31 AM