Finesse ... how do they plan to fix this now?

[Drfirewater79]

Finesse builds are really effected in a negative way with this update.
Finesse monks cant generate enough ki to be worth a licked cent now ... AC doesn't mean anything in epics ... and you can get better ac on a str build dwarf defender then you can on a dex wis monk and get twice the DR if not 4 times.

Finesse build rouges are not half as good as str build rouges ...

WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM?

The reason this is a problem is Finesse costs a feat to use. Right now the feat only allows for dex to be used instead of str for to hit with light weapons (not damage) so at the cost of a feat you get gimped? how does this make sense?

There has been alot of BS slung around lately with the changes to Update 9 but this change has drastically effected finesse builds in the most negitive ways ... especially monks with the superior drop in ki gen reducing there dps from bad to insect like.

HOW CAN WE ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM?

For monks: WIND STANCE , when in greater wind stance, and you have the finesse feat you gain twice the ki gen rate.

For all finesse characters: Finesse feat uses Dex bonus to hit and half dex bonus or full str bonus which ever is higher for damage.

WHY DOES THIS FIX FINESSE?

As it costs a feat it should provide a significant benefit. But its only one feat so it shouldn't be over powering. For monks it allows them to be AC builds in the new system allowing them to generate equally good ki gen (helping balance stances) and for everyone adding half dex bonus to damage means that its not as powerful as STR builds (who get full str to damage) but puts finesse builds on a more even footing.

Allowing AC builds to be valid at end game when ac doesn't account for as much.


People shouldn't be forced to respec into a build type that is the exact opposite of there planned build just to maintain the same level of effectiveness at end game. Characters are suppost to get more powerful with level not less. And right now Finesse builds get less effective as you go up in levels and i think that this minor change to how finesse works in DDO would go a long way to changing that.

[Memek]

Finesse builds are really effected in a negative way with this update.
Finesse monks cant generate enough ki to be worth a licked cent now ...

Finesse can switch to Fire or use Oremi's like everyone else come next update.

Finesse does have situational advantages that ebb and flow with the level and group composition you are playing at/with.
However at end game, yes, it isnt useful.

The reason this is a problem is Finesse costs a feat to use. Right now the feat only allows for dex to be used instead of str for to hit with light weapons (not damage) so at the cost of a feat you get gimped? how does this make sense?

Like BSwords. It's a pity that some builds are actually newbie traps but that is a product of ongoing balancing (which is needed in the game environment).
And there are places where Finesse builds perform better. Not end game though, currently.

For monks: WIND STANCE , when in greater wind stance, and you have the finesse feat you gain twice the ki gen rate.

If that happens, my Strength based Monk takes Finesse, no question there.
Apart from the +2 attack and Ki gen, Wind stance is FAR and away the best stance. It puts out the highest DPS as long as you can hit things, and your Fist DC drops in Fire.
If you put it on even footing with Fire for Ki gen, you might as well remove the others.

Nowadays, my Strength monk is running Wind most of the time because it's the best DPS stance (doublestrikes), best stunning stance (because of double strikes and Ki bonus with double strikes), best Void4 stance (double strikes), best everything except attack bonus (and Ki gen is sufficient now in any stance with autocrits).
Next update, i might have to switch to Fire for Ki, but making Wind again best at everything is not the answer.

However, the difference in Ki gen between Fire and other stance is too high, yes.

Allowing AC builds to be valid at end game when ac doesn't account for as much.

AC will soon be changed to relating to a % damage absorption, modified by quest level/difficulty. No insider knowledge, but the writing's on the wall.
This will settle those complaints.

[Jaid314]

so, in other words... add the main fire stance advantage to air stance?

well, fine, but i want power attack to grant 10% doublestrike and 10% melee alacrity when i'm in GM sun stance.

finesse rogues have always been a bit less impressive offensively than strength rogues. it isn't related to this update, and if they build right, it isn't a huge difference either.

i'm further not particularly convinced that dex monks are hit so much worse than monks in general... i have a fire stance monk that relies on stunning targets to generate ki (so i can stun more targets, etc), and will no longer be able to throw nearly as many stuns, nor as many healing ki finishers, when the update comes out. yes, dex monks get a higher percentage of their damage from strikes, but if you build decently you should have still had reasonably good strength anyways, and should still have decent damage.

monks in general are going to be short on ki after this update, and that is going to make life harder. *however*, it is not going to be a problem only experienced by dex monks, it will affect *all* monks.

[SableShadow]

Finesse build rouges are not half as good as str build rouges ...

That's hyperbole...I've done both.

Also, it's "rogue". kthxbai

For all finesse characters: Finesse feat uses Dex bonus to hit and half dex bonus or full str bonus which ever is higher for damage.

Why not add full or half dex bonus to str as SA damage instead (assuming the feat cost)?

My logic:
1) Doesn't add to crit damage, so it doesn't contribute (as badly) to current stacking issues
2) It's more thematic (striking the "soft spots")
3) It's still really, really good ... competitive as a feat in a PA/Khopesh world
4) Harder to max out than str
5) More situational. More effected by having aggro, by fort/immune critters, and the (current) helplessness bonus.
6) Even at, say, 40 dex you're talking:
- 15 SA (assuming full dex bonus) damage per eligible hit. That's not chicken feed, but that's about 4d6 + 1 SA damage...or the value of PA on a khopesh crit.
- 8 SA (assuming half dex bonus) damage per eligible hit. That's the value of Tharne's goggles, very situational but slightly ahead of PA on those situational targets.

The way AC is handled in game still needs to be addressed, of course.

Edit: In retrospect, not so great an idea. It would be so good, at either the half or full version, that everyone with spare feats would take it.

[Calebro]

No.
The solution to the problem is to not start your finesse monk with a 10 strength. Starting with a 10 strength is dumping strength. You dumped strength on a melee build. Don't do that.
There. Problem solved.

[Memek]

Why not add full or half dex bonus to str as SA damage instead (assuming the feat cost)?

Because every strength build would suddenly take Finesse to increase his damage output.

Finesse has advantages, higher AC, higher Reflex save and occasionally higher attack bonus. That these advantages go out the window at end game (AC doesnt matter, attack bonus isnt higher anymore with strength boosts and Reflex save is still nice but Strength builds can get it high enough) shouldnt be fixed by uber-izing Finesse so that everyone takes it to increase damage but by changing things at end game.

Seriously, levelling an untouchable Finesse build is far easier and cheaper than a Strength build with less AC. That everything completely changes at end game is simply because AC hasnt had a revamp yet.

[SableShadow]

Because every strength build would suddenly take Finesse to increase his damage output.

Finesse has advantages, higher AC, higher Reflex save and occasionally higher attack bonus. That these advantages go out the window at end game (AC doesnt matter, attack bonus isnt higher anymore with strength boosts and Reflex save is still nice but Strength builds can get it high enough) shouldnt be fixed by uber-izing Finesse so that everyone takes it to increase damage but by changing things at end game.

Seriously, levelling an untouchable Finesse build is far easier and cheaper than a Strength build with less AC. That everything completely changes at end game is simply because AC hasnt had a revamp yet.

Yeah, good points.

I tend to look at everything from the rogue perspective, in which I'd be trading some other feat for finesse, but you're right: everyone with spare feats would take it as outlined above.


Ah well, back to the drawing board.

+1

[phum]

Why not add full or half dex bonus to str as SA damage instead (assuming the feat cost)?

My logic:
1) Doesn't add to crit damage, so it doesn't contribute (as badly) to current stacking issues
2) It's more thematic (striking the "soft spots")
3) It's still really, really good ... competitive as a feat in a PA/Khopesh world
4) Harder to max out than str
5) More situational. More effected by having aggro, by fort/immune critters, and the (current) helplessness bonus.
6) Even at, say, 40 dex you're talking:
- 15 SA (assuming full dex bonus) damage per eligible hit. That's not chicken feed, but that's about 4d6 + 1 SA damage...or the value of PA on a khopesh crit.
- 8 SA (assuming half dex bonus) damage per eligible hit. That's the value of Tharne's goggles, very situational but slightly ahead of PA on those situational targets.

The way AC is handled in game still needs to be addressed, of course.

I really like this idea for finesse. Hope they really get to a good dex build overhaul sometime in the future. This would solve quite a bit of the problem. Think something similar could be done for ranged combat?

[phum]

Because every strength build would suddenly take Finesse to increase his damage output.

Finesse has advantages, higher AC, higher Reflex save and occasionally higher attack bonus. That these advantages go out the window at end game (AC doesnt matter, attack bonus isnt higher anymore with strength boosts and Reflex save is still nice but Strength builds can get it high enough) shouldnt be fixed by uber-izing Finesse so that everyone takes it to increase damage but by changing things at end game.

Seriously, levelling an untouchable Finesse build is far easier and cheaper than a Strength build with less AC. That everything completely changes at end game is simply because AC hasnt had a revamp yet.

True. I type slow. Would need some conditions like truely using dex for attack or something. Really hope this AC revamp comes about soon(tm)

[Uska]

No finese does exactly what it should do just dont start your str to low if dex added for damage for finese builds it would be ridiculous

[Asketes]

Finesse builds are really effected in a negative way with this update.

just this update

finesse builds are soo mod8

[Memek]

True. I type slow. Would need some conditions like truely using dex for attack or something.

Then you'd run into the problem where a 30 Strength/ 32 Dexterity build would actually lose damage for getting raged. Which on the one hand could be avoided by the player (turn off Rage) but on the other hand doesnt make sense (Rage = less AC).

No, boni for Finesse will either make Strength builds take the feat to cheese out more DPS or put Finesse builds with decent Strength at an unfair disadvantage compared to builds with dumped Strength.

[Calebro]

No finese does exactly what it should do just dont start your str to low if dex added for damage for finese builds it would be ridiculous

Too late.

this is based on a 20 str in windstance with a rage pot dex 38.

10 base
+2 tome
+6 item
+2 rage as listed
-----------
20

All of his threads constantly complaining about a monk's DPS isn't a problem of the Monk class. It's a problem of the particular monk in question.

[AcesWylde]

Allow all characters to automatically use either str or dex (whichever is higher) as the attack mod with a finessable weapons without the cost of a feat. Change Weapon Finesse to allow you to use dex (if higher) instead of str for damage with finnesable weapons. (ie, instead of hitting harder, you're able to maneuver your weapon midswing to strike vulnerable areas)

[Drfirewater79]

Finesse can switch to Fire or use Oremi's like everyone else come next update.

No they can't ... AC of epic mobs is too high so i cannot go into fire stance ... also i use shintao set so i cannot use oremi's cause i am not a henshin mystic. This is the whole point ... the change i propose balances the stances between str bulids and finesse builds still allowing str builds to get more out of dps.

Finesse does have situational advantages that ebb and flow with the level and group composition you are playing at/with.
However at end game, yes, it isnt useful.

That is the problem .. finesse allows for unarmored characters to have a chance at AC but its not worth a lick at end game.

Like BSwords. It's a pity that some builds are actually newbie traps but that is a product of ongoing balancing (which is needed in the game environment).
And there are places where Finesse builds perform better. Not end game though, currently.

AC builds and builds that are based on ENJOYMENT FACTOR rather then DPS only. Its not a newbie trap to play a finesse build .. its a in game option that currently is not being balanced properly due to a lack of creativity and understanding of there own game mechanics and balancing.

If that happens, my Strength based Monk takes Finesse, no question there.
Apart from the +2 attack and Ki gen, Wind stance is FAR and away the best stance. It puts out the highest DPS as long as you can hit things, and your Fist DC drops in Fire.
If you put it on even footing with Fire for Ki gen, you might as well remove the others.

You obviously didnt read what i was saying... Finesse for monks adds ki to wind stance only and HALF dex or full str which ever is higher. This means you will be disadvantaged by one full feat if you take it on a STR bulid because you would gain nothing and lose a feat. your DCs only drop by 1 if you need 1 point to be the difference between making and breaking then you never had the ability to make it in the first place.

It shouldnt be on even footing with fire stance but have you played a finesse wind stance monk on lama .. .I have ... and you cant use your powers cause you cant generate ki unless your in fire stance and soloing. In epics you cannot use fire stance and still hit mobs and cannot generate the ki to use them in wind stance.

How is that balanced?

Water stance increases DCs that is why its good
Earth stance increases hps and damage dice tha tis why its good
Fire stance adds DPS from fire damage to hit for str builds exceptional ki gen
Wind stance increases dex bonus .. and that is about it.

All stances get the same double strike bonus ... All unarmed monks get the attack speed and wind stance doesnt stack with haste so what advantage does windstance have?
Jedz gives +10 to jump ... ***H does that do for me .. fire stance gets 25% healing amp .. earth increased dice ... water a poison strike. Wind stance and finesse builds are worthless on lama right now ... this finesse change will allow them to be worth a lick.


Nowadays, my Strength monk is running Wind most of the time because it's the best DPS stance (doublestrikes), best stunning stance (because of double strikes and Ki bonus with double strikes), best Void4 stance (double strikes), best everything except attack bonus (and Ki gen is sufficient now in any stance with autocrits).
Next update, i might have to switch to Fire for Ki, but making Wind again best at everything is not the answer.

Ah all the grandmaster stances have the same double strike that was confirmed during the update 5 changes. I dont know anything about VOID builds i like having DR breaking so i am shintao personally. But you cannot compare dex builds to STR builds right now... there is not even anything you could compare.

Windstance is not the best at anything .. its the weakest stance out there right now.

AC will soon be changed to relating to a % damage absorption, modified by quest level/difficulty. No insider knowledge, but the writing's on the wall.
This will settle those complaints.

But % damage absorption doesnt help with the facts .. the facts are that survivability doesnt help you at end game especially not in epics. What are they gonna do make a direct association from AC to % .. so my 88 AC on a dex monk is gonna be 88% damage reduction? how silly is that ... i can go from not taking any damage to taking 22% damage per hit with lower hps and die twice as fast as i do now making str builds MORE effective?
All any one cares about in this game is DPS and that is a major problem when you allow people to set there own stats. This is why so many other games dont allow you to. Finesse builds are far more balanced in PnP then they are here in DDO because of bad game design. This new change makes it worse for specific classes then others but it still maintains that finesse is a high cost with low reward.

In all other games paying an additional feat would give you an advantage not a disadvantage. In this one we pay more and get less when it comes to finesse. My change brings it into balance. 1 feat for a chance at using dex for to hit and half dex for damage and a little more ki gen for dex build monks.

If a str bulid monk wants to waste a feat just for more ki gen while in wind stance (meaning they need to take a 17 dex if you read my proposal which means they are gonna be gimped DCs if full str and if they are not they wont be hitting enough as a str build anyway in epics)

If you can figure a better way to ACTUALLY BALANCE taking a feat vs not taking a feat at end game .. by all means lay it out.

[SableShadow]

What are they gonna do make a direct association from AC to % .. so my 88 AC on a dex monk is gonna be 88% damage reduction? how silly is that ... i can go from not taking any damage to taking 22% damage per hit with lower hps and die twice as fast as i do now making str builds MORE effective?

I find it difficult to credit an argument that consists of "taking zero damage is the only way I'm effective".

Taking 1/5 the damage (before DR) is the equivalent of bumping your HP*5 (not exactly, but close enough for discussion purposes) ... so your monk at, what? 300 HP? 400? is essentially standing at 1500 to 2000 HP. Is that a bad trade?

[Memek]

With the fancy red color i cant quote your post so i'll keep it short.

Re: Double Strikes,
Of course it's possible that they changed stuff and i didnt notice it, but discussions with other high level Monks lead me to believe otherwise - that you dont even know what the different stances do, and why Wind is best at everything as long as you can hit.

Re: % based absorption,
I even edited my post to add in "depending on level/difficulty" to avoid questions of that type; I suppose it wasnt clear enough with "depending on level/difficulty"... But i really, really cant be bothered to spell it out more than that.
And i never claimed that your AC value would equal the absorption value. It DEPENDS on your AC and quest level and diffculty, exact formula to be determined, max absorption 50%.

[Drfirewater79]

Why not add full or half dex bonus to str as SA damage instead (assuming the feat cost)?

The reason i say no is because currently sneak attack damage doesnt stack which means you get no real advantage and brings us back to the lack of potential that they currently have.

Full Dex bonus would peve off STR builds dispite they fact they pay nothing for there str bonus QQing is very popular amongst str builds vs dex builds in this game and the DEVs dont help the matter by catering and balancing with only STR builds in mind.

My logic:
1) Doesn't add to crit damage, so it doesn't contribute (as badly) to current stacking issues
Adding to crit damage is the main reason its needed ... it means classes that can use weapons with high crit range get a boost without str builds. Half damage means that STR builds with high crit weapons will do more damage but not so much more that dex builds are useless in comparison like they are now.

2) It's more thematic (striking the "soft spots")
Under that premise it makes sense to increase the crit range for finesse users .. striking the soft spots more often then others. But that would be completely gamebreaking because of kensai finesse build would then have a 13-20 crit range on rapiers. and would out dps even barbarians with that kind of change base on number of crits and splash damage alone.

3) It's still really, really good ... competitive as a feat in a PA/Khopesh world
Its not competitive at all what are you talking aobut .. PA Khopesh is still the biggest damage dealing booster out there. Sneak attack damage wont help if your soloing ... or if your fighting bosses and you end up with aggro or they have immunities like undead and constructs. Its about being balanced.

4) Harder to max out than str

5) More situational. More effected by having aggro, by fort/immune critters, and the (current) helplessness bonus.
That is the main reason why its not a good idea .. finesse doesnt need help during some situations .. it needs it in all situations.

6) Even at, say, 40 dex you're talking: My halfling monk sits at 38 in windstance .. its pretty hard since you have no choice but to wear TOD rings for damage ... because of no greensteel. Exceptionals are not an option for a monk.
- 15 SA (assuming full dex bonus) damage per eligible hit. That's not chicken feed, but that's about 4d6 + 1 SA damage...or the value of PA on a khopesh crit.
- 8 SA (assuming half dex bonus) damage per eligible hit. That's the value of Tharne's goggles, very situational but slightly ahead of PA on those situational targets.
if it was half damage on every hit and not just situationals it would be balanced .. 15 damage sneak attack is not balanced compared to 8 stacking with sneak attack damage (which is class, gear and enhancement dependant ATM)

The way AC is handled in game still needs to be addressed, of course.

But they wont .. and havent for the last what 2 years that players have been making this statement? They have no plans to address AC builds .. they just want to force everyone into STR builds so its easier for them to balance. This change is proof of that.

Edit: In retrospect, not so great an idea. It would be so good, at either the half or full version, that everyone with spare feats would take it.

That is why it has to be based completely on dex based builds. and have its bonus removed if you have a higher STR then DEX .. it has to be completely based on having more dex then str. That way the only balancing it does is on the straight DPS advantage. A fighter with 40 STR gets 20 points of damage ... one with a 40 dex gets only 10 points of extra damage but its balanced because of needing a feat purchase and using dex for ac.

A str build would get no advantage in fact they would lose out because they would lose a feat and require more dex then they need.

That is why i said half dex bonus (keeping str builds the top dps option) and specifically that if they gain more from STR bonus then they do from half dex bonus that the dex bonus would not apply.

This is the part people are not reading.

[phum]

Then you'd run into the problem where a 30 Strength/ 32 Dexterity build would actually lose damage for getting raged. Which on the one hand could be avoided by the player (turn off Rage) but on the other hand doesnt make sense (Rage = less AC).

No, boni for Finesse will either make Strength builds take the feat to cheese out more DPS or put Finesse builds with decent Strength at an unfair disadvantage compared to builds with dumped Strength.

Should be easy with gear to always have dex above str? I do understand, that it would result in some builds having to be more careful with their buffs to not take a hit in their dps, but I think this would not be a problem at all if they allowed us to remove any buffs at will. And it's questionable even without such ability as i don't think it's even a question about build. Just swab a str item for something else? And if you can get your str much higher than your dex, should you have finesse at all?

At least the other condition of light weapons would be needed, but ye maybe something else too.. at least if they are not going to give the ability to dismiss buffs..

[Musouka]

No they can't ... AC of epic mobs is too high so i cannot go into fire stance ... also i use shintao set so i cannot use oremi's cause i am not a henshin mystic. This is the whole point ... the change i propose balances the stances between str bulids and finesse builds still allowing str builds to get more out of dps.

"No THEY can't... I cannot." Now you're obviously saying every finesse built monk is exactly like yours? What is your dexterity that makes you so gimp you cannot hit epic mobs.

Even when I only had 32 STR I could hit epic mobs without issue. If you at least get to 32 Dex, you definitely should be able to hit epic mobs. Otherwise you either keep using those +1 wraps or just started with a base dex lower than 15.

I also disagree with the armor issue. A guildy has outwards of mid 70s AC finesse build halfling monk. Give him the right ship buffs and he gets to 80. He gets hit, but not nearly as much as everyone else.

/never sign for the idea of allowing Wind stance a greater chance to generate ki. Technically wind stance already has a better chance to generate ki than earth and water, because of extra attacks and bonus attack speed. You have more of a chance to actually produce hits.

If you're having an issue with ki, then I suggest using one of your meditations before going into a big fight. That way you go in with a good amount from the beginning. Ki strikes are supposed to be special attacks, not spells to be used at will.