Improved Feint Improved but enough?

[Roziel_Longblade]

1. I like that the mobs dont all try to run immediately after a successful feint. Still some do but it does not seem as bad as it once was.

2. I caught multiple mobs in a IFeint move a couple times. Not certain if this is from glancing blows or if it happens if mobs are very close together. Either way I like it.

3. A mostly helpless effect goes off even if the roll to make the mob sneak attackable fails. I am not sure if this is WAI but I like it.

4. The h/e rogue dilli now lets you take it and since an AC fighter is one of the few builds that can easily afford it, I say that is a good thing.

Overall I like the tweaks however I am not sure if they went far enough. Improved Feint is insanely expensive for virtually any build (13int, and 2 feats). It should be an impressive feat. Maybe make it work while holding a missile weapon? Extend the SA vulnerability to 8s or 10s.? Maybe immobilize the mob like it was stunned?

A lot can be given to the feat without it being overpowered since it takes a lot to get it.

[Angelus_dead]

3. A mostly helpless effect goes off even if the roll to make the mob sneak attackable fails. I am not sure if this is WAI but I like it.

I don't like it; it's against the concept of Bluff/Feint, infringes on Diplomacy, and directly conflicts with holding aggro.

Basically there are two main situations when someone would want to use Bluff or Feint:
1. When you have aggro because you're alone. In that case, a percentage aggro reduction is meaningless.
2. When you have aggro because you're tanking. In that case, an aggro reduction is counterproductive to your role.

I can tell that the devs were thinking that a Rogue might want to use Bluff/Feint in a 3rd situation: battles where you've accidently pulled hate aggro from teammates, but realistically that'll hardly ever happen. Rogues will have Subtle Backstabbing anyway, and if that plus target selectivity isn't enough to keep aggro off, then probably your teammates are weak and another -25% won't be enough either.

If Bluff/Feint didn't include Mostly Harmless, then that Half-Elf AC Fighter could use it to raise DPS and threat while tanking. Instead, the threat reduction will greatly outweigh the added DPS and make it harder to keep aggro. It just doesn't make sense that an enemy tricking you to get painful Sneak Attacks would make a monster less angry at that person.

Overall I like the tweaks however I am not sure if they went far enough. Improved Feint is insanely expensive for virtually any build (13int, and 2 feats).

Yes there are various ways it might be useful to buff that. Other approaches would be to put further reductions to the cumulative skill penalty, or to reduce the attack interruption, or actually include on the monster a status that amplifies incoming Sneak Attack damage.

[Alanim]

I'm actually curious if bluffing the target makes it vulnerable from all sources of sneak attack damage. As in the half-elf fighter AC tank, the rouge could bluff the mob(giving him a threat reduction), while the tank gets a DPS bonus because of sneak attacks...

Has anyone tested to see if bluff helped OTHER members of the party yet?

[Roziel_Longblade]

In general I have been testing alone but if someone sends me a tell will be happy to play with feint.

I was actually thinking the helpless feature would be good for a Tank type fighter that is not tanking but in DPS mode. It will let him continue to DPS without snagging aggro.

[Valindria]

Some things I want to know.

- Do the changes to diplo stack with threat reduction. Am I reading the release notes correctly that just increasing the skill decreases threat (as a sort of passive effect)? Or is it only when the player uses the diplo skill?
- Can you hit a bluff, go into stealth mode, and hit the active assassinate (Assassin II) skill within 4 seconds and having full aggro? Will it count as an assassinate?
- How many attacks can you get off in 4 seconds assuming full twf hasted with the spell and Haste boost 4? And another total including Acrobat II with a QStaff.

I guess I see it as being able to be a little more lazy on rogue. Granted my rogue is a lower level acrobat that gets almost no play, but I see it as pick a target and start attacking. If it turns to you hit some form of a bluff skill and continue to attack. If it is still on you hit a diplo and improved feint. If it's not dead by then blame your party. What sucks is requiring combat expertise for it as currently it's bad for most rogues. Perhaps it could be moved to being one of a rogues bonus feats. So if you wanted it with limited rogue levels you could still get it (or no rogue levels with HElf) or if you didn't want combat expertise you could still use. Would that be OP for rogues?

[Valindria]

Suggestion: Add Improved Feint as a Rogue Special ability option.