Suggestion: remove ML from tomes, add delayed release

[sephiroth1084]

Basically, I find it rather frustrating that someone who TRs with, say, a +3 Dex tome, still has to read a +1 Int tome at level 3 if they want TWF before level 7. Or that a wizard who wants more DC and skill point while they level has to read a +1 Int, +2 Int and +3 Int tome before reading their +4 Int tome at level 14, or needs to Lesser Reincarnate just to fill in the back benefits.

My suggestion, then, is to remove the ML on tomes, but to have them apply their bonuses upon being read in the same way that the tomes unload when you LR. That is, you can read that +4 tome at level 1, but it won't give you any benefit until level 3, when it will grant you a +1 bonus, a +2 at 7, etc...

[Morosy]

That actually sounds pretty good, but when done that way the effective minimum levels (for the tomes that actually matter when you eat them i.e. for feat requirements or skill points) go down by one, since it's like being able to eat a +1 int tome at level 2 and get the benefit for level 3, instead of not getting the benefit til 4, or +2 at level 6. Is that what you were intending also? I know it's that way for LR but it shouldn't be for normal tomes.

[Bobthesponge]

No.

A +4 tome is supposed to be a very complex and magical item. It has a level requirement for the same reason a +4 sword has a level requirement.

Conversely, a +1 tome should be easier to comprehend and use so there is a lower level requirement.

If you want TWF before level 7, invest more points into Dex at creation.

[sephiroth1084]

That actually sounds pretty good, but when done that way the effective minimum levels (for the tomes that actually matter when you eat them i.e. for feat requirements or skill points) go down by one, since it's like being able to eat a +1 int tome at level 2 and get the benefit for level 3, instead of not getting the benefit til 4, or +2 at level 6. Is that what you were intending also? I know it's that way for LR but it shouldn't be for normal tomes.

My OP is how reading a tome works when LRing--you still don't get your benefits until after purchasing feats, skill points etc... You could, however, go swap a feat after leveling to make use of your new stat bonus, but you could go back and do that with the way tomes work now anyway.

The tome benefits won't kick in until you are done leveling.

[shadow_419]

/signed

[sephiroth1084]

No.

A +4 tome is supposed to be a very complex and magical item. It has a level requirement for the same reason a +4 sword has a level requirement.

Yeah, they have the requirements for the same reason--game balance. My suggestion doesn't change game balance at all. What it does change is the need to LR after reading a big tome or having to read a few lesser tomes just to bridge the gap to your big tome.

Conversely, a +1 tome should be easier to comprehend and use so there is a lower level requirement.

If you want TWF before level 7, invest more points into Dex at creation.

Actually, the way it works currently is you start with a 15 Dex, read a +2 tome at level 7 then go respec your level 6 feat to ITWF. My proposal doesn't even change this. All it does is ensure that, if you start with a 14 Dex, you don't need to read a +1 tome at 3 in order to get TWF before reading your +3 tome at level 11. Instead, you read your +3 tome at level 1, gain the benefits of a +1 tome at level 3, just as if you had read a +1 tome, a +2 at 7 as if you had read such a tome, and your full +3 at 11.

If you need a flavor reason to support this...you could say that you read the tome at level 1, but didn't comprehend it all immediately. Instead, it takes time and experience to fully grasp all of the meaning that the words carried. Similar to reading, say, Dune at age 11, and not realizing all of its messages and underlying meanings until you're older.

[Bobthesponge]

So do you also suggest that your +4 sword should be used at level 1 but only get a +1 benefit?

This is an inconsistency. All you are trying to do is not have to use tomes at earlier levels. Within the game logic you are not ABLE to read or use a tome before the min level.

A better analogy is learning a language. If you are learning English, you can read "run spot run" pretty quickly, but if you open up Dune you will recognise a few words but won't have any idea what is being said until much later. It just can't be done.

[Phemt81]

Basically, I find it rather frustrating that someone who TRs with, say, a +3 Dex tome, still has to read a +1 Int tome at level 3 if they want TWF before level 7. Or that a wizard who wants more DC and skill point while they level has to read a +1 Int, +2 Int and +3 Int tome before reading their +4 Int tome at level 14, or needs to Lesser Reincarnate just to fill in the back benefits.

My suggestion, then, is to remove the ML on tomes, but to have them apply their bonuses upon being read in the same way that the tomes unload when you LR. That is, you can read that +4 tome at level 1, but it won't give you any benefit until level 3, when it will grant you a +1 bonus, a +2 at 7, etc...

Amazing idea!!!

[sephiroth1084]

So do you also suggest that your +4 sword should be used at level 1 but only get a +1 benefit?

There is a pretty significant difference in accessibility between a +1, +2, +3 and +4 sword, and a +1, +2. +3 and +4 tome. Plus, that sword you used and no longer need can be sold, traded or banked for reuse later. The same is not true for tomes, which become useless when you read a bigger one.

This is an inconsistency. All you are trying to do is not have to use tomes at earlier levels. Within the game logic you are not ABLE to read or use a tome before the min level.

Until about a year ago, you could read any tome at any level and gain the full benefits at that time. You could previously just read your +2 Int tome at level 1 and be satisfied with your extra 20 skill points and extra DC for 20 levels. The devs changed the way tomes worked, by adding minimum levels to them as a mechanic for balancing True Reincarnated characters and increasingly common unbound tomes.

And, again, I'll point out that if you read a +3 tome at level 11, then Lesser Reincarnate, that tome grants its +1 benefit at level 3 and +2 benefit at level 7, just as I'm proposing.

It looks to me like your only objection is from a flavor standpoint that didn't exist at all until about a year ago, and which doesn't seem to have any basis in the function of the game whatsoever.

[dkyle]

/signed

Makes perfect sense with the precedence from LR.

[MsEricka]

When you read a tome, you receive the benefits after you have completed the level process. What you're asking for, would technically apply the tome as soon as you hit the level, which would mean increased skill points (sure it's only two, but it still happens).

But overall, I would tend to agree to your idea but only for a true reincarnated character.

Honestly though I don't think it'll happen. The DDO store sells tomes and there is no benefit to Turbine to sell both +1 and +2 tomes if that happened. And if they did allow it, then people that bought +1 tomes would be all upset that they didn't need to buy +1's and could have just bought +2's.

[dkyle]

When you read a tome, you receive the benefits after you have completed the level process. What you're asking for, would technically apply the tome as soon as you hit the level, which would mean increased skill points (sure it's only two, but it still happens).

The OP is suggesting that tomes work, initially, the way they work on LRs. LRs apply tomes bonuses after leveling to the proper ML, not during leveling. That means, you wouldn't get, say, a +2 inherent bonus while leveling to 7. You'd only get it after leveling to 7, and so would not benefit from the higher stat for skill points and feat prereqs taken at that level.

[sephiroth1084]

Honestly though I don't think it'll happen. The DDO store sells tomes and there is no benefit to Turbine to sell both +1 and +2 tomes if that happened. And if they did allow it, then people that bought +1 tomes would be all upset that they didn't need to buy +1's and could have just bought +2's.

They also sell +1 weapons in the store...

But, yes, the DDO store is definitely a concern, from Turbine's standpoint at least, as I'm sure they do sell both +1 and +2 tomes (I expect more +2s, and really, this would likely not impact +2 tome sales at all, and may even boost them a bit), and I'm sure that there are people who purchase LRs just to get their tome bonuses reset to earlier levels. That said, the legitimacy of the request doesn't rest with whether it fits neatly into Turbine's fiscal plans, though that would certainly be grounds for their dismissing the idea. Ultimately, I don't believe their strategy for selling the Lesser Hearts of Wood is aimed at enticing tome users.

[protokon]

I don't like the idea of having to LR to have those bonuses applied at the lower level, but then again that's just another perk of lesser reincarnation.

what I would like to see if the ability to keep (or get back) our friggin +4 tomes should be true reincarnate. maybe just let them apply themselves again as the appropriate level is gained. It's currently the only piece of raid loot you don't keep upon reincarnation - unless you don't eat it beforehand.

[KanedaEX]

My suggestion, then, is to remove the ML on tomes

That makes so much sense. Come on turbine, the guy totally nailed it. Million dollar idea, grats!

[sephiroth1084]

I don't like the idea of having to LR to have those bonuses applied at the lower level, but then again that's just another perk of lesser reincarnation.

Depends on how you view LR, what you think its purpose is. Or rather, what Turbine views its purpose as.

what I would like to see if the ability to keep (or get back) our friggin +4 tomes should be true reincarnate. maybe just let them apply themselves again as the appropriate level is gained. It's currently the only piece of raid loot you don't keep upon reincarnation - unless you don't eat it beforehand.

While I'm not thrilled at the prospect of losing tomes from TRing, I don't see it as being all downside. Then again, I don't have anyone going for Completionist who would cry when a new class comes out and all the tomes accumulated over 11+ lives go to waste.

[Seliana]

Honestly I'd like to see tomes used apply after a TR as well. Why do I lose that +3 Wisdom tome if I TR? The system only encourages players to not spend money on Turbine points after using +3 or +4 tomes. Seems counter-productive to earning cash from the DDOStore to me.

[Meetch1972]

Great idea. Considering the "cost" difference between +1/2/3/4 tomes as you go up the tiers, there should be no issue with doing this as far as us players are concerned. /signed.

It's up to Turbine then to decide whether they want to wear the loss of +1/2 regular and supreme tome sales (edit: if there is any!). Such a concern should not belong to us players, never mind that the only tome purchases I've made have been from the AH/regular trading so it will make no difference to my TP balance whether they do it or not. The OP suggestion is more a convenience than anything else.

[THOTHdha]

This is a great idea. Not only does it add convenience without adding any new ability, it evens out skill point differences that come from LRing a character to take earlier advantage of a tome. This would be a great change.