A Proposal To Balance Guild Stat Shrines

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Let me begin to say that I think they're fairly overpowered at lower levels (same as Yugo pots, but that's another thread altogether). I know this is not everyone's opinion, so please stay civil if you disagree and please avoid using /notsigned without any supporting evidence/argument.

The reason: While at higher levels +2 (fully stacking) stats are the chocolate icing on the bacon cake that most toons can do without, at lower levels they are very powerful (perhaps too much so). It's silly a lvl3 Wizzie (with +2 stat item (+4 if you can get bear endurance clicky), +2 Shrine, +40Hp Yugo pot, false life spell) can sport 100+ Hps. Similar with STR, for STR-based toons (20 base, +4 bull's, +2 Shrine, +2 Yugo) 28 STR on a lowbie is pretty disgusting. I used to use PnP as a reference to highlight the big difference and power creep of DDO, however, now it's gotten so far and worse that referring to PnP for comparison is border-line useless, which is the main motivation behind my displeasure with the current stat Shrines (and yes, Yugo pots as well).

My proposal: Make them give stats at the same rate as tomes. Lvls 1-2 cannot be used at all. Lvl3-6 they give only +1 stats. Lvls 7+ the shrines give +2 stats as they're now (for those guilds that have them). While this doesn't address the Yugo pot issue (which I'm sure can be discussed at length), it does address the issue of power creep and number inflation currently pervading DDO.

[DragonTroy]

im sorry, but i really dont who this hurts. it certainly doesnt hurt the people who are getting them. the bigger the bacon cake, the better. and not to mention that anyone these low level people group with can get invited to their ship to enjoy the yummy buffs aswell. +2 strength does +1 additional to-hit and damage. kindof a small boost dont you think?

[Morosy]

+40Hp Yugo pot

You sure you're getting 40 hp from it at level 3?

Seems like it'd be 23.

[Bodic]

Let me begin to say that I think they're fairly overpowered
My proposal: Take it away from those that have earned it, because I havn't yet and its not fair.

Fixed
and its not that overpowering it is nice to have but not really a game breaker.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Fixed
and its not that overpowering it is nice to have but not really a game breaker.

I thought I kindly asked to remain civil in your replies. I suppose you don't have a true argument, so you resort to ad homs.

Edit: Thanks for neg rep. It only makes my argument stronger.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

im sorry, but i really dont who this hurts. it certainly doesnt hurt the people who are getting them. the bigger the bacon cake, the better. and not to mention that anyone these low level people group with can get invited to their ship to enjoy the yummy buffs aswell. +2 strength does +1 additional to-hit and damage. kindof a small boost dont you think?

+1 Dmg (and to-hit), +1 AC (and REFLEX saves), 20 Hps (and +1 FORTITUDE saves), +1 DC for casters, (and extra +1 WIS AC to monks, +1 to WILLPOWER saves). All stacking with items, potions, enahncements. Yes, that's the very definition of overpowered.

[shadow_419]

You do know that +2 con does not give you 20 hps at lower levels correct?

[voodoogroves]

Personal opinion follows ...


I kinda think the DC boosts for casters is the largest benefit, but that's me. With the bajillion ways to boost things like STR, a +2 STR or DEX, etc. shrine really isn't that game breaking.

A max-stat caster that starts 18 + all levels and enhancements + reasonable items doesn't have many other places to nab DC boosts. There are no Madstone Goggles or Hats of Titans Mental Grip ... the impact of a +2 stat shrine for a DC based caster is far more significant than the physical stats or other misc buffs.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

You do know that +2 con does not give you 20 hps at lower levels correct?

I'm well aware and you are correct in that regard.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Personal opinion follows ...


I kinda think the DC boosts for casters is the largest benefit, but that's me. With the bajillion ways to boost things like STR, a +2 STR or DEX, etc. shrine really isn't that game breaking.

A max-stat caster that starts 18 + all levels and enhancements + reasonable items doesn't have many other places to nab DC boosts. There are no Madstone Goggles or Hats of Titans Mental Grip ... the impact of a +2 stat shrine for a DC based caster is far more significant than the physical stats or other misc buffs.

Add to that +1 to enchantment from Phiarlan boat NPC and +1 Conjuration from Twelve boat NPC.

[shadow_419]

I'm well aware and you are correct in that regard.

Just checking, because with you referencing +2 con shrine(20hp at lvl 20) and yugo con pots (+2 con & 20hp) as giving you 40 hp at low levels, I wasn't sure if you were aware.

[skunk]

i just wish they would remove boats all together. That or just use them to move to place to place faster.

I do like your thing of when you can use the shrines. I hate someone joining group, oh i have to run get buffs. You don't need buffs at level 3. I can solo every thing were doing, so just shut up and come on, by the time your here, we could have finished 3 dungeons on elite.

they need to do something. Players are to lazy now days. Hell i don't normally even go to my ship, unless someone needs on my guilds.

[Impaqt]

+1 Dmg (and to-hit), +1 AC (and REFLEX saves), 20 Hps (and +1 FORTITUDE saves), +1 DC for casters, (and extra +1 WIS AC to monks, +1 to WILLPOWER saves). All stacking with items, potions, enahncements. Yes, that's the very definition of overpowered.

Bulls Strength Clicky or Pot +2 To Hit and Damage
Rage Pot +1 To Hit and damage +2 Con (Few hit points)
Cats Grace Pot +2 AC and Reflex Saves
owls Wisdom Pot +2 WILLPOWER saves!!!! +2 DC
Heroism Pot +2 to hit and +2 to ALL saves
Divine Favor Clicky +1 to hit and Damage
Korthos Island Kits and Items +2 to Hit, +1 To Hit, + Spell Points yada yada yada....


Gettin too long....

Seriously, the boat buffs dont push anything "Over the edge" Buffs are part of the game, the boat buffs moderately useful at ALL character levels.... Good players spend a few days at "Low levels" New Players and Poor players need all the help they can get.. Boat buffs are hardly worth worrying about.

[Nodia]

Must people always cry for a nerf of something. If you don't like it don't use it. Make your on LFM saying no ship buffed people. There is enough things wrong with this game for the Devs to fix without suggestions to fix someone elses game play. Worry about yourself not everyone else!

[shadow_419]

Add to that +1 to enchantment from Phiarlan boat NPC and +1 Conjuration from Twelve boat NPC.

Either of which can be found on ml4 scepters and doesn't stack with any item giving you spell focus in those particular schools. Not exactly op in my book. It's not like most experienced casters aren't running around with masters touch + bulls str and killing stuff anyway at low lvls.

[Thorzian]

if you don't like it, don't use it. you dont think they've thrown aenough nerf at us already now you're after our ships?

[voodoogroves]

Bulls Strength Clicky or Pot +2 To Hit and Damage
Rage Pot +1 To Hit and damage +2 Con (Few hit points)
Cats Grace Pot +2 AC and Reflex Saves
owls Wisdom Pot +2 WILLPOWER saves!!!! +2 DC
Heroism Pot +2 to hit and +2 to ALL saves
Divine Favor Clicky +1 to hit and Damage
Korthos Island Kits and Items +2 to Hit, +1 To Hit, + Spell Points yada yada yada....


Gettin too long....

Seriously, the boat buffs dont push anything "Over the edge" Buffs are part of the game, the boat buffs moderately useful at ALL character levels.... Good players spend a few days at "Low levels" New Players and Poor players need all the help they can get.. Boat buffs are hardly worth worrying about.

The only ones we keep with regularity on our small guild ship are XP, Navigator and casting-stat boosters.

The bulk of guild buffs aren't truly worth the time in many cases. I only even accept invites from larger guilds when I'm about to do an epic raid. Not an epic, but an epic raid (or equivalent - I'd probably take them for VOD elite - but only if I was near the portal).

+1 DC on my wizard though ... I'll take that whenever, wherever and however I can.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

It's like a TR, all that work for just a tiny reward. A guild works together to build something and they get a reward for it. I don't see an issue with this. You figure by the time the primary population of a guild raises into something capable of supporting +2 shrines that they are getting tired of low level content and just want to get it over with quickly. The amenities help ease the crawl out of lower level areas. I find them very helpful on my road to completionist. I wouldn't want to see them changed as I like them where they are. Having to go back to the ship every hour seems more than a fair trade as far as I'm concerned.

[sephiroth1084]

I agree that they are a bit much, but not sure they are too over the top to be in need of an adjustment. And, honestly, I feel like the bigger problem is in the stacking of multiple buffs, rather than simply the stat shrines. +1 attack from Str shrine, +2 from dummy (after 20 minutes spent beating it down), +1 from kobold... +1 attack and damage from the Str shrine is pretty minor, but +4 attack at level 3 is a pretty big deal. Heck, it's a pretty big deal for basically all of the game before level 14 or so and after level 19.


I wouldn't be against delayed-release stats based on levels similar to the way tomes function, but don't think they're really necessary, either.

[Lithic]

+1 Dmg (and to-hit), +1 AC (and REFLEX saves), 20 Hps (and +1 FORTITUDE saves), +1 DC for casters, (and extra +1 WIS AC to monks, +1 to WILLPOWER saves). All stacking with items, potions, enahncements. Yes, that's the very definition of overpowered.

What you describe is slightly less than the completionist feat. I see that increase at lvl 3 every time I TR and I can tell you the difference before and after is not as big as you think. The twink items (which all characters can get and use) are MUCH more of a factor.