Ki gen, how are they addressing this issue?

[QuantumFX]

As I said, I'm all in favor of finding a way to add to stunning fist for Monks in a similar way to how fighters work. This thread seems to full of folks who simply don't want another class to share in what they already have.

I’m not seeing anyone in here requesting that Turbine “Nerf fighters”. The general sentiment I’m seeing is “Buff monks”. And now that ki is deemed a “limited resource” the old way of covering up the problem (If at first you don’t succeed, hit your Stunning Fist hotkey in 5… 4… 3… 2…) won’t work. This means Turbine needs to approach the problem from a different direction.

No fighter in their right mind took stunning fist before update 9, the DC penalty far outweighed any benefit they could trow at it from enhancements.

Actually, I have seen it on 8 Monk/12 Fighter builds. They also tend to work in Stunning Blow on their builds as well.

Fighters have to pay for that extra DC they are getting, are you eager to spend some of your current AP on stunning fist?

Actually, if they offered the generic enhancement at the same level as a fighter it would be the very first enhancement I would take. If you haven’t noticed the monk class has no meaningful enhancements until level 2 when they can finally pick up Void Strike I, Monk WIS I and the 1st tier of their Animal path. I pointed this out to Eladrin before U8, and he even read it. But, according to him, being forced to choose between Human Versatility I and Monk Balance I is considered a “difficult choice” rather than “an unnecessary screwing over of human characters.”

Would you pay the 30 ap needed for a kensei 3 to get the full +7 dc that fighters have available to get that bonus on your current monk? Or how about just the 10 it takes to get the full stunning blow line for +4? You might but certainly you would be giving up something else to do it and so are they.

Well, I already have to pay 22-24APs for Shintao Monk III which could give me some passive enhancements to one of the feats that’s a prereq for it. And I would defiantely consider a +4 Stun DC chain to be in competition with my only other meaningful choice. (The Void Strike line.) And, as mentioned above, I would gladly spend 1-2 APs at level 1 for a useful enhancement rather than random skill bonus +1.

[Antheal]

Really? Where? I happen to be something of an expert in 3.5 game mechanics and in feats specifically as I spent 6 years as the editor of the netbook of feats.

LOL

+1 for making me laugh.

Or at least I would, but need to spread it around a bit more first...

[Chai]

Would you pay the 30 ap needed for a kensei 3 to get the full +7 dc that fighters have available to get that bonus on your current monk? Or how about just the 10 it takes to get the full stunning blow line for +4? You might but certainly you would be giving up something else to do it and so are they.

And what exactly does kensai give up that matters? They do more DPS than a monk does. They get more DC on their stuns, and bonus damage for every tier.

We can roll up 8 monk 12 fighter, and do similar DPS, if not superior DPS to a monk, have better DCs, all 3 AP boni to str, HP boni, still have evasion, higher sustainable str, and not have to rely on TOD which is now situational, AND to top it all off, take all fighter haste boosts and STILL get stunning blow on top of stunning fist, both being viable.

What exactly, besides NOTHING, does this build give up? DR 10/epic -vs- having 650 hp over the 450 youd have as a monk? We can slot half of that DR back.

Kensai already pay that AP for stunning blow if they are smart. Now they tack on stunning fist for a few points of wis. Alot more comes with that AP cpst than just the DC ramp ups, so hells yes Id pay it, for the total package, becasuse its now superior to pure monk that many more ways from Sunday.

[Angelus_dead]

What exactly, besides NOTHING, does this build give up? DR 10/epic -vs- having 650 hp over the 450 youd have as a monk? We can slot half of that DR back.

It is a design flaw that high hp is as important as it is. The real cause of that is that healers can refill hp in chunks that are too large.

Until that is fixed, classes with higher hp will have relatively more survivability than they should. (That's not an easy thing to fix. Note that Warcraft's design fell into that situation once, and the only way those devs could solve it was to increase the level cap and make the new levels raise everyone's hp, but not improve healing spells)

[sigtrent]

I agree that monks should not be able to obtain a higher stunning fist DC than a fighter but I do not agree that fighters can obtain a higher stunning fist. You appear to be assuming I think that stunning fist should be exclusive to the monk.

I'm arguing with a few different people. Many seem to feel monk should be superior but if not you then we are not so much in disagreement. My presumption is people are against the change to the stunning fist feat who are upset with the change.

Stunning fist is not only a feat it's a class option for monks as designed in 3.5 mechanics.

They get easy access to it, but it is not a class ability. It is a feat that any character can take.

Kinda like TWF for a ranger. Other classes can take it but they have to spend build points to get a high dexterity score to get it.

Indeed and rangers having access to TWF doesn't mean the should be as good or better at it than other classes, only that it is available to them at a discount.

I no way believe that stunning fist is the only thing that defines a monk. It clearly is their most powerful option in high end content atm though.

For some monks it is, but not for all of them. It is a build option and not a class feature. But some are saying monks are nerfed because fighters can do something monks did, only a bit better. How is that a nerf?

What I do believe is that the monk should be better (or at least as good) at using stunning fist than any other class for the obvious reason *it's stunning "fist"* the same reasoning behind the monks design in 3.5.

Then we aren't much apart. I'd love to see monks get an enhancement line for stunning fist/blow or perhaps get kensei as a neither light nor dark path prestige. But regardless if they get it or not, I think the change to stunning fist is a good one giving builds other than pure monks decent use of it.

[sigtrent]

I’m not seeing anyone in here requesting that Turbine “Nerf fighters”.

My impression was people wanted stunning fist to be changed back to monk levels rather than character levels. And really I got in this debate to say that ki should not be entirely fire at will by design but more something you need to strategicly pace out to some extent. I think the fighter stunning fist thing came up from talking about kensei ki generation... another good reason to consider kensei as a monk prestige, though the feat requirements would be an obstacle there... Something with similar benefits would be good though.

Actually, if they offered the generic enhancement at the same level as a fighter it would be the very first enhancement I would take. If you haven’t noticed the monk class has no meaningful enhancements until level 2 when they can finally pick up Void Strike I, Monk WIS I and the 1st tier of their Animal path. I pointed this out to Eladrin before U8, and he even read it. But, according to him, being forced to choose between Human Versatility I and Monk Balance I is considered a “difficult choice” rather than “an unnecessary screwing over of human characters.”

Low level monk has little to pick from, agreed. Though at cap I find my monk builds hard pressed with difficult choices in enhancement points. I'm with you on them (and rangers) having little meaningful choice at lower levels (and rangers tend to have few significant choices at high level as well).

Well, I already have to pay 22-24APs for Shintao Monk III which could give me some passive enhancements to one of the feats that’s a prereq for it. And I would defiantely consider a +4 Stun DC chain to be in competition with my only other meaningful choice. (The Void Strike line.) And, as mentioned above, I would gladly spend 1-2 APs at level 1 for a useful enhancement rather than random skill bonus +1.

The first two ranks would certainly be worth while. I'm not sure on the others. I'm all for having monk get such an enhancement line.

[sigtrent]

And what exactly does kensai give up that matters? They do more DPS than a monk does. They get more DC on their stuns, and bonus damage for every tier.

Stalwart defender, armor mastery, Toughness, DC on trip, Racial enhancements, Strength, etc... Points are points and fighters hae other things they can spend points on beyond stunning fist. Most kensei are not running stunning blow or stunning fist and putting points into it. They tend to go for maximum strength and DPS and if they go tactics they have to make sacrifices in DPS to do it. Most Kensei are Kopesh specialists not unarmed specialists. There are a few builds out there that do it, but its far from common because you have to give up on the best DPS options fighters have available.

We can roll up 8 monk 12 fighter, and do similar DPS, if not superior DPS to a monk, have better DCs, all 3 AP boni to str, HP boni, still have evasion, higher sustainable str, and not have to rely on TOD which is now situational, AND to top it all off, take all fighter haste boosts and STILL get stunning blow on top of stunning fist, both being viable.

Then perhaps thats a character you should make.

What exactly, besides NOTHING, does this build give up? DR 10/epic -vs- having 650 hp over the 450 youd have as a monk? We can slot half of that DR back

Stat it up and find out. Touch of death is one thing it won't have, also tier 3 stances and ki moves, leap of faith, improved evasion and a few other goodies. Also lower base damage of course though fighter gets a lot of flat bonuses. Also lower DC's on moves based on monk level, ac bonuses, lower saving throws, poison immunity... and other stuff as well. Don't care about all those monk abilities.... then why be a full monk?

I see this argument over and over. "There is this one ability that defines a class for me, and I am annoyed that some other class can do it as well or better, ya there are other class abilities that make up the full class, but I don't personally care about those but I wont make that other class or combo because I like my class even though I don't care about all its powers..." And I just don't get it. If you thing something else is better overall... then you should play it. If you don't care about the features of your class, why stick to it?

Kensai already pay that AP for stunning blow if they are smart.

Not if they don't like running stunning weapons. If you aren't using stunning as a focus, then there isn't much point in spending AP on it. Its a great feat, but its not for everyone and if you ignore it you can get more DPS out of your build. Or if you just have it and trow it, then its not worth a big investment of AP.

Now they tack on stunning fist for a few points of wis.

Only if they are already unarmed spec'd, which most aren't.

[Junts]

Stalwart defender, armor mastery, Toughness, DC on trip, Racial enhancements, Strength, etc... Points are points and fighters hae other things they can spend points on beyond stunning fist. Most kensei are not running stunning blow or stunning fist and putting points into it. They tend to go for maximum strength and DPS and if they go tactics they have to make sacrifices in DPS to do it. Most Kensei are Kopesh specialists not unarmed specialists. There are a few builds out there that do it, but its far from common because you have to give up on the best DPS options fighters have available.



Then perhaps thats a character you should make.



Stat it up and find out. Touch of death is one thing it won't have, also tier 3 stances and ki moves, leap of faith, improved evasion and a few other goodies. Also lower base damage of course though fighter gets a lot of flat bonuses. Also lower DC's on moves based on monk level, ac bonuses, lower saving throws, poison immunity... and other stuff as well. Don't care about all those monk abilities.... then why be a full monk?

I see this argument over and over. "There is this one ability that defines a class for me, and I am annoyed that some other class can do it as well or better, ya there are other class abilities that make up the full class, but I don't personally care about those but I wont make that other class or combo because I like my class even though I don't care about all its powers..." And I just don't get it. If you thing something else is better overall... then you should play it. If you don't care about the features of your class, why stick to it?



Not if they don't like running stunning weapons. If you aren't using stunning as a focus, then there isn't much point in spending AP on it. Its a great feat, but its not for everyone and if you ignore it you can get more DPS out of your build. Or if you just have it and trow it, then its not worth a big investment of AP.



Only if they are already unarmed spec'd, which most aren't.

This is inaccurate, kensei on live can presently spec so high in stunning blow that a stunning 10 weapon is unnecessary.

That's part of the problem here: kensei have such ah uge set of bonuses its completely out of control. 3 from pre, 4 from enhancements, 4 more from power surge is +11 stunning blow!

[Tirisha]

This is inaccurate, kensei on live can presently spec so high in stunning blow that a stunning 10 weapon is unnecessary.

That's part of the problem here: kensei have such ah uge set of bonuses its completely out of control. 3 from pre, 4 from enhancements, 4 more from power surge is +11 stunning blow!

This is true.

Also worth noting is fighters have AP to spare after taking all the dps enhancements while taking multiple wpn specialization enhancements. (the amount varies on race).

[Angelus_dead]

That's part of the problem here: kensei have such ah uge set of bonuses its completely out of control. 3 from pre, 4 from enhancements, 4 more from power surge is +11 stunning blow!

That reminds me, they need to add Improved Unarmed Strike as a general feat so that Frenzied Berserkers can qualify for Stunning Fist...

[sigtrent]

This is inaccurate, kensei on live can presently spec so high in stunning blow that a stunning 10 weapon is unnecessary.

10 + str (say 15 for a well buffed fighter) + 10 from enhancements (at steep cost)... thats 35. Well below the kinds of numbers folks here are saying is way too low to have any decent effect and which clearly needs buffing. Or are we talking about multiple past life fighters here? If thats the case I find such characters well outside common experience or the need for serious game balance concern.

That's part of the problem here: kensei have such ah uge set of bonuses its completely out of control. 3 from pre, 4 from enhancements, 4 more from power surge is +11 stunning blow!

And yet that is only 1 point more than what a monk got for taking a single feat instead of many enhancements and feats for a feat that has a cool-down three times longer than stunning fist.

[Junts]

10 + str (say 15 for a well buffed fighter) + 10 from enhancements (at steep cost)... thats 35. Well below the kinds of numbers folks here are saying is way too low to have any decent effect and which clearly needs buffing. Or are we talking about multiple past life fighters here? If thats the case I find such characters well outside common experience or the need for serious game balance concern.



And yet that is only 1 point more than what a monk got for taking a single feat instead of many enhancements and feats for a feat that has a cool-down three times longer than stunning fist.

A good fighter has way the heck more than 40 strength.

A wf or dwarf would have one more, but lets pick the more common half orc.

20 base
5 levels
9 itemry
2 tomeage
4 enhancements
8 power surge
--
48
2 rage
2 madstone rage
2 yugoloth
2 boat buff
--
54

that's +22 str modifier, or a 42 stunning blow without a stunning weapon. There's more str brackets available also (abishai, a +7 item and the last enhancement) as well. It could be as high as 44-45 with high-end epic equipment. Even a human is over 40. The blitz builds (12 kensai with barb rages) go even higher because of their higher str (twf blitzes can break the 60 str barrier quite easily, and only lose the tier 3 pre +1 to stunning blow in return).

note: i have no problem with stunning fist fighters and in fact I think they like that synergy because kensai, even kensai 3, has built-in interaction with monk. They want 12kensai and 18kensai with monk levels to be a conceptually synergistic.

What monks do with dcs and crowd control goes far past stunning fist, and its clear that fighters are the unparalleled gods of stunning tactics.

[Rasati]

i am quiet a slow-leveling, casual player, but what really made the monk the first and only character i managed to bring to lv. 18 was the fast-paced gameplay.

okay, so it was not intended that monks gain such an abundance of ki on stunned mobs and i have no idea if monks, before u9, did damage too close to fighters or barbarians that such a hefty ki-decrease was necessary. But what i really care about. if i -do- reroll and aim for 12/8 in my next life. what ensures that this stunning-fist on char-level thing stays that way? or that the design decision for Monks doesnt flip once again after you have realized you missjudged the whole thing?

i rolled a pure class so i wouldnt have to deal with such fundamental changes that would force me to reroll. Such things are just discouraging and make me want to take a break with the game and see how the events are turning out. I have just lost a lot of trust.

[Aesop]

That reminds me, they need to add Improved Unarmed Strike as a general feat so that Frenzied Berserkers can qualify for Stunning Fist...

Totally Agree.


and superior unarmed strike as well to grant better damage



Also to help with Monks Stunning Fist and other tactical DC why not have Water Stance add +1 per tier to Tactical Feat DCs

Heck you could even have it add +2 per tier or +1 for the first 2 tiers and +2 for tiers 3 & 4

Aesop

[edgarallanpoe]

Also to help with Monks Stunning Fist and other tactical DC why not have Water Stance add +1 per tier to Tactical Feat DCs

Heck you could even have it add +2 per tier or +1 for the first 2 tiers and +2 for tiers 3 & 4

Aesop

I agree, but to be fair it already does that (kind of) with the bonus to Wis. The +2, +3, &+4 bonus to Wis already gives those bonuses. Granting an additional bonus to DCs across the board would be nice, no question. This would make Water stance a viable option.

However, the problem would still reside with Ki regen because you wouldn't be able to use the strikes and take advantage of the improved DCs if you don't have the Ki.

Interesting point though.

[shockblade]

One way they could improve ki generation is to increase the amount of ki monks generate over time based on level. Something like generate 1 ki for every 4 monk levels per minute up to the level of ki where it starts to degenerate which is based on level and concentration skill, if I remember correctly. That way monks could still fire off certain moves (ie, stunning fist to start a fight or light monk buffs) but it would be harder to spam a series of strikes and moves every fight.

[ckorik]

To paraphrase a great statement from another thread:

I realize that monk strikes are more powerful than any piece of raid loot. And in a desire to allow the devs to challenge me I think they should put some limits on how easy it is to generate ki. Too allow players too still use ki, but not to trivialize any fight.

I realize that with ki generation as it is, the devs cannot truly challenge us or any other player in basic combat.

I realized that I have a Desire for a more challenging game or at least the option to play more challenging content within this game.

[Aesop]

I agree, but to be fair it already does that (kind of) with the bonus to Wis. The +2, +3, &+4 bonus to Wis already gives those bonuses. Granting an additional bonus to DCs across the board would be nice, no question. This would make Water stance a viable option.

However, the problem would still reside with Ki regen because you wouldn't be able to use the strikes and take advantage of the improved DCs if you don't have the Ki.

Interesting point though.

Yeah I realized that water stance gave the bonus to Wisdom but I figured it needs more at least a +1 DC per tier inorder to make DCs more viable .

In an earlier post I suggested taking the benefit of Ki Generation OUT of the Stances entirely and put them into the leveling of Monk.

1 1 ki per HIT
4 +1 ki per CRIT
8 +2(total) ki per CRIT
12 2 ki per HIT
16 +3 Ki per CRIT
20 +4 Ki per CRIT


anything else should only add to Ki generation per CRIT with the change to Stunning and helplessness higher Crit Ki won't be as powerful as it once was.


Oh and for Fire stance I suggested +1 Damage for unarmed light 1 handed and thrown weapons per tier and +2 for Two handed weapons and Ranged weapon per tier as well as +1 Seeker per tier... can't remember if anything else was in there


Aesop

[rincemeister]

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere in this or other threads but doesn't seem a little strange that monks have to have their special abilities limited by both ki generation and cooldowns ? I'm all for having to manage my ki , but I don't believe we should be limited by cooldown as well. The cooldowns of all our abilities were established in an evironment of abudant ki and it was the cooldowns that were the limiting factor in the use of those abilities. Now that ki generation is being severely curtailed I'd like to see cooldowns of abilities greatly reduced or removed entirely. The ability to hold and maintain a larger ki pool would therefore become more important and provide an advantage to pure monks over the monk splash.

[Junts]

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere in this or other threads but doesn't seem a little strange that monks have to have their special abilities limited by both ki generation and cooldowns ? I'm all for having to manage my ki , but I don't believe we should be limited by cooldown as well. The cooldowns of all our abilities were established in an evironment of abudant ki and it was the cooldowns that were the limiting factor in the use of those abilities. Now that ki generation is being severely curtailed I'd like to see cooldowns of abilities greatly reduced or removed entirely. The ability to hold and maintain a larger ki pool would therefore become more important and provide an advantage to pure monks over the monk splash.

The cooldowns on nearly every monk ability ecept touch of death are negligble and serve only to slow you down ab it if you run into a fight with a full ki bar.

Think about it: stunning blow has a 15s cooldown, fist has a 6s cooldown. Do you really think that the developers intended monks to stun 2.5x as often as everyone else? the thing that slows fist down is supposed to be the ki resource.