Ki gen, how are they addressing this issue?

[Drfirewater79]

Hey all,

Last week I read and responded in a thread that talked about ki gen and after some fooling around i found in firestance i was still ok and air stance while i suffered compared to live i was fine while fooling around.

But I WAS WRONG ... wow ... was i ever. So I wanted to see be it that i spend alot of time on my monk soloing sins while waiting for raids to start forming or while waiting for my epic group to get together. So i went to lama to see how things have changed.

I dont wear oremis necklace because i use the shintao set bonus as a light monk. I am a dex wis build (highest ac i have hit so far is 87) and quite enjoy running hard sins on live having a 37 umd helps alot with that as does the 70's self buffed AC. So first off I should not be forced into fire stance to generate the required KI .. that is already a major sign of bad programing.
But all that aside with my standard use of stun (now for CC) quivering palm and earth wind and fire dance CC i found myself without enough ki several times to preform basic attacks. Then i hopped into fire stance ... figured why not its not like i miss with a 34 dex dont NEED a 38 dex to hit. But i still found times where i didn't have enough ki for my special attacks.

PLUS .. smite tainted totally sucks now .. because i cannot crit on stun it does almost no damage at all and has a long cool down and hi ki cost for nothing and only works on specific types of mobs anyway.

KI gen needs to be addressed.

Can anyone point me to a DEV response that talks about future plans for ki gen .. cause as it is on lama (this weekends version) i cant see me playing my monk much at all.. and since its the one class i actually really enjoy playing ... i dont know why i would want to log in. Its been hard enough to log in this last two weeks ... almost seems pointless given the changes.

[Jahmin]

QFT
/signed

Not going to be changed though

[Tirisha]

if they made more viable options for slotting +1Ki generation per strike it would be a step towards resolving the issue.

The main problem though is that ki generation for a monk does not increase as you gain levels. There is a few options that you can choose in enhancements but they all eliminate other paths. A Lv 20 capped monk that doesn't use oremis or firestance has a similar Ki generation and Ki consumption too a lv 1 monk 19 *anything with stunning fist*. Even worse is Fighters now use ki more efficiently due too a higher stunning fist DC.

I'd suggest a progression of a 25% chance to generate an extra ki per sucessful strike. progressing every 5 monk lvs for a 100% chance to generate 2 ki per strike at pure lv 20.

[sigtrent]

Honestly I don't think the original design for monk was that you can constantly use all your Ki attacks with no pause for generating Ki, at least not for the really powerful ones.

Some of the dev posts pretty much spell that out.

[Angelus_dead]

But all that aside with my standard use of stun (now for CC) quivering palm and earth wind and fire dance CC i found myself without enough ki several times to preform basic attacks. Then i hopped into fire stance ... figured why not its not like i miss with a 34 dex dont NEED a 38 dex to hit. But i still found times where i didn't have enough ki for my special attacks.

It is good that you sometimes didn't have enough Ki to use some attacks. Ki is supposed to be the limiting factor of Monk special abilities; to press Stunning Fist every 6 seconds is not an entitlement.

But the imbalance between fire and other stances (and between oremi and other necklaces) is a problem that needs to be addressed. Since Ki is such a central part of being a Monk, those options shouldn't provide such incredibly higher income than the alternatives.

Another problem with Monks is that moderate defensive stats aren't as valuable as they should be; someone with 5 AC should be worse off than someone with 45, but in Sins Hard they get hit exactly the same. This makes many monk features less useful than they should be, reducing their advantages compared to higher-DPS classes.

PLUS .. smite tainted totally sucks now .. because i cannot crit on stun it does almost no damage at all and has a long cool down and hi ki cost for nothing and only works on specific types of mobs anyway.

Yes, Smite Tainted has always been a bad design and in need of improvement to approximate the power of Exalted Smite. Plus it incorrectly doesn't function on the Fiendish trolls/trogs/spiders on Shavarath.

[Junts]

It is good that you sometimes didn't have enough Ki to use some attacks. Ki is supposed to be the limiting factor of Monk special abilities; to press Stunning Fist every 6 seconds is not an entitlement.

But the imbalance between fire and other stances (and between oremi and other necklaces) is a problem that needs to be addressed. Since Ki is such a central part of being a Monk, those options shouldn't provide such incredibly higher income than the alternatives.

Another problem with Monks is that moderate defensive stats aren't as valuable as they should be; someone with 5 AC should be worse off than someone with 45, but in Sins Hard they get hit exactly the same. This makes many monk features less useful than they should be, reducing their advantages compared to higher-DPS classes.


Yes, Smite Tainted has always been a bad design and in need of improvement to approximate the power of Exalted Smite. Plus it incorrectly doesn't function on the Fiendish trolls/trogs/spiders on Shavarath.

Exalted Smite is also not very good, primarily because paladins have such a limited number of them.

Granted smite tainted is worse, but at least you can use it more than 10 times ever.

[TheDearLeader]

Yes, Smite Tainted has always been a bad design and in need of improvement to approximate the power of Exalted Smite.

No....

Exalted Smite is also not very good, primarily because paladins have such a limited number of them.

Granted smite tainted is worse, but at least you can use it more than 10 times ever.

Yes.

[Linenoise2]

This change is intentional and WAI. You will find a dev saying this in the other Ki generation thread. You will have to browse thru that if you want to see it for yourself.

Basically if you are not in Fire stance you are SOL.

From my personal tests it is not too bad (albeit very noticeable) if you play solo, you will still be able to generate enough ki, it will just take a little longer. The real problem is when you are in full groups. You will never generate sufficient Ki in full groups or raids no matter what stance you are in and what gear you use.

The short and skinny of it is this:
The Devs hate monks and/or do not know how to play monks. :P

[Angelus_dead]

Exalted Smite is also not very good, primarily because paladins have such a limited number of them.
Granted smite tainted is worse, but at least you can use it more than 10 times ever.

At least Exalted Smite is never worse than using a regular attack!

[TheDearLeader]

At least Exalted Smite is never worse than using a regular attack!

It is on a 1.

[Drfirewater79]

Honestly I don't think the original design for monk was that you can constantly use all your Ki attacks with no pause for generating Ki, at least not for the really powerful ones.

Some of the dev posts pretty much spell that out.

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have. If your an AC monk you are completely useless at end game (including epics but not only in) because without ki you cannot do enough dps to kill mobs ... you cannot build ki fast enough to take advantage of extra damage or healing from ki strikes (pending on monk pre) and things like Smite Tainted and other HI KI COST attacks which already require some pause for ki generation are also made completely useless because of the changes to crit production for monks.

Ki strikes are how monks are balanced out to fighters and barbarians (and even then they are poorly balanced) with a 19-20 crit range monks are now worthless.

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

For AC a defender build can use scimitars and get higher ac if built right can grab intimidate and hold full aggro using intimidate (my defender has a 88 AC over 90 if buffed right in raids ... and has a fraction of the gear no yugoloth pots as my Monk who hits 87 fully raid buffed with yugoloth pots) and they do compareable damage when you add fighter attack boost and higher crit rates and procs from greensteel (another monk short coming)

For KI GENERATION .. a fighter has it better two levels of monk rest fighter using longswords can generate and use ki more effectively then a full monk? makes no sense at all does it.

For healing - not even as good as free spells for radient servant
For buffs - not nearly as good as barb buffs and last only 1 min making them useless especially if you cannot build ki fast enough to use them.
For CC - not nearly as high DC as fighters or barbs for stuns and not nearly as high as casters for holds and caster holds are mass not single target.

without KI monks are worthless. This update makes monks worthless. Cant take advantage of Quivering palm if you never have enough ki to use it.

[Drfirewater79]

This change is intentional and WAI. You will find a dev saying this in the other Ki generation thread. You will have to browse thru that if you want to see it for yourself.

Basically if you are not in Fire stance you are SOL.

From my personal tests it is not too bad (albeit very noticeable) if you play solo, you will still be able to generate enough ki, it will just take a little longer. The real problem is when you are in full groups. You will never generate sufficient Ki in full groups or raids no matter what stance you are in and what gear you use.

The short and skinny of it is this:
The Devs hate monks and/or do not know how to play monks. :P

I had a problem generating ki SOLO in sins on HARD where mobs have more hps.

But i completely agree with you on the last two lines. Eladrin you disappoint me sir .. your suppost to be the one who understands the monk class... and it appears more and more you do not understand its use in game at all.
Sad ...

[Angelus_dead]

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have.

You can't convince the devs with things as directly false as that. If you think Monks need more offensive power than they have, you could make a case for that. But it doesn't help to pretend their other features simply don't exist.

Try finishing this sentence: "Monks deserve a Stunning Fist every six seconds without interference with other Ki needs because ..."

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

See, for that to be interpreted as a problem would require some serious justification. Doing tons of damage is an intentional benefit of Kensei and Frenzied Berserker.

[Drfirewater79]

It is on a 1.

But the monk smite is only good on 19-20 vs specific types of mobs only.

The monk one is worthless and with lower ki generation I dont even keep it on my bar anymore on lama because it doesnt add up in value.

If it was auto crit and cost 10 ki per use with a 10 second cool down then it might be worth looking at .. but right now its completely worthless Especially on monks that need it ... dex based ones.

AC toons unless they are fighters or palidans are totally put out by this update. And as someone who plays my dex based monk 90% of the time .. this update has put me out as well.

[Drfirewater79]

You can't convince the devs with things as directly false as that. If you think Monks need more offensive power than they have, you could make a case for that. But it doesn't help to pretend their other features simply don't exist.

Try finishing this sentence: "Monks deserve a Stunning Fist every six seconds without interference with other Ki needs because ..."

... without those minor advantages they cannot fill the roles required of there class.

Monks are a melee dps class or support AC class. PERIOD.

They generate LOWER DPS then nearly every other Melee DPS class in this update making them a worse choice in parties for DPS. AC is meaningless at end game and without ki gen AC monks cannot generate enough DPS to be valued in quests.

There stun and dances are not auto land (especially not on hard and elite) and have a short duration period so they are not as effective as casters for CC.

Since a monk is not a competitive DPS .. its not competitive as support class (cause bards and casters far out do them for DCs and ability to cast at will, mana pots dont work for monks and if they did ki degeneration would be a bigger issue) ... and they do less dps then other AC builds which get higher AC then they do.

As i pointed out ... Monks are worthless compared to every other class and role currently in this next update and its entirely because of lack of ability to use there special powers.

Ki gen and ability to use these special powers are how a monk makes up for all its downsides compared to every other class in the game. Lets not even go into greensteel handwraps. But balance is a big issue for monks and the developers are crippling an already weakened class with this change.

If its WAI .. then the devs are not.

[Junts]

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have. If your an AC monk you are completely useless at end game (including epics but not only in) because without ki you cannot do enough dps to kill mobs ... you cannot build ki fast enough to take advantage of extra damage or healing from ki strikes (pending on monk pre) and things like Smite Tainted and other HI KI COST attacks which already require some pause for ki generation are also made completely useless because of the changes to crit production for monks.

Ki strikes are how monks are balanced out to fighters and barbarians (and even then they are poorly balanced) with a 19-20 crit range monks are now worthless.

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

For AC a defender build can use scimitars and get higher ac if built right can grab intimidate and hold full aggro using intimidate (my defender has a 88 AC over 90 if buffed right in raids ... and has a fraction of the gear no yugoloth pots as my Monk who hits 87 fully raid buffed with yugoloth pots) and they do compareable damage when you add fighter attack boost and higher crit rates and procs from greensteel (another monk short coming)

For KI GENERATION .. a fighter has it better two levels of monk rest fighter using longswords can generate and use ki more effectively then a full monk? makes no sense at all does it.

For healing - not even as good as free spells for radient servant
For buffs - not nearly as good as barb buffs and last only 1 min making them useless especially if you cannot build ki fast enough to use them.
For CC - not nearly as high DC as fighters or barbs for stuns and not nearly as high as casters for holds and caster holds are mass not single target.

without KI monks are worthless. This update makes monks worthless. Cant take advantage of Quivering palm if you never have enough ki to use it.

Something worth considering is that light is more ki-intensive than dark and if you really want to be a wind+shintao build you might want to consider that that won't work with the tons of ki moves light's got available, or switch away from dex to str/wis based to keep your dcs up, etc.

Monk dcs can easily surpass casters (my 26 wis monk has dcs in the 40s), if you want them to.

[Drfirewater79]

See, for that to be interpreted as a problem would require some serious justification. Doing tons of damage is an intentional benefit of Kensei and Frenzied Berserker.

No your wrong there ... Doing tons of damage is the intentional benefit to filling the DPS ROLE in a MMO.

People might not like it but there are estabilished roles in MMOs.

Healers - in DDO we have clerics bards and favored souls ... situational healers umders and casters vs warforged. Spot heals from Palidans and rangers and craptastic masses on light monks.

Crowd Control- In DDo we have Arcanes and divines for that on top of stunning fist and trip best used by high str fighters and barbs.

melee DPS- In DDO its all about barbarians fighters and the well built for dps bard or palidan. arguable tempest rangers as well and in the next update without a doubt rouges as well.

Trappers- rouges and arcane trickster builds

Ranged DPS - In DDO rangers and if they ever git it to work maybe the greensteel shuriken monk.

buffers - Bards and casters ... monks buffs dont last long enough and in next update are not worth the ki expense.

Tanks - Intimidate and threat are both in favor of palidans barbarians and fighters.

so what freaking role do monks play? we arent good enough at healing to be healers ... we dont have enough AC Hps and no intimidate features or hate generation to be tanks ... our only CC is single target and costs ki which is hard to generate.... And unless your a STR monk you cannot even pretend to do dps for a joke. Even as a STR monk your still not gonna do half the damage as some of the other melee dps classes.

Pigeon hole classes into defined roles all you want .. but dont put one class out because you cannot figure out how to balance it. Figure out how to balance the game before you make gamebreaking changes to it. That is what a good development team does. Its what i thought Turbine had since EU. I dont mind being wrong .. but i do mind being this wrong.

[Junts]

No your wrong there ... Doing tons of damage is the intentional benefit to filling the DPS ROLE in a MMO.

People might not like it but there are estabilished roles in MMOs.

Healers - in DDO we have clerics bards and favored souls ... situational healers umders and casters vs warforged. Spot heals from Palidans and rangers and craptastic masses on light monks.

Crowd Control- In DDo we have Arcanes and divines for that on top of stunning fist and trip best used by high str fighters and barbs.

melee DPS- In DDO its all about barbarians fighters and the well built for dps bard or palidan. arguable tempest rangers as well and in the next update without a doubt rouges as well.

Trappers- rouges and arcane trickster builds

Ranged DPS - In DDO rangers and if they ever git it to work maybe the greensteel shuriken monk.

buffers - Bards and casters ... monks buffs dont last long enough and in next update are not worth the ki expense.

Tanks - Intimidate and threat are both in favor of palidans barbarians and fighters.

so what freaking role do monks play? we arent good enough at healing to be healers ... we dont have enough AC Hps and no intimidate features or hate generation to be tanks ... our only CC is single target and costs ki which is hard to generate.... And unless your a STR monk you cannot even pretend to do dps for a joke. Even as a STR monk your still not gonna do half the damage as some of the other melee dps classes.

Pigeon hole classes into defined roles all you want .. but dont put one class out because you cannot figure out how to balance it. Figure out how to balance the game before you make gamebreaking changes to it. That is what a good development team does. Its what i thought Turbine had since EU. I dont mind being wrong .. but i do mind being this wrong.

I pull aggro from fighters, barbs and paladins pretty regularly on non-epic bosses. I dont hold the epic bosses very often primarily due to the loss of sneak-attack hit bonuses.

There's no reason a monk designed to can't play a dps role .. even a wisdom-based monk. You're the one playing a dex/wis build that can't hurt anything and complaining you aren't a dps character.

Builds with weapon finesse are irrelevant on DDO. It isnt just monks - even drow rogues are better off strength based right now.

[Drfirewater79]

Something worth considering is that light is more ki-intensive than dark and if you really want to be a wind+shintao build you might want to consider that that won't work with the tons of ki moves light's got available, or switch away from dex to str/wis based to keep your dcs up, etc.

Monk dcs can easily surpass casters (my 26 wis monk has dcs in the 40s), if you want them to.

If i wanted to be a str monk i would be one ... but he is built as a halfling .. so its pointless. The whole reason i liked my monk was because it was a solo class if i needed it to be. AC made it harder for mobs to hit me (not that it matters in most end game content) UMD so i could heal when times got tough.

Also i am calling you out on this .. 26 wis monk with 40 dc's is BS .. i have a 28 windstance 32 water stance wisdom and my DC's are 38 and 41. My wizard pale master will be at a natural 40 dc with gear going to 42-44 pending on stance.

Only way for a monk to get DCs as good as a caster is if they go full wisdom and then have no to hit at all because they use DEX or STR to hit and cannot get high enough str unless they are a halforc.

The solution to this problem is not force me to TR because i am not a str monk .. the solution is to increase ki gen while in stance to 1 every hit then modifiy it with monk levels and stance bonuses and items and crits.

I was dark monk until about two weeks ago (as dark monks are far more fun) switched to light monk on lama and found it was better choice because of the number of holds vs the majority of end game non epic mobs and since ki gen isnt high enough to allow for frequent use of ToD there was no point in being a dark monk at all. I do more damage as a light monk even with the nerf. Light monks have more abilities .. but i was sitting at less then 10 ki without using the special light monk abilities. I couldnt even just cycle through stun quivering light curse then dance combo without running out of ki while soloing.

Monks no longer fill a role in DDO ... DEX monks especially.

Dont see why i should be forced to spend 14$ to LR my halfling monk into a str build just to be gimped and not be able to enjoy the class. Just like i dont see why i should be forced to TR into a half orc so i could be effective and be forced to grind up levels again when i absolutely hate grinding exp.

Why would i want to do this .. .if I could just make another character that is not a monk and be better at all of it then a monk is?

Right now my Defender fighter has higher ac with less gear can vorpal and with the shield feat changes has nearly 40 DR with a shield the procs 120 point heals with current gear and will be procing over 200 point heals when my new DT is finished. 70 intimidate and a 35 umd now but will be 37 umd when i get my gloves from titan.

Why the hell would anyone want to play a monk after these changes... how could the dev's not feel like total asses when they realize people have to PAY for the monk class and its the worst class for any role in the game ?

I PAID for this games content and features ... and they changed it after the fact ... I PAID for this game because it was fun to play ... they removed the value but dont rebate my expense. They took my 200$ then provide me with a lower level of satisfaction.

[Junts]

If i wanted to be a str monk i would be one ... but he is built as a halfling .. so its pointless. The whole reason i liked my monk was because it was a solo class if i needed it to be. AC made it harder for mobs to hit me (not that it matters in most end game content) UMD so i could heal when times got tough.

Also i am calling you out on this .. 26 wis monk with 40 dc's is BS .. i have a 28 windstance 32 water stance wisdom and my DC's are 38 and 41. My wizard pale master will be at a natural 40 dc with gear going to 42-44 pending on stance.

Only way for a monk to get DCs as good as a caster is if they go full wisdom and then have no to hit at all because they use DEX or STR to hit and cannot get high enough str unless they are a halforc.

The solution to this problem is not force me to TR because i am not a str monk .. the solution is to increase ki gen while in stance to 1 every hit then modifiy it with monk levels and stance bonuses and items and crits.

I was dark monk until about two weeks ago (as dark monks are far more fun) switched to light monk on lama and found it was better choice because of the number of holds vs the majority of end game non epic mobs and since ki gen isnt high enough to allow for frequent use of ToD there was no point in being a dark monk at all. I do more damage as a light monk even with the nerf. Light monks have more abilities .. but i was sitting at less then 10 ki without using the special light monk abilities. I couldnt even just cycle through stun quivering light curse then dance combo without running out of ki while soloing.

Monks no longer fill a role in DDO ... DEX monks especially.

Dont see why i should be forced to spend 14$ to LR my halfling monk into a str build just to be gimped and not be able to enjoy the class. Just like i dont see why i should be forced to TR into a half orc so i could be effective and be forced to grind up levels again when i absolutely hate grinding exp.

Why would i want to do this .. .if I could just make another character that is not a monk and be better at all of it then a monk is?

Right now my Defender fighter has higher ac with less gear can vorpal and with the shield feat changes has nearly 40 DR with a shield the procs 120 point heals with current gear and will be procing over 200 point heals when my new DT is finished. 70 intimidate and a 35 umd now but will be 37 umd when i get my gloves from titan.

Why the hell would anyone want to play a monk after these changes... how could the dev's not feel like total asses when they realize people have to PAY for the monk class and its the worst class for any role in the game ?

I PAID for this games content and features ... and they changed it after the fact ... I PAID for this game because it was fun to play ... they removed the value but dont rebate my expense. They took my 200$ then provide me with a lower level of satisfaction.

I've got warforged tactics 3: My stunning fist is 41, blow is 40, dc on wis-based stuff is 38. 8 wis + 3 enhance + 10 wraps + 10 monk + 10 base = 41. 17 str + 3 enhance + 10 base + 10 wraps = 40.

What you say is, in general, basically completely untrue. Well equipped monks dominate killing trash mobs and will actually lose less of their ability to do so relative to other people due to hte autocrit changes. I routinely smack barbs and fighters around in killcount terms, and there are far better equipped monks than mine.

There is no inherent problem with the monk class, any more than there is with the rogue class or the paladin class. Many people make versions of all 3 that are bad, and soemtimes game changes make your build not work anymore. Look at the first life of my character: i was a halfling 18 monk/1 rog//1 build with 39 umd and the ability to go 70-80 ac. Guess what? That's totally useless in today's game. That's why I tr'd out of it .. and the half elf and half orc builds are even better than the warforged I'm presently playing.

You don't get to make a character that puts no effort statistically into damage dealing or any effort in build and gear into improving ki generation and gain the magic ability to out-dps DPS characters or use your abilities at will. You have to put in some effort to attain those abilities. If you were anywhere close to a barbarian's dps ability with your build, can you imagine how much better than one a build like mine would be?

Monks get tremendous abilities and can still be very competitive in DPS terms if they want to be. That you've chosen to play a build that hasn't been strong since before the Inspired Quarter was released isn't Turbine's fault. Builds become good and bad every few months in DDO. Its time to adjust your character to the circumstances or accept that your build is subpar. The developers don't design the game with the intention that your particular unique snowflake build be as good as possible.

You don't have to tr because your level ups aren't in strength. You might want to lesser to stop being a finesse build and put your levelups in wisdom. You might have to accept that -2 to hit and damage is the price you pay for using your ki abilities whenever you want. You might accept that wind stance isn't the universally best stance the way it used to be, and which is the best depends on your other gear, your to-hit score, what mob you are fighting, and etc, and can vary between wind, fire and earth. You might realize that void strike 4 is specifically designed to make sure you have the options of using high-end versions of all those stances when they are the best and thati f you choose to have less stances available, you are specifically designing yourself to be narrow instead of versitile.

There's a fundamental problem with the usefulness of armor class, but that isn't restricted to you: the 90 ac my paladin tank has is completely useless in 95% of content too. The problem is your build, not your class.