Ki gen, how are they addressing this issue?

[Drfirewater79]

Hey all,

Last week I read and responded in a thread that talked about ki gen and after some fooling around i found in firestance i was still ok and air stance while i suffered compared to live i was fine while fooling around.

But I WAS WRONG ... wow ... was i ever. So I wanted to see be it that i spend alot of time on my monk soloing sins while waiting for raids to start forming or while waiting for my epic group to get together. So i went to lama to see how things have changed.

I dont wear oremis necklace because i use the shintao set bonus as a light monk. I am a dex wis build (highest ac i have hit so far is 87) and quite enjoy running hard sins on live having a 37 umd helps alot with that as does the 70's self buffed AC. So first off I should not be forced into fire stance to generate the required KI .. that is already a major sign of bad programing.
But all that aside with my standard use of stun (now for CC) quivering palm and earth wind and fire dance CC i found myself without enough ki several times to preform basic attacks. Then i hopped into fire stance ... figured why not its not like i miss with a 34 dex dont NEED a 38 dex to hit. But i still found times where i didn't have enough ki for my special attacks.

PLUS .. smite tainted totally sucks now .. because i cannot crit on stun it does almost no damage at all and has a long cool down and hi ki cost for nothing and only works on specific types of mobs anyway.

KI gen needs to be addressed.

Can anyone point me to a DEV response that talks about future plans for ki gen .. cause as it is on lama (this weekends version) i cant see me playing my monk much at all.. and since its the one class i actually really enjoy playing ... i dont know why i would want to log in. Its been hard enough to log in this last two weeks ... almost seems pointless given the changes.

[Jahmin]

QFT
/signed

Not going to be changed though

[Tirisha]

if they made more viable options for slotting +1Ki generation per strike it would be a step towards resolving the issue.

The main problem though is that ki generation for a monk does not increase as you gain levels. There is a few options that you can choose in enhancements but they all eliminate other paths. A Lv 20 capped monk that doesn't use oremis or firestance has a similar Ki generation and Ki consumption too a lv 1 monk 19 *anything with stunning fist*. Even worse is Fighters now use ki more efficiently due too a higher stunning fist DC.

I'd suggest a progression of a 25% chance to generate an extra ki per sucessful strike. progressing every 5 monk lvs for a 100% chance to generate 2 ki per strike at pure lv 20.

[sigtrent]

Honestly I don't think the original design for monk was that you can constantly use all your Ki attacks with no pause for generating Ki, at least not for the really powerful ones.

Some of the dev posts pretty much spell that out.

[Drfirewater79]

Honestly I don't think the original design for monk was that you can constantly use all your Ki attacks with no pause for generating Ki, at least not for the really powerful ones.

Some of the dev posts pretty much spell that out.

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have. If your an AC monk you are completely useless at end game (including epics but not only in) because without ki you cannot do enough dps to kill mobs ... you cannot build ki fast enough to take advantage of extra damage or healing from ki strikes (pending on monk pre) and things like Smite Tainted and other HI KI COST attacks which already require some pause for ki generation are also made completely useless because of the changes to crit production for monks.

Ki strikes are how monks are balanced out to fighters and barbarians (and even then they are poorly balanced) with a 19-20 crit range monks are now worthless.

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

For AC a defender build can use scimitars and get higher ac if built right can grab intimidate and hold full aggro using intimidate (my defender has a 88 AC over 90 if buffed right in raids ... and has a fraction of the gear no yugoloth pots as my Monk who hits 87 fully raid buffed with yugoloth pots) and they do compareable damage when you add fighter attack boost and higher crit rates and procs from greensteel (another monk short coming)

For KI GENERATION .. a fighter has it better two levels of monk rest fighter using longswords can generate and use ki more effectively then a full monk? makes no sense at all does it.

For healing - not even as good as free spells for radient servant
For buffs - not nearly as good as barb buffs and last only 1 min making them useless especially if you cannot build ki fast enough to use them.
For CC - not nearly as high DC as fighters or barbs for stuns and not nearly as high as casters for holds and caster holds are mass not single target.

without KI monks are worthless. This update makes monks worthless. Cant take advantage of Quivering palm if you never have enough ki to use it.

[Angelus_dead]

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have.

You can't convince the devs with things as directly false as that. If you think Monks need more offensive power than they have, you could make a case for that. But it doesn't help to pretend their other features simply don't exist.

Try finishing this sentence: "Monks deserve a Stunning Fist every six seconds without interference with other Ki needs because ..."

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

See, for that to be interpreted as a problem would require some serious justification. Doing tons of damage is an intentional benefit of Kensei and Frenzied Berserker.

[Drfirewater79]

You can't convince the devs with things as directly false as that. If you think Monks need more offensive power than they have, you could make a case for that. But it doesn't help to pretend their other features simply don't exist.

Try finishing this sentence: "Monks deserve a Stunning Fist every six seconds without interference with other Ki needs because ..."

... without those minor advantages they cannot fill the roles required of there class.

Monks are a melee dps class or support AC class. PERIOD.

They generate LOWER DPS then nearly every other Melee DPS class in this update making them a worse choice in parties for DPS. AC is meaningless at end game and without ki gen AC monks cannot generate enough DPS to be valued in quests.

There stun and dances are not auto land (especially not on hard and elite) and have a short duration period so they are not as effective as casters for CC.

Since a monk is not a competitive DPS .. its not competitive as support class (cause bards and casters far out do them for DCs and ability to cast at will, mana pots dont work for monks and if they did ki degeneration would be a bigger issue) ... and they do less dps then other AC builds which get higher AC then they do.

As i pointed out ... Monks are worthless compared to every other class and role currently in this next update and its entirely because of lack of ability to use there special powers.

Ki gen and ability to use these special powers are how a monk makes up for all its downsides compared to every other class in the game. Lets not even go into greensteel handwraps. But balance is a big issue for monks and the developers are crippling an already weakened class with this change.

If its WAI .. then the devs are not.

[Drfirewater79]

See, for that to be interpreted as a problem would require some serious justification. Doing tons of damage is an intentional benefit of Kensei and Frenzied Berserker.

No your wrong there ... Doing tons of damage is the intentional benefit to filling the DPS ROLE in a MMO.

People might not like it but there are estabilished roles in MMOs.

Healers - in DDO we have clerics bards and favored souls ... situational healers umders and casters vs warforged. Spot heals from Palidans and rangers and craptastic masses on light monks.

Crowd Control- In DDo we have Arcanes and divines for that on top of stunning fist and trip best used by high str fighters and barbs.

melee DPS- In DDO its all about barbarians fighters and the well built for dps bard or palidan. arguable tempest rangers as well and in the next update without a doubt rouges as well.

Trappers- rouges and arcane trickster builds

Ranged DPS - In DDO rangers and if they ever git it to work maybe the greensteel shuriken monk.

buffers - Bards and casters ... monks buffs dont last long enough and in next update are not worth the ki expense.

Tanks - Intimidate and threat are both in favor of palidans barbarians and fighters.

so what freaking role do monks play? we arent good enough at healing to be healers ... we dont have enough AC Hps and no intimidate features or hate generation to be tanks ... our only CC is single target and costs ki which is hard to generate.... And unless your a STR monk you cannot even pretend to do dps for a joke. Even as a STR monk your still not gonna do half the damage as some of the other melee dps classes.

Pigeon hole classes into defined roles all you want .. but dont put one class out because you cannot figure out how to balance it. Figure out how to balance the game before you make gamebreaking changes to it. That is what a good development team does. Its what i thought Turbine had since EU. I dont mind being wrong .. but i do mind being this wrong.

[Junts]

No your wrong there ... Doing tons of damage is the intentional benefit to filling the DPS ROLE in a MMO.

People might not like it but there are estabilished roles in MMOs.

Healers - in DDO we have clerics bards and favored souls ... situational healers umders and casters vs warforged. Spot heals from Palidans and rangers and craptastic masses on light monks.

Crowd Control- In DDo we have Arcanes and divines for that on top of stunning fist and trip best used by high str fighters and barbs.

melee DPS- In DDO its all about barbarians fighters and the well built for dps bard or palidan. arguable tempest rangers as well and in the next update without a doubt rouges as well.

Trappers- rouges and arcane trickster builds

Ranged DPS - In DDO rangers and if they ever git it to work maybe the greensteel shuriken monk.

buffers - Bards and casters ... monks buffs dont last long enough and in next update are not worth the ki expense.

Tanks - Intimidate and threat are both in favor of palidans barbarians and fighters.

so what freaking role do monks play? we arent good enough at healing to be healers ... we dont have enough AC Hps and no intimidate features or hate generation to be tanks ... our only CC is single target and costs ki which is hard to generate.... And unless your a STR monk you cannot even pretend to do dps for a joke. Even as a STR monk your still not gonna do half the damage as some of the other melee dps classes.

Pigeon hole classes into defined roles all you want .. but dont put one class out because you cannot figure out how to balance it. Figure out how to balance the game before you make gamebreaking changes to it. That is what a good development team does. Its what i thought Turbine had since EU. I dont mind being wrong .. but i do mind being this wrong.

I pull aggro from fighters, barbs and paladins pretty regularly on non-epic bosses. I dont hold the epic bosses very often primarily due to the loss of sneak-attack hit bonuses.

There's no reason a monk designed to can't play a dps role .. even a wisdom-based monk. You're the one playing a dex/wis build that can't hurt anything and complaining you aren't a dps character.

Builds with weapon finesse are irrelevant on DDO. It isnt just monks - even drow rogues are better off strength based right now.

[Junts]

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have. If your an AC monk you are completely useless at end game (including epics but not only in) because without ki you cannot do enough dps to kill mobs ... you cannot build ki fast enough to take advantage of extra damage or healing from ki strikes (pending on monk pre) and things like Smite Tainted and other HI KI COST attacks which already require some pause for ki generation are also made completely useless because of the changes to crit production for monks.

Ki strikes are how monks are balanced out to fighters and barbarians (and even then they are poorly balanced) with a 19-20 crit range monks are now worthless.

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

For AC a defender build can use scimitars and get higher ac if built right can grab intimidate and hold full aggro using intimidate (my defender has a 88 AC over 90 if buffed right in raids ... and has a fraction of the gear no yugoloth pots as my Monk who hits 87 fully raid buffed with yugoloth pots) and they do compareable damage when you add fighter attack boost and higher crit rates and procs from greensteel (another monk short coming)

For KI GENERATION .. a fighter has it better two levels of monk rest fighter using longswords can generate and use ki more effectively then a full monk? makes no sense at all does it.

For healing - not even as good as free spells for radient servant
For buffs - not nearly as good as barb buffs and last only 1 min making them useless especially if you cannot build ki fast enough to use them.
For CC - not nearly as high DC as fighters or barbs for stuns and not nearly as high as casters for holds and caster holds are mass not single target.

without KI monks are worthless. This update makes monks worthless. Cant take advantage of Quivering palm if you never have enough ki to use it.

Something worth considering is that light is more ki-intensive than dark and if you really want to be a wind+shintao build you might want to consider that that won't work with the tons of ki moves light's got available, or switch away from dex to str/wis based to keep your dcs up, etc.

Monk dcs can easily surpass casters (my 26 wis monk has dcs in the 40s), if you want them to.

[Drfirewater79]

Something worth considering is that light is more ki-intensive than dark and if you really want to be a wind+shintao build you might want to consider that that won't work with the tons of ki moves light's got available, or switch away from dex to str/wis based to keep your dcs up, etc.

Monk dcs can easily surpass casters (my 26 wis monk has dcs in the 40s), if you want them to.

If i wanted to be a str monk i would be one ... but he is built as a halfling .. so its pointless. The whole reason i liked my monk was because it was a solo class if i needed it to be. AC made it harder for mobs to hit me (not that it matters in most end game content) UMD so i could heal when times got tough.

Also i am calling you out on this .. 26 wis monk with 40 dc's is BS .. i have a 28 windstance 32 water stance wisdom and my DC's are 38 and 41. My wizard pale master will be at a natural 40 dc with gear going to 42-44 pending on stance.

Only way for a monk to get DCs as good as a caster is if they go full wisdom and then have no to hit at all because they use DEX or STR to hit and cannot get high enough str unless they are a halforc.

The solution to this problem is not force me to TR because i am not a str monk .. the solution is to increase ki gen while in stance to 1 every hit then modifiy it with monk levels and stance bonuses and items and crits.

I was dark monk until about two weeks ago (as dark monks are far more fun) switched to light monk on lama and found it was better choice because of the number of holds vs the majority of end game non epic mobs and since ki gen isnt high enough to allow for frequent use of ToD there was no point in being a dark monk at all. I do more damage as a light monk even with the nerf. Light monks have more abilities .. but i was sitting at less then 10 ki without using the special light monk abilities. I couldnt even just cycle through stun quivering light curse then dance combo without running out of ki while soloing.

Monks no longer fill a role in DDO ... DEX monks especially.

Dont see why i should be forced to spend 14$ to LR my halfling monk into a str build just to be gimped and not be able to enjoy the class. Just like i dont see why i should be forced to TR into a half orc so i could be effective and be forced to grind up levels again when i absolutely hate grinding exp.

Why would i want to do this .. .if I could just make another character that is not a monk and be better at all of it then a monk is?

Right now my Defender fighter has higher ac with less gear can vorpal and with the shield feat changes has nearly 40 DR with a shield the procs 120 point heals with current gear and will be procing over 200 point heals when my new DT is finished. 70 intimidate and a 35 umd now but will be 37 umd when i get my gloves from titan.

Why the hell would anyone want to play a monk after these changes... how could the dev's not feel like total asses when they realize people have to PAY for the monk class and its the worst class for any role in the game ?

I PAID for this games content and features ... and they changed it after the fact ... I PAID for this game because it was fun to play ... they removed the value but dont rebate my expense. They took my 200$ then provide me with a lower level of satisfaction.

[Junts]

If i wanted to be a str monk i would be one ... but he is built as a halfling .. so its pointless. The whole reason i liked my monk was because it was a solo class if i needed it to be. AC made it harder for mobs to hit me (not that it matters in most end game content) UMD so i could heal when times got tough.

Also i am calling you out on this .. 26 wis monk with 40 dc's is BS .. i have a 28 windstance 32 water stance wisdom and my DC's are 38 and 41. My wizard pale master will be at a natural 40 dc with gear going to 42-44 pending on stance.

Only way for a monk to get DCs as good as a caster is if they go full wisdom and then have no to hit at all because they use DEX or STR to hit and cannot get high enough str unless they are a halforc.

The solution to this problem is not force me to TR because i am not a str monk .. the solution is to increase ki gen while in stance to 1 every hit then modifiy it with monk levels and stance bonuses and items and crits.

I was dark monk until about two weeks ago (as dark monks are far more fun) switched to light monk on lama and found it was better choice because of the number of holds vs the majority of end game non epic mobs and since ki gen isnt high enough to allow for frequent use of ToD there was no point in being a dark monk at all. I do more damage as a light monk even with the nerf. Light monks have more abilities .. but i was sitting at less then 10 ki without using the special light monk abilities. I couldnt even just cycle through stun quivering light curse then dance combo without running out of ki while soloing.

Monks no longer fill a role in DDO ... DEX monks especially.

Dont see why i should be forced to spend 14$ to LR my halfling monk into a str build just to be gimped and not be able to enjoy the class. Just like i dont see why i should be forced to TR into a half orc so i could be effective and be forced to grind up levels again when i absolutely hate grinding exp.

Why would i want to do this .. .if I could just make another character that is not a monk and be better at all of it then a monk is?

Right now my Defender fighter has higher ac with less gear can vorpal and with the shield feat changes has nearly 40 DR with a shield the procs 120 point heals with current gear and will be procing over 200 point heals when my new DT is finished. 70 intimidate and a 35 umd now but will be 37 umd when i get my gloves from titan.

Why the hell would anyone want to play a monk after these changes... how could the dev's not feel like total asses when they realize people have to PAY for the monk class and its the worst class for any role in the game ?

I PAID for this games content and features ... and they changed it after the fact ... I PAID for this game because it was fun to play ... they removed the value but dont rebate my expense. They took my 200$ then provide me with a lower level of satisfaction.

I've got warforged tactics 3: My stunning fist is 41, blow is 40, dc on wis-based stuff is 38. 8 wis + 3 enhance + 10 wraps + 10 monk + 10 base = 41. 17 str + 3 enhance + 10 base + 10 wraps = 40.

What you say is, in general, basically completely untrue. Well equipped monks dominate killing trash mobs and will actually lose less of their ability to do so relative to other people due to hte autocrit changes. I routinely smack barbs and fighters around in killcount terms, and there are far better equipped monks than mine.

There is no inherent problem with the monk class, any more than there is with the rogue class or the paladin class. Many people make versions of all 3 that are bad, and soemtimes game changes make your build not work anymore. Look at the first life of my character: i was a halfling 18 monk/1 rog//1 build with 39 umd and the ability to go 70-80 ac. Guess what? That's totally useless in today's game. That's why I tr'd out of it .. and the half elf and half orc builds are even better than the warforged I'm presently playing.

You don't get to make a character that puts no effort statistically into damage dealing or any effort in build and gear into improving ki generation and gain the magic ability to out-dps DPS characters or use your abilities at will. You have to put in some effort to attain those abilities. If you were anywhere close to a barbarian's dps ability with your build, can you imagine how much better than one a build like mine would be?

Monks get tremendous abilities and can still be very competitive in DPS terms if they want to be. That you've chosen to play a build that hasn't been strong since before the Inspired Quarter was released isn't Turbine's fault. Builds become good and bad every few months in DDO. Its time to adjust your character to the circumstances or accept that your build is subpar. The developers don't design the game with the intention that your particular unique snowflake build be as good as possible.

You don't have to tr because your level ups aren't in strength. You might want to lesser to stop being a finesse build and put your levelups in wisdom. You might have to accept that -2 to hit and damage is the price you pay for using your ki abilities whenever you want. You might accept that wind stance isn't the universally best stance the way it used to be, and which is the best depends on your other gear, your to-hit score, what mob you are fighting, and etc, and can vary between wind, fire and earth. You might realize that void strike 4 is specifically designed to make sure you have the options of using high-end versions of all those stances when they are the best and thati f you choose to have less stances available, you are specifically designing yourself to be narrow instead of versitile.

There's a fundamental problem with the usefulness of armor class, but that isn't restricted to you: the 90 ac my paladin tank has is completely useless in 95% of content too. The problem is your build, not your class.

[sigtrent]

On none Firestance monks ... the special attacks are the only feature we have.

That is not true. Monks get bonus feats which you can apply to offense or defense, you get excelent saving throws and immunities, you get stat buffs from your stances, you get built in added AC and AC from two stat sources. Monk is a partly defensive class and one of the three best in the game. You've already noted your monk takes good advantage of those features. To expect to also be top of the ballpark in DPS is too much. There have to be trade offs in good game design.

If your an AC monk you are completely useless at end game (including epics but not only in) because without ki you cannot do enough dps to kill mobs ... you cannot build ki fast enough to take advantage of extra damage or healing from ki strikes (pending on monk pre) and things like Smite Tainted and other HI KI COST attacks which already require some pause for ki generation are also made completely useless because of the changes to crit production for monks.

Completely useless is a vast exaggeration. If you can hit a monster you are not useless, you are contributing to its death. Monks have the fastest basic attack rate and access to many sources of bonus damage. Having to slow your ki moves down by a % is not what I could call Awesome to Useless. If you were at all useful before, you are now slightly less useful. The character of your toon has not changed, only its absolute potency. That happens to everyone in this game from time to time and in every MMO ever made.

Ki strikes are how monks are balanced out to fighters and barbarians (and even then they are poorly balanced) with a 19-20 crit range monks are now worthless.

Fighters and Barbarians have no meaningful defense to speak of and thus have many offensive advantages. Yes, fighters can be AC tanks but it requires far more of a sacrifice in DPS than this lower rate of ki generation does for you.

What should monks give up for their very strong defensive and utility advantages? Nothing at all? Does that sound like good game design? If Barbarians can't maintain an offensive advantage what does that class offer? If a monk can do the damage of a fighter why ever roll a fighter when they have nothing for skills or defense?

DPS wise you will be doing more dps on a kensai fighter because of higher natural crit range and higher stun DCs. or a Frenzied Barb who has insane damage on 19-20 far superior to anything a monk can do and a natural hit of over 100 (my barbarian does between 88-120 per hit physical alone self raged non crit)

They are DPS classes. Lets see what happens when a typical fighter or barbarian tries to solo Sins on Hard in their spare time. Wipe in the first hallway is the answer unless they are chugging mad potions and playing at the absolute top of their game. All that defense and utility you have must have a cost and the cost is offense.

For AC a defender build can use scimitars and get higher ac if built right can grab intimidate and hold full aggro using intimidate (my defender has a 88 AC over 90 if buffed right in raids ... and has a fraction of the gear no yugoloth pots as my Monk who hits 87 fully raid buffed with yugoloth pots) and they do compareable damage when you add fighter attack boost and higher crit rates and procs from greensteel (another monk short coming)

What they can't do is do that DPS while having that AC at the same time.

For KI GENERATION .. a fighter has it better two levels of monk rest fighter using longswords can generate and use ki more effectively then a full monk? makes no sense at all does it.

Nonsense. They don't really have much they can use that ki on that is effective in combat. Sure they can get a big pile of it and hit level 1 elemental moves for an extra 1d6 damage. It's hardly a big impact.

For healing - not even as good as free spells for radient servant

Except for the fact you have great access to healing amplification and clerics have pretty much no inherent melee offense.

For buffs - not nearly as good as barb buffs and last only 1 min making them useless especially if you cannot build ki fast enough to use them.

You seem to be forgetting that your stances are buffs that last as long as you want them to last and confer a range of benefits.

For CC - not nearly as high DC as fighters or barbs for stuns and not nearly as high as casters for holds and caster holds are mass not single target.

Casters are easy to kill for the most part and fighters have to invest heavily for those DCs and they are on longer timers and barbarians are feat starved to begin with.

without KI monks are worthless. This update makes monks worthless. Cant take advantage of Quivering palm if you never have enough ki to use it.

And without mana casters are useless, but the point is that ki and mana are limited resources, not endless fountains. Ki is time limited and Mana is rest limited. If you can spam Ki moves at will then its not limited and the mechanic isn't working properly.

[Tirisha]

Nonsense. They don't really have much they can use that ki on that is effective in combat. Sure they can get a big pile of it and hit level 1 elemental moves for an extra 1d6 damage. It's hardly a big impact.

The problem is when the fighter has a higher stunning fist DC than a monk could possibly have. *assuming 1 monk lv to get stunning fist* Not only are they spending ki at the same rate but the 1 TOD a minute say my ninja spy gets off that the fighter spent in crappy D6 punches, doesn't close the gap between their higher stunning fist DC. Not only can they gain ki at the same rate *or higher cause of kensai boost* but they can spend that ki on non-stun immune trash, just as effectively if not more effectively than a lv 20 monk. That's the issue I see.

A fighter could do this and still have enough feats to pick up full khopesh DPS specced lines. Be the best at killing trash with unarmed combat, and be typical non-capped fighter boss DPS.

[sigtrent]

The problem is when the fighter has a higher stunning fist DC than a monk could possibly have. *assuming 1 monk lv to get stunning fist* Not only are they spending ki at the same rate but the 1 TOD a minute say my ninja spy gets off that the fighter spent in crappy D6 punches, doesn't close the gap between their higher stunning fist DC. Not only can they gain ki at the same rate *or higher cause of kensai boost* but they can spend that ki on non-stun immune trash, just as effectively if not more effectively than a lv 20 monk. That's the issue I see.

I think you should try actually building such a fighter first. Stunning fist is wisdom based and fighters are almost always purely strength based characters. They don't get many strong benefits from having a high wisdom score as a monk might. The fighter not only has lower ki moves he also has lower base damage and abysmal saving throws in reflex and will. Yes, they can spec out to have a high stunning fist DC but so what? Is that really going to make them a good build when they could have gone for kensei kopesh specialization instead and simply deal far better damage?

Stunning fist isn't even a monk ability, its an optional feat that anyone can take on their build. Trying to claim it is the exclusive domain of monks just doesn't make that much sense and claiming it is the primary reason for being a monk is also silly.

The only thing hurting stunning fist is the monster DCs have increased, and that affects every DC based power int he game, not just stunning fist.

[~jradnut]

Honestly I don't think the original design for monk was that you can constantly use all your Ki attacks with no pause for generating Ki, at least not for the really powerful ones.

My monk is a dark Dex/Wis stunner with Oremi's and turtoise path. It's a struggle to maintain enough ki to cycle finishers and special attacks on mobs in hi end content as it is. I know, I say that like I use anything but stunning fist when cd timer is up. My point is that without this ability, I cant see how I can be of any use!

My build sacrificed STR in order to have a high stun DC. 42 unbuffed. Maybe high is the wrong word here though. Monks were not broken. They dont need to be fixed. Making ToD negative energy instead of untyped hurt but I could deal with it. Now, from what I've been able to gather, I'll have to hide behind the bard, , until mobs are held and then try to beat them down with my gimped DPS.

Another post here said that we act like being able to stun every 6 seconds is an entitlement. Let me correct that. Being able to have a CHANCE to stun every 6 seconds SHOULD be an entitlement. It's quite simply how we keep up.

Now if things are to be as I have read lately, I have to hope to build enough ki to use a triple dark finisher on a boss which pretty much relegates me to weak CC as I'll be useless otherwise.

I cant copy my monk over to lama land, I tried. Dont get me started there, another thread I'm sure. So I have to rely on the word of those who can test these things out. I like monks, I have capped 4 of them and TR'd, my main. I am currently holding off TRing again until I can see for myself, but I hope things are not as bad as previously stated.

[waterboytkd]

My monk is a dark Dex/Wis stunner with Oremi's and turtoise path. It's a struggle to maintain enough ki to cycle finishers and special attacks on mobs in hi end content as it is. I know, I say that like I use anything but stunning fist when cd timer is up. My point is that without this ability, I cant see how I can be of any use!

My build sacrificed STR in order to have a high stun DC. 42 unbuffed. Maybe high is the wrong word here though. Monks were not broken. They dont need to be fixed. Making ToD negative energy instead of untyped hurt but I could deal with it. Now, from what I've been able to gather, I'll have to hide behind the bard, , until mobs are held and then try to beat them down with my gimped DPS.

Another post here said that we act like being able to stun every 6 seconds is an entitlement. Let me correct that. Being able to have a CHANCE to stun every 6 seconds SHOULD be an entitlement. It's quite simply how we keep up.

Now if things are to be as I have read lately, I have to hope to build enough ki to use a triple dark finisher on a boss which pretty much relegates me to weak CC as I'll be useless otherwise.

I cant copy my monk over to lama land, I tried. Dont get me started there, another thread I'm sure. So I have to rely on the word of those who can test these things out. I like monks, I have capped 4 of them and TR'd, my main. I am currently holding off TRing again until I can see for myself, but I hope things are not as bad as previously stated.

If you're Dex/Wis monk using Oremi's and didn't take Crane style, then the U9 changes will not affect you whatsoever. This is, of course, assuming you're Dex/Wis monk is in Wind stance, not Fire stance.

I found with my Dex/Wis shintao (no ToDs to drain my ki, keep that in mind) who had Oremi's and monkey style that I had more than enough ki fighting trash mobs. The only time I got low on ki was against Tainted raid bosses, as my fist cycle got a bit longer, so ki spent finally outpaced ki gained.

To test Crane post U9, I recently respecced my enhancements to have Crane 4, and against raid bosses that I had previously run out of ki, well, I didn't run out nearly as fast. It helped, even when I wasn't in an auto-crit situation. But, it wouldn't make my ki generated outpace ki spent.

[~jradnut]

If you're Dex/Wis monk using Oremi's and didn't take Crane style, then the U9 changes will not affect you whatsoever. This is, of course, assuming you're Dex/Wis monk is in Wind stance, not Fire stance.

Yeah, I'm perma-wind stance. I guess my main worry is that with the saves going up as we all hear they are, my respectable 42 stun DC could be useless. As it stands already, I like being able to stun reliably, because in high end content without this ability, then there really is no good reason, now, to have a dark monk in the party, imo.

Monks have to make some very hard choices as they level up which kind of makes them focused in 1 or 2 areas. I'm worried that the 2 areas I focused on, ToD and stunning, have just been marginalised. Hehe, I like that word, except when it applies to me, .

I hate having to rely on everybody else's word for it. So I'm not gonna TR again until after the update and have a chance to see for myself.

[waterboytkd]

Yeah, I'm perma-wind stance. I guess my main worry is that with the saves going up as we all hear they are, my respectable 42 stun DC could be useless. As it stands already, I like being able to stun reliably, because in high end content without this ability, then there really is no good reason, now, to have a dark monk in the party, imo.

Monks have to make some very hard choices as they level up which kind of makes them focused in 1 or 2 areas. I'm worried that the 2 areas I focused on, ToD and stunning, have just been marginalised. Hehe, I like that word, except when it applies to me, .

I hate having to rely on everybody else's word for it. So I'm not gonna TR again until after the update and have a chance to see for myself.

I saw a Dev post about the saves change. I wish I could remember the number, but I want to say epic minions are having saves go up by 4. Probably means your 42 stun is going to be iffy on high fort minions, but still solid gold on spellcasters and archers. And, another thing to remember, if the mob wasn't a minion mob (correct me if I'm wrong, but the bearded devil trash in eChrono are an example of a non-minion mob), then it's saves aren't being affected at all. Neither are saves in amrath, shroud, subT, etc.

Your monk sounds a bit like my monk, and I don't think the changes will hurt us much. They're hurting the people that were GM fire stance with Crane style to generate infi-ki.

[Angelus_dead]

But all that aside with my standard use of stun (now for CC) quivering palm and earth wind and fire dance CC i found myself without enough ki several times to preform basic attacks. Then i hopped into fire stance ... figured why not its not like i miss with a 34 dex dont NEED a 38 dex to hit. But i still found times where i didn't have enough ki for my special attacks.

It is good that you sometimes didn't have enough Ki to use some attacks. Ki is supposed to be the limiting factor of Monk special abilities; to press Stunning Fist every 6 seconds is not an entitlement.

But the imbalance between fire and other stances (and between oremi and other necklaces) is a problem that needs to be addressed. Since Ki is such a central part of being a Monk, those options shouldn't provide such incredibly higher income than the alternatives.

Another problem with Monks is that moderate defensive stats aren't as valuable as they should be; someone with 5 AC should be worse off than someone with 45, but in Sins Hard they get hit exactly the same. This makes many monk features less useful than they should be, reducing their advantages compared to higher-DPS classes.

PLUS .. smite tainted totally sucks now .. because i cannot crit on stun it does almost no damage at all and has a long cool down and hi ki cost for nothing and only works on specific types of mobs anyway.

Yes, Smite Tainted has always been a bad design and in need of improvement to approximate the power of Exalted Smite. Plus it incorrectly doesn't function on the Fiendish trolls/trogs/spiders on Shavarath.