Ki gen, how are they addressing this issue?

[Lifespawn]

Have you seen how much forum screaming is required to get them to do something like that? They’ve done it before but it took *a lot* of forum comments to address it. (And it seems, the developers spent a signifigant amount of time to convince the decision makers to let them.)

They may also have some ideas that involve a carefully implemented balance pass. This mod is evidence of how the developers work on stuff like this. Eladrin’s comments about “Splitting the elemental enhancement lines” came something like 6 months ago. Now we have a system that makes choosing an elemental savant path a real decision.

talking about splitting elements is one thing and not detrimental the same as talking about lowering ki gen isn't detrimental but doing so is they didn't talk about the fact that they thought we had too much ki till they took it away.

I love monks i have 5 different flavors they all play differently only one might survive and it's not the pure 20 monk.

[QuantumFX]

And where did this Monk design change first come up? The first I read of it was this Lamannia update (Mod 9 Update 9). So... Something doesn't add up.

There’s a magic word in there that can help you.

“may”

I seriously doubt that the developers are ignoring this. The more probable answer is: They don’t know how to address this, or they may have some ideas with no timetable. Either way, it’s better to keep your mouth shut than give baseless promises that Fernando or Glin may veto anyway.

[Tirisha]

Nonsense. They don't really have much they can use that ki on that is effective in combat. Sure they can get a big pile of it and hit level 1 elemental moves for an extra 1d6 damage. It's hardly a big impact.

The problem is when the fighter has a higher stunning fist DC than a monk could possibly have. *assuming 1 monk lv to get stunning fist* Not only are they spending ki at the same rate but the 1 TOD a minute say my ninja spy gets off that the fighter spent in crappy D6 punches, doesn't close the gap between their higher stunning fist DC. Not only can they gain ki at the same rate *or higher cause of kensai boost* but they can spend that ki on non-stun immune trash, just as effectively if not more effectively than a lv 20 monk. That's the issue I see.

A fighter could do this and still have enough feats to pick up full khopesh DPS specced lines. Be the best at killing trash with unarmed combat, and be typical non-capped fighter boss DPS.

[J1NG]

Actually QuantumFX,

They could easily use my first response.

It promises nothing other than to look at it.

It acknowledges that they will look at it, not necessarily do something about it. But right now?

Nothing.

That to me says it all. Someone over at Turbine has no PR skills, or spin skills.

You CAN say you will have a look at things. Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with actually doing something about it afterwards. Hang around some politicians some more.

No response right now is like my Magic Shared Bank thread. My Supermap exploration to Shavarath on Foot thread. Or the snaB of the halloween event thread last year.... It just won't go away.

We're waiting Turbine.

J1NG

PS. Sorry for the derail.

[ColsonJade]

Want to fix you Ki gen? lesser/roll to a 12 fighter/8 monk. You will have the best Stun DCs, Best Ki Gen, Best attack speed, and the best DPS of any monk around.


This change is not a planned change to monk, it is a halo affect from the change to helpless mobs, that a dev that can't be named didn't see coming. Monks have were built about how active can you play. It is the only class in the game that gets better with actual play. Now players that took to that play style are being hurt for not good reason other then bad oversight.

The to much ki explantion is horse do do. Ki gen has been this way for over 3 years. They have increased strikes and set the costs of the PrEs on the Ki gen that it was from before U9. If it was a pass for balance they would have come back with the lower element strikes before the the first waves of feedback came in.

Ki gen should be based on monk levels not the stance you are in. In no way should a fighter with a few levels of monk get more ki gen then a pure monk that is so enlighted that they ascend their race.

[wolflordnexus]

Actually QuantumFX,

They could easily use my first response.

It promises nothing other than to look at it.

It acknowledges that they will look at it, not necessarily do something about it. But right now?

Nothing.

That to me says it all. Someone over at Turbine has no PR skills, or spin skills.

You CAN say you will have a look at things. Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with actually doing something about it afterwards. Hang around some politicians some more.

No response right now is like my Magic Shared Bank thread. My Supermap exploration to Shavarath on Foot thread. Or the snaB of the halloween event thread last year.... It just won't go away.

We're waiting Turbine.

J1NG

PS. Sorry for the derail.

Here is Turbines response

No malice. Ki was never intended to be an infinite resource, so the changes to ki on stunned monsters is considered a fix to a gameplay problem.

With a x2 crit profile and a high base damage, monks still gain a significant boost to damage by stunning a creature compared to auto-crit behavior. (Especially on Epic difficulty, where the decrease in monster hit points actually should be leaving you relatively better off other than the ki and bursting issues.)

Edit: We are considering reverting the change to the costs of higher tier elemental and void strikes that happened a couple of updates ago, however, since ki generation is now back to the originally expected rate.

To me that says it is what it is .

[J1NG]

To me that says it is what it is .

That quote was a few modifications ago in early Update 9. "After" we suggested changes to the Ki costs on strikes and abilities because of the Ki reduction (despite the fact that Eladrin updated their post with that idea in your quote)

THEN, they changed their stance and reduced costs. So I have serious reservations that Turbine planned it (cost reduction) in the first place. Otherwise, it would have been as quick to implement BEFORE the initial Update 9 test we all had, and the changes since.

So we're waiting for an updated response on this issue.

J1NG

[t0r012]

Now I will say once again, I don't like the changes.
Do I understand why the Devs thought it was the correct thing to do? Yes , ki after the first encounter or two became a nearly unlimited resource, which was never intended. I can dig that balance wise.
Yet the unintended consequence was to take the last bastion of a practical weapon finesse build (dex/wis finesse monk) and relegate it to the status of other finesse builds, which is to say for all practical purposes , too far from optimal to be considered. It was tough enough previously to justify a finesse monk with all of the overwhelming advantages that a str build has in the current state of the game, namely the laser sharp focus on DPS and the insane amount of unparalleled stacking str bonuses available.

I enjoyed building and playing my finesse monk knowing that I was not going to be a damage powerhouse but being able to contribute to a groups success through my other abilities. Now with the changes my ability to use those special unique monk abilities will be greatly diminished, with very little in return. On the flip side of the coin I can see that a str/DPS focused build benefited just as much if not more so from the old system as the finesse which probably contributed to the decision to change the system. It is just that I see the fix/cure to this mechanic issue as impacting those of us that choose to buck the current dps or nothing trend far more than for who it was probably intended to impact more. namely the DPS VOID IV/ ToD spamming Str DPS builds.

Should I be fault myself for some of the blame for building a character around something that was a pretty blatantly overpowered broken mechanic (stun-crane ki gen), yes. Yet I should point out that only having started in 2k9 that the mechanic was pretty well entrenched in the experience by time I began using it. Also that I did still have to make the hard choices in order to effectively use that mechanic (low str in favor of high wisdom).

So I will leave it at this, I do not like the pressure the changes have applied to my build/playstyle. I urge you to reconsider the original decision or adjust what is currently available for what I feel is for best for the good of the game. Is it somewhat a selfish request, yes in so far as it will affect my favorite toon/playstlye far more than any other. Yet I think removing one of if not the only non-dps/str focus melee builds from relevance is by far a greater good for the game.

[Angelus_dead]

So we're waiting for an updated response on this issue.

There has been no change that would warrant any kind of updated response.

There are certainly some open questions about Monk design that the devs should speak to, but an overall reduction to Ki availability isn't one of them.

[J1NG]

There has been no change that would warrant any kind of updated response.

Actually, the change was there was a reduction in Ki costs for the Ki Strikes when this wasn't originally intended (check out Eladrin's quote further up, it took an edit to add it in as a "considering" ie "maybe").

IF (and that's a BIG if) it was originally intended as such, there would have been no need to reduce costs and Eladrin would have fired it off point blank like the first bit of the quote. "It's intended". Then there was a change. So clearly a change has happened that was not part of their original plan after the testing done by us.

And now we're waiting for a response on the Monk abilities, for me in particular the Shintao ones, since the change to Strikes HAS happened, so we would like a response on the abilities too.

I'm sure Turbine will see some reason for at least a minor cost reduction or a comment on the current situation. Or at least give us a good enough reason why it won't happen.

J1NG

[wolflordnexus]

That quote was a few modifications ago in early Update 9. "After" we suggested changes to the Ki costs on strikes and abilities because of the Ki reduction (despite the fact that Eladrin updated their post with that idea in your quote)

THEN, they changed their stance and reduced costs. So I have serious reservations that Turbine planned it (cost reduction) in the first place. Otherwise, it would have been as quick to implement BEFORE the initial Update 9 test we all had, and the changes since.

So we're waiting for an updated response on this issue.

J1NG

I guess if you want to say he's blowing smoke that's fine it's not like there's not precedent. But It's kind of disingenuous to say there's been no response when there has. His statement that Ki is back to it expected rate may not be something we like and we can certainly rally against this stance but he's given you all the response you can really expect. I'm sure once it goes live and the forums really heat up about it they may decide to revisit it, But as is it's apparently WAI and wright or wrong I doubt they will address it.

[BDS]

I really hope they reconsider this, or atleast look into some sort of compromise. At this point my monks are gonna go from my favorite toons to play to on the shelf.

[wolflordnexus]

Actually, the change was there was a reduction in Ki costs for the Ki Strikes when this wasn't originally intended (check out Eladrin's quote further up, it took an edit to add it in as a "considering" ie "maybe").

IF (and that's a BIG if) it was originally intended as such, there would have been no need to reduce costs and Eladrin would have fired it off point blank like the first bit of the quote. "It's intended". Then there was a change. So clearly a change has happened that was not part of their original plan after the testing done by us.

And now we're waiting for a response on the Monk abilities, for me in particular the Shintao ones, since the change to Strikes HAS happened, so we would like a response on the abilities too.

I'm sure Turbine will see some reason for at least a minor cost reduction or a comment on the current situation. Or at least give us a good enough reason why it won't happen.

J1NG

I could see this setting a precedence on lowering the cost of some of the strikes and there are certainly some that may need to be looked into in other ways but I can't imagine they are going to go back to a place where Ki will go back to anywhere close to what it was with auto stun pre U9

[Angelus_dead]

IF (and that's a BIG if) it was originally intended as such, there would have been no need to reduce costs and Eladrin would have fired it off point blank like the first bit of the quote. "It's intended". Then there was a change. So clearly a change has happened that was not part of their original plan after the testing done by us.

That simply does not make sense. Those conclusions do not come from available facts.

You may as well say that Chewbacca is from Endor, therefore your testing produced a change.

Have you actually read Eladrin's Lammania dev tracker?

[Junts]

That simply does not make sense. Those conclusions do not come from available facts.

You may as well say that Chewbacca is from Endor, therefore your testing produced a change.

I will offer that perhaps ki abilities designed since the rebalancing of ki strikes should be re-examined for cost since they were clearly designed for the higher ki income and might now be a little too expensive - the shintao abilities in particular are in this category.

You could possibly make that argument for touch of death, too, but I think they really want you to have to pay in other abilities for using that every time its off cooldown.

[J1NG]

i Will Offer That Perhaps Ki Abilities Designed Since The Rebalancing Of Ki Strikes Should Be Re-examined For Cost Since They Were Clearly Designed For The Higher Ki Income And Might Now Be A Little Too Expensive - The Shintao Abilities In Particular Are In This Category.

+1

J1NG

:: edit ::

Actually Angelus_dead, I have been keeping track. And unless there is something not in the tracker that you know of, I don't know what you're trying to say about Eladrin's tracked posts in Lamannia regarding monks in the new update that hasn't been brought back up in this thread already.

[~jradnut]

Honestly I don't think the original design for monk was that you can constantly use all your Ki attacks with no pause for generating Ki, at least not for the really powerful ones.

My monk is a dark Dex/Wis stunner with Oremi's and turtoise path. It's a struggle to maintain enough ki to cycle finishers and special attacks on mobs in hi end content as it is. I know, I say that like I use anything but stunning fist when cd timer is up. My point is that without this ability, I cant see how I can be of any use!

My build sacrificed STR in order to have a high stun DC. 42 unbuffed. Maybe high is the wrong word here though. Monks were not broken. They dont need to be fixed. Making ToD negative energy instead of untyped hurt but I could deal with it. Now, from what I've been able to gather, I'll have to hide behind the bard, , until mobs are held and then try to beat them down with my gimped DPS.

Another post here said that we act like being able to stun every 6 seconds is an entitlement. Let me correct that. Being able to have a CHANCE to stun every 6 seconds SHOULD be an entitlement. It's quite simply how we keep up.

Now if things are to be as I have read lately, I have to hope to build enough ki to use a triple dark finisher on a boss which pretty much relegates me to weak CC as I'll be useless otherwise.

I cant copy my monk over to lama land, I tried. Dont get me started there, another thread I'm sure. So I have to rely on the word of those who can test these things out. I like monks, I have capped 4 of them and TR'd, my main. I am currently holding off TRing again until I can see for myself, but I hope things are not as bad as previously stated.

[waterboytkd]

My monk is a dark Dex/Wis stunner with Oremi's and turtoise path. It's a struggle to maintain enough ki to cycle finishers and special attacks on mobs in hi end content as it is. I know, I say that like I use anything but stunning fist when cd timer is up. My point is that without this ability, I cant see how I can be of any use!

My build sacrificed STR in order to have a high stun DC. 42 unbuffed. Maybe high is the wrong word here though. Monks were not broken. They dont need to be fixed. Making ToD negative energy instead of untyped hurt but I could deal with it. Now, from what I've been able to gather, I'll have to hide behind the bard, , until mobs are held and then try to beat them down with my gimped DPS.

Another post here said that we act like being able to stun every 6 seconds is an entitlement. Let me correct that. Being able to have a CHANCE to stun every 6 seconds SHOULD be an entitlement. It's quite simply how we keep up.

Now if things are to be as I have read lately, I have to hope to build enough ki to use a triple dark finisher on a boss which pretty much relegates me to weak CC as I'll be useless otherwise.

I cant copy my monk over to lama land, I tried. Dont get me started there, another thread I'm sure. So I have to rely on the word of those who can test these things out. I like monks, I have capped 4 of them and TR'd, my main. I am currently holding off TRing again until I can see for myself, but I hope things are not as bad as previously stated.

If you're Dex/Wis monk using Oremi's and didn't take Crane style, then the U9 changes will not affect you whatsoever. This is, of course, assuming you're Dex/Wis monk is in Wind stance, not Fire stance.

I found with my Dex/Wis shintao (no ToDs to drain my ki, keep that in mind) who had Oremi's and monkey style that I had more than enough ki fighting trash mobs. The only time I got low on ki was against Tainted raid bosses, as my fist cycle got a bit longer, so ki spent finally outpaced ki gained.

To test Crane post U9, I recently respecced my enhancements to have Crane 4, and against raid bosses that I had previously run out of ki, well, I didn't run out nearly as fast. It helped, even when I wasn't in an auto-crit situation. But, it wouldn't make my ki generated outpace ki spent.

[~jradnut]

If you're Dex/Wis monk using Oremi's and didn't take Crane style, then the U9 changes will not affect you whatsoever. This is, of course, assuming you're Dex/Wis monk is in Wind stance, not Fire stance.

Yeah, I'm perma-wind stance. I guess my main worry is that with the saves going up as we all hear they are, my respectable 42 stun DC could be useless. As it stands already, I like being able to stun reliably, because in high end content without this ability, then there really is no good reason, now, to have a dark monk in the party, imo.

Monks have to make some very hard choices as they level up which kind of makes them focused in 1 or 2 areas. I'm worried that the 2 areas I focused on, ToD and stunning, have just been marginalised. Hehe, I like that word, except when it applies to me, .

I hate having to rely on everybody else's word for it. So I'm not gonna TR again until after the update and have a chance to see for myself.

[waterboytkd]

Yeah, I'm perma-wind stance. I guess my main worry is that with the saves going up as we all hear they are, my respectable 42 stun DC could be useless. As it stands already, I like being able to stun reliably, because in high end content without this ability, then there really is no good reason, now, to have a dark monk in the party, imo.

Monks have to make some very hard choices as they level up which kind of makes them focused in 1 or 2 areas. I'm worried that the 2 areas I focused on, ToD and stunning, have just been marginalised. Hehe, I like that word, except when it applies to me, .

I hate having to rely on everybody else's word for it. So I'm not gonna TR again until after the update and have a chance to see for myself.

I saw a Dev post about the saves change. I wish I could remember the number, but I want to say epic minions are having saves go up by 4. Probably means your 42 stun is going to be iffy on high fort minions, but still solid gold on spellcasters and archers. And, another thing to remember, if the mob wasn't a minion mob (correct me if I'm wrong, but the bearded devil trash in eChrono are an example of a non-minion mob), then it's saves aren't being affected at all. Neither are saves in amrath, shroud, subT, etc.

Your monk sounds a bit like my monk, and I don't think the changes will hurt us much. They're hurting the people that were GM fire stance with Crane style to generate infi-ki.