U9 Crowd Control

[HallowedOne]

I'm curious about how all those changes that are beeing made on all Crowd Control spells will affect high-end gameplay. Has anyone tried heavy-CC quests to see how they are going now?

IMO taking off extend will severely augment SP drainage, and with hypno lasting only 6s will render it useless for the "sleep-while-we-kill-your-friends" tactic. Not to mention that Extend is virtually useless, if I can beat on a dead horse again.

While most of the epic content will still be a joke on the CC needs, there are those special quests that I think that can become a lot nastier because of them:

• eDA : Fast quest but intense on CC, my mage with 2.1 k sp usually have to drink 1 or 2 pots until the 1st shrine. The basic strategy of using Otto's will be crippled for the most part, and I think 2 mages or 1 mage/1 CC bard will have to be in group if resource minimization is desirable.
  
• eChrono : Nowadays 1 good CC caster is enough, but if anyone noticed they end up with 25% or so SP left after the big battles. I don't think that after these changes a solo CC'er will be advisable.
  
• eCoF : The challenge is managing SP along this long quest, so most of CC I make by using the SLA's, a mass hold once in a while, in the end using no pots at all. But with no hypnos to help here anymore... this is gonna become a big PITA.

[Zaodon]

Some random thoughts to add to your thread.

Hypnotism: The duration of the spell has been reduced to 6 seconds, and now lowers a target's will save by -3 for 15 seconds.

Crushing Despair: Cost reduced to 20 sp, and all targets now suffer a -5 will save for 15 seconds regardless of whether a target makes their saving throw.

Non-Archmage/Non-Enchanter:
Hypno + Mass Hold: 60 sp
Crushing Despair + Mass Hold: 70 sp
All 3: 80 sp

Enchanter Archmage:
Hypno + Mass Hold: 51 sp
Crushing Despair + Mass Hold: 70 sp
All 3: 71 sp


Solid Fog: The spell now lowers the reflex save of foes inside of the area of effect by 5.

Non-Archmage/Non-Conjurer:
Solid Fog + Web: 40 sp

Conjurer Archmage:
Solid Fog + Web: 28 sp

[Alektronic]

I'm not sure I understand the point of lowering sp on CC spells. Either way you use Heighten right (moreso in epics)? Unless they change the mechanism on heighten, all arcanes will be spending 50-60sp on non SLA CC spells hands-down...

I don't see the CC aspect be harder post U9 (given the increase in debuff effects... maybe mindfog will work now? =), but mostly just more sp intensive.

[Kourier]

Try deep slumber as your hypno replacement.

[hityawithastick]

Some random thoughts to add to your thread.

Hypnotism: The duration of the spell has been reduced to 6 seconds, and now lowers a target's will save by -3 for 15 seconds.

Crushing Despair: Cost reduced to 20 sp, and all targets now suffer a -5 will save for 15 seconds regardless of whether a target makes their saving throw.

Non-Archmage/Non-Enchanter:
Hypno + Mass Hold: 60 sp
Crushing Despair + Mass Hold: 70 sp
All 3: 80 sp

Enchanter Archmage:
Hypno + Mass Hold: 51 sp
Crushing Despair + Mass Hold: 70 sp
All 3: 71 sp


Solid Fog: The spell now lowers the reflex save of foes inside of the area of effect by 5.

Non-Archmage/Non-Conjurer:
Solid Fog + Web: 40 sp

Conjurer Archmage:
Solid Fog + Web: 28 sp

You mean we have to use STRATEGY? Get out.

[fuzzy1guy]

What happens when you used hypno or despair -will debuff to land some other cc...

The debuff only lasts 15 seconds... what happens when their saves go back up?

Right. They save out. So all cc will now last about 15 seconds at best.

[Zaodon]

Try deep slumber as your hypno replacement.

non-Enchanter:
Hypno + Deep Slumber: 30 sp

Enchanter:
Hypno + Deep Slumber: 21 sp

(this is to apply a -3 to the will save)

[hityawithastick]

Step 1: Gather mobs.
Step 2: Circle of death. Observe negative levels flying.
Step 3: (insert level 9 crowd control spell)
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

[Tirisha]

A good test is the first wave of devils in DA now. They don't have the minion debuff because they are orange names, so if you can CC them now you shouldn't have more issues with normal trash after U9 goes live. A big downside is the loss of extend though those discos aren't cheap. That just means more webs for me though *on my archmage* maybe less holds for those without CC SLAs.

[Alektronic]

non-Enchanter:
Hypno + Deep Slumber: 30 sp

Enchanter:
Hypno + Deep Slumber: 21 sp

(this is to apply a -3 to the will save)

I still don't understand the numbers. Did they change heighten or something? for a lvl >17 caster with heighten, hypno either costs 1sp or 50sp (depending if you have the SLA).....

Ooooh, ur assuming we'll toggle heighten on/off for every spell to conserve on sp based on whether we want the debuff or effect? wait.... that doesn't make sense either... or does it?

[HallowedOne]

Try deep slumber as your hypno replacement.

If this becomes an SLA, maybe. But if not, nothing beats putting a group of monsters to stand still with 1 SP.

Step 1: Gather mobs.
Step 2: Circle of death. Observe negative levels flying.
Step 3: (insert level 9 crowd control spell)
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

How long can you keep this up on quests like eCoF? Even on eDA, where you know groups will spam right on you, you are still spending +100 sp a casting.


I think I haven't made myself clear: for me, the biggest concern about U9 CC is that you now only have Web as cheap AoE CC, and it now lasts 30 seconds max.

All alternatives presented are valid, but they aren't 1 or 6 SP cost.

[Aashrym]

If this becomes an SLA, maybe. But if not, nothing beats putting a group of monsters to stand still with 1 SP.

That was overpowered for the cost. When I first saw that on the archmage enchanters I thought to myself, "holy carp, that's a great ability!"

I still think 1 SP is fine for what it does now. Deep slumber doesn't replace it well either for enchanters or bards not because of the cost, but because deep slumber isn't an enchantment spells, it's a transmutation and subsequently a lower DC.

How long can you keep this up on quests like eCoF? Even on eDA, where you know groups will spam right on you, you are still spending +100 sp a casting.


I think I haven't made myself clear: for me, the biggest concern about U9 CC is that you now only have Web as cheap AoE CC, and it now lasts 30 seconds max.

All alternatives presented are valid, but they aren't 1 or 6 SP cost.

Playing a mage is still about SP management, even with cheap SLA's and reduced costs on some spells. CC spells are more costly in both SP and time with the set up combination approach. Still works, but not as effectively as before. I'm making changes to my characters over it but it's the new system, so c'est la vie sometimes.

[Relenthe]

Just so everyone knows, the devils/armorers/abishai in epic chrono and I think epic DA are orange named, therefore they have no minion debuff at the moment. Since the raise to epic mobs saves are coming from the minion debuff being reduced, those quests will change very little in terms of CC requirements. The only mobs that will be harder to cc are rangers/casters

[Engar1]

Just so everyone knows, the devils/armorers/abishai in epic chrono and I think epic DA are orange named, therefore they have no minion debuff at the moment. Since the raise to epic mobs saves are coming from the minion debuff being reduced, those quests will change very little in terms of CC requirements. The only mobs that will be harder to cc are rangers/casters

Good point. No more extend still means very high cost cc.

[Relenthe]

Good point. No more extend still means very high cost cc.

how so? extend isn't going effect mass hold as things always dies or save before the duration runs out.

EDIT: Unless u are talking about otto's resistable dance/dancing sphere. Which ya will more of a pain/more sp to keep up when the melees are supposed to be just be focusing on the purple names.

[sirgog]

eDA will probably still be 75% Discoball, 15% 3sp Resistable Dance and 10% Mass Hold on an Enchantment archmage. I think players will need to start using only one discoball at a time, however (at present our guild runs tend to use 2-4 at a given time). Lower mob HP will make the quest faster paced and more fun, as you won't need to spend as long chewing through mob HP.

If you have lower save DCs (sub-41), you'll probably need two casters for eDA now. That's fine - in part 5, they can try to both finish with ~600 SP each so they can keep max-empped Niac's Biting Cold 3-stacked on Turigulon.


Orange named Abashai in eChrono will take quite a bit longer to kill now once they are CC'ed. I could be wrong, but I believe there's no HP changes to orange nameds (Warlock S'Obrien is still ~69k HP on Lama), but they will take only 150% base damage when held or stoned instead of the present 300-400%.

[Khellendros13]

eDA will probably still be 75% Discoball, 15% 3sp Resistable Dance and 10% Mass Hold on an Enchantment archmage. I think players will need to start using only one discoball at a time, however (at present our guild runs tend to use 2-4 at a given time). Lower mob HP will make the quest faster paced and more fun, as you won't need to spend as long chewing through mob HP.

If you have lower save DCs (sub-41), you'll probably need two casters for eDA now. That's fine - in part 5, they can try to both finish with ~600 SP each so they can keep max-empped Niac's Biting Cold 3-stacked on Turigulon.


Orange named Abashai in eChrono will take quite a bit longer to kill now once they are CC'ed. I could be wrong, but I believe there's no HP changes to orange nameds (Warlock S'Obrien is still ~69k HP on Lama), but they will take only 150% base damage when held or stoned instead of the present 300-400%.

Power word kill

More than 1 arcane might be welcome now. Oh and the fvs aura should debuff orange names right?

[sirgog]

Power word kill

More than 1 arcane might be welcome now. Oh and the fvs aura should debuff orange names right?

PWK is awesome, but those Abashai have some SR IIRC, and you encounter a few of them in an eChrono.

[HallowedOne]

eDA will probably still be 75% Discoball, 15% 3sp Resistable Dance and 10% Mass Hold on an Enchantment archmage. I think players will need to start using only one discoball at a time, however (at present our guild runs tend to use 2-4 at a given time). Lower mob HP will make the quest faster paced and more fun, as you won't need to spend as long chewing through mob HP.

If you have lower save DCs (sub-41), you'll probably need two casters for eDA now. That's fine - in part 5, they can try to both finish with ~600 SP each so they can keep max-empped Niac's Biting Cold 3-stacked on Turigulon.

Orange named Abashai in eChrono will take quite a bit longer to kill now once they are CC'ed. I could be wrong, but I believe there's no HP changes to orange nameds (Warlock S'Obrien is still ~69k HP on Lama), but they will take only 150% base damage when held or stoned instead of the present 300-400%.

Well, duh, I promise I would've have come to that conclusion sooner or later if I have to play U9 like this with my mage, lol.

This implies that heightening Enchant DC's will be a must for any serious CC, since we won't be able to keep up loads of AoE CC's anymore to compensate a slightly lower one to force more rolls. Which makes me wonder if the devs had foreseen this happenning with these changes...