Casters SHOULD do more dps than melees

[Arctigis]

See, you're right here. They SHOULD do more DPS, because they SHOULD be about resource management.

But there's a problem. Take the Arcane Mage prestige enhancement for Wizards. Arcane Bolt does 1d6 damage/level up to 20d6, for 1 sp.

1 sp. One. Now, add in the new 'echoes of power' idea that they're planning on adding in U9 (iirc). Short answer is this: casters don't run out of mana. Being a caster has nothing, really, to do with resource management.

...Which is why they are upping the costs and the cooldowns for these SLAs... keep up!

[TheDjinnFor]

...Which is why they are upping the costs and the cooldowns for these SLAs... keep up!

Eh, screw Lam. I ain't paid for testing :P

[salmag]

I am against cooldowns of any sort. They are NOT necessary. I think they limit casters and ALL their capabilities. I would favor a spell lockout system (OFFENSIVE SPELLS ONLY) instead.

- Once a spell is cast, that spell cannot be cast again until the first spell runs its course. This includes WOF, Blade Barrier, Web, Haste (yes, Haste is an offensive spell - as is Rage), etc.
- Summons should last as long as the Creature summoned remains alive, and cannot be cast until that creature is deceased (creatures should be stronger as well).
-Some spells cost material components. Make those component costs higher as well. ex. a WOF should cost 10 level 4 spell components, instead of 1 per cast.
-Power Words, FOD, Heal, WotB, etc. should NOT have cooldowns. They have a SP cost attached to them, and once those SPs are gone or diminished, that's it.

sidenote:
For all those that say you can just buy store pots (cha-ching, that's what turbine wants/needs), not everyone BUYS them or can afford them. I hope you are referring to the 10% of the DDO population that can. When was the last time a Melee character bought a NEED item from the DDO Store.

For those that say there is an unlimited means of attaining SPs, via conc-opp, torc, etc., not everyone HAS those items or the time to FARM them. I hope you are referring to the 15% of the DDO population that does.

back on topic:
The OP is correct, Wizards/Sorcerers AND Clerics/FVS are more powerful at high levels (as they SHOULD be), but with a cost to them. Melee has NO cost. Archery does (they are called arrows - and they DO run out and need to be replenished), and Spell Casting does.

Melee has the EASY button: Swing weapon, let others Buff them, let others Heal them, swing weapon again. No resources to manage/replace in-between quests (only sell and repair - which is what ALL characters do in this game). Melee also has more backpack space since they don't have to carry spell components, except paladins/rangers.

It seems this update only nerfs casters more.

[Emili]

Melee has the EASY button: Swing weapon, let others Buff them, let others Heal them, swing weapon again. No resources to manage/replace in-between quests (only sell and repair - which is what ALL characters do in this game). Melee also has more backpack space since they don't have to carry spell components, except paladins/rangers.It seems this update only nerfs casters more.

Do we play the same game? I seem to spend 1/10th the money on my casters then on my melees especially when comes to repairs. I deffinately have a lot more empty pack space on the casters too...

[Thar]

I agree, a 20th lvl caster should cause mass destruction as per pnp.

The problem is that most good casters are WF or palemaster and can heal themselves negating the need for a group in a lot of situations. DND is a party based game, not solo.

[domecek1]

It is much easier to do epic rdy melee then epic rdy caster, btw. Like in every DnD game, casters are shining after long time and skill spent on them. They are used to be true gods then. This is why I am doing epic chrono with my sorc solo, but cant join full raid, because havent enough DC to do whole quest and with big power comes big responsibility. I had to TR this char to be able to do epics even, so shut up and make caster, before you start whining here. You will realize, that it is much harder then play every melee, you have been playing. Btw, who needs even less grind then melees to join epic groups are healers.

I think, that only OP char is wf archmage - spell like webs? recon? godly DC? Eh? But whining I in DDO forums? Not. Because its my fault, that I dont like WFs, because I can roll it, so where is a problem?! You have to offer something to be uber.

Or you dont like runs with high DC casters with your barbarians? I am used to do only CC/buff bot in groups. Is it enjoying/fair? If it is offer me this epic solo ability, then definitely yes. Every coin has two sides, but some kids see only this shining one and dont care about the dark one.

I can do pure barbarian THF high str/high con, I will need only some stat items, gs hp item, +gs weapon and every leader will let me join into his raid. Its soooo OP, crying, crying, crying....!

[salmag]

Do we play the same game? I seem to spend 1/10th the money on my casters then on my melees especially when comes to repairs. I deffinately have a lot more pack space on the casters too...

We must not. Unless my character dies (repeatedly). My repair bills tend to come out the same for both. To replenish Scrolls, Wands, Potions and components is more expensive wizards.

More pack space on your casters? Spell components alone take up more than half one tab. With Khyber shards, 1-9 level components, stoneskin components, add in wands for those spells they don't memorize, not to mention the scrolls they have to replenish (especially clerics). I try to bank stuff as much as possible, but you cannot bank this stuff.

My melee banks his weapons and visits Kundarak before quests to equip appropriately. He does keep his greensteel with him at all times. He has a lot more backpack space available. He also carries a few CSW potions.

My ranger is probably on par with my wizard due to the arrows he keeps but they are all in quivers now (thank you, Devs, for that little bone). So even for him, I'd say he has more backpack space then my wizard.

I use my monk as my mule for collectables and such, because he has so much more backpack space. We must not be playing the same game

Edit: sorry to the OP. Didn't want to de-rail the thread...

[Emili]

We must not. Unless my character dies (repeatedly). My repair bills tend to come out the same for both. To replenish Scrolls, Wands, Potions and components is more expensive wizards.

More pack space on your casters? Spell components alone take up more than half one tab. With Khyber shards, 1-9 level components, stoneskin components, add in wands for those spells they don't memorize, not to mention the scrolls they have to replenish (especially clerics). I try to bank stuff as much as possible, but you cannot bank this stuff.

My melee banks his weapons and visits Kundarak before quests to equip appropriately. He does keep his greensteel with him at all times. He has a lot more backpack space available. He also carries a few CSW potions.

My ranger is probably on par with my wizard due to the arrows he keeps but they are all in quivers now (thank you, Devs, for that little bone). So even for him, I'd say he has more backpack space then my wizard. I use my monk as my mule for collectables and such, because he has so much more backpack space. We must not be playing the same game

Edit: sorry to the OP. Didn't want to de-rail the thread...

I do not die very often on any of them ... but my total bill for eChronus on my wizard a few minutes ago was 8pp and a few components. Would be nice if they had spell component bags though... I do carry healing scrolls on my wiz and simple scrolls like mass invis, a few debuffs and so not really wands...

Kybershards normally float on the postbox till crunch them and I do carry tiny, small and average size ones but they stack in ingred bags to 1000 - I take them out if going to plan soul trapping.

My clerics use scrolls and in reserve some mana pots should things go way wrong but overall far between ... I'd say they cost the most in heal and cmwm scrolls but overall not so bad.

Usually when I wish to make money I play one of my casters either bards or wiz ... melee use pots and repair bills between 10x - you do beat on things on your melee do you not? Mobs like that silly abashi tears epic and GS weapons up... I carry cure pots, sf heals, neut poison, curse removal, rage, yugos... I think yugo's are my largest expense?

My bards tend to be the key money makers usually if I spend some heave PP somewhere I have my bard haggle it back from vendor fodder loot... but cross the girls right now seems probably somewhere in 50 mill pp give or take a couple mill - PP is the least of anyone's worries in DDO.

My melees probably could do wo all the ole banes, vorpals, banishers and **** on them I never use ... but no where to put them and they still all paired and toolbared all the same...

I've 20 spaces free out of 100 on my wizard .. but she carrying some stuff would not fit in the banks ... my melee have 'bout nine or 10 empty spaces out of 100 on a good day... some days maybe 5 or 6.

The banks typically hold old gear like loot to be epic'd later, old named and raid loot, shroud shards, dragon shards, portable holes extra ingred bags extra collectable bags and such... all my thriteen level 20's have 100 spaces in pack and 60 in bank - I do not tp for extra bank space ... the shared bank holds shroud ingred bags and most tomes ... have 27 +2 tomes, a few +3's and +4's litering the place ... one never knows when someone in guild may need or would like to TR on a spur the moment...

[salmag]

I do not die very often on any of them ... but my total bill for eChronus on my wizard a few minutes ago was 8pp and a few components. Usually when I wish to make money I play one of my casters either bards or wiz ... melee use pots and repair bills bout 10x - you do beat on things on your melee do you not?

Yes, my melee beats on things, but the repair bill is usually in the ballpark for all my character(s). I, too, use my bard to make more money, but this is due to the high haggle and charisma that he possesses.

Let's just agree to disagree.

[Chai]

Its not more or less DPS that makes casters more or less powerful, its the ability to limit liability, which melee have a much harder time doing.

Casters were even soloing OLD epics, you know the ones with the super high saves and monsterous HP people complained about, well before ANY of the changes to epics came about that made them easier. Melee was not doing this on the same scale. Casters were not doing this due to greater DPS however. They were doing so using a moderate DPS spell in most cases (firewall) and kiting, perching, or otherwise making it so mobs cant kill them as easily. Combine that with AI that can be strangled with a cordless phone, and epics were being farmed quite a bit by casters, even pre epic nerfs.

Meanwhile, in other news, melee have to square up to a mob to get the best out of their DPS. Doing so means taking punches while delivering them unless youve mastered twitch skill combat while moving, and even then, its much harder for a melee to avoid taking all hits.

Thus, I dont feel the difference in power between melee and casters can be measured merely in DPS numbers.

[Kinerd]

Well built melees have a lot more hps than well built casters, as do well built archer builds.

I certainly don't have time to answer them, but I would like to redirect everyone's attention to the questions asked by the OP.

A caster can (easily) hit 50% of a melee's HP. A caster, if they choose, will never get hit 50% as much as a melee. In many (but not all) cases, they will get hit 0% as much as a melee.

I have to keep asking this. If casters are SO OP then why do raids only ever want 1 but 9 dps is great?

Because savants aren't on live yet.

It seems this update only nerfs casters more.

You need to review the release notes on savants.

[Tyrande]

A caster can (easily) hit 50% of a melee's HP. A caster, if they choose, will never get hit 50% as much as a melee. In many (but not all) cases, they will get hit 0% as much as a melee. [...]

With the Savants generating lots of aggro and with casters not able to building in subtle spell casting enhancements due to:

- Damage enhancements split up into each element lines
- Damage enhancements for critical costing more AP than prior to U9
- Increased potential damage and instant kill spells generating aggro as it caused negative energy damage even on a failure.

You bet that the monsters will be in melee range VERY VERY quickly; even much more so for the teleporting monsters.

Hence, your theory for getting hit 50% or less or even 0% as much as a melee might not hold after U9. As for melees, very few (5% if you're lucky!) of them have intimidate and will be able to pull aggro away from arcane casters having to deal with the hits from monsters.

[Kinerd]

I have found on my caster that I use physics-based avoidance measures far more than aggro-based avoidance measures, whether kiting, perching, using melees as blockers, etc. I don't think my casters even have Subtle Spellcasting enhancements. Still, you are right in that the situation might change, perhaps it is best to reserve judgment until we have a broader body of evidence.

[Tyrande]

I have found on my caster that I use physics-based avoidance measures far more than aggro-based avoidance measures, whether kiting, perching, using melees as blockers, etc. I don't think my casters even have Subtle Spellcasting enhancements. Still, you are right in that the situation might change, perhaps it is best to reserve judgment until we have a broader body of evidence.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

Those methods work. You will have to find those melees to block for you though.

As for perching, kiting or swimming in water (pools): I am not certain if this is developer intended or WAI. Eyes of Titan perches: removed. Epic Turn The Tides top of shelves and boards: removed. Kiting with firewall or possibly acid rain: Firewall nerfed to level 15 cap, add in reflex save for firewall and acid rain and lower the damage on acid rain even before it goes to LIVE.

See what I mean?

Developers might want us to use diplomacy and/or bluff and add in subtle spell casting some times when physical-based avoidance is not available. When soloing, however, hopefully you have a strongly buffed pet or hireling or hide somewhere underwater

[abbadon3718]

A caster can (easily) hit 50% of a melee's HP. A caster, if they choose, will never get hit 50% as much as a melee. In many (but not all) cases, they will get hit 0% as much as a melee.Because savants aren't on live yet.You need to review the release notes on savants.

Savants or no savants the argument is that casters as they are now already out dps melee. The question remains, why so much whining about how OP casters are now and still raids only want 1? Most of the whining going on here is about how casters are already OP and this will make them even more OP but the mentality will still remain that every raid needs ONE caster, 2 healers, optional bard, rest dps. Thus making it a pain for us OP casters to get into raids or we see people start to drop group if they think there are too many casters and the raid will fail.

[budalic]

Savants or no savants the argument is that casters as they are now already out dps melee. The question remains, why so much whining about how OP casters are now and still raids only want 1? Most of the whining going on here is about how casters are already OP and this will make them even more OP but the mentality will still remain that every raid needs ONE caster, 2 healers, optional bard, rest dps. Thus making it a pain for us OP casters to get into raids or we see people start to drop group if they think there are too many casters and the raid will fail.

Um, that will probably dissapear as soon as someone starts pugging/guilding groups that accept all types of chars (can divines now do serious dps, between divine punishment, melee and shoulder-archon-bot damage?). That will spread like wildfire all over the game rather fast.

[Emili]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

Those methods work. You will have to find those melees to block for you though.

As for perching, kiting or swimming in water (pools): I am not certain if this is developer intended or WAI. Eyes of Titan perches: removed. Epic Turn The Tides top of shelves and boards: removed. Kiting with firewall or possibly acid rain: Firewall nerfed to level 15 cap, add in reflex save for firewall and acid rain and lower the damage on acid rain even before it goes to LIVE.

See what I mean?

Developers might want us to use diplomacy and/or bluff and add in subtle spell casting some times when physical-based avoidance is not available. When soloing, however, hopefully you have a strongly buffed pet or hireling or hide somewhere underwater

Why on earth have the melee block for you? There is nothing stopping non-melee healers other arcane, the ss bard and such to be a foot-stop. Agro mech entails only one person have the mob attention at the time... so it does not matter perched/terain or artificial terain (blocking foot-stop) are all one the same strategically speaking.

When comes teleporting mob none of that mater either... just blasting/insta-kill and mitigating damages along with self-healing become relevant. Thus the racial/class combined with a little knowledge become the total scope of the game.

I agree, a 20th lvl caster should cause mass destruction as per pnp.

The problem is that most good casters are WF or palemaster and can heal themselves negating the need for a group in a lot of situations. DND is a party based game, not solo.

This is not DnD ... is an MMO. Feat scope went out the window and an enhancement system replaced such years ago.

DPS and adequate survivability be it mitigation or thru hp replensihement via healing replaced DnD feat/abilities here...

Also of note the quest system itself is not a reward system in the "fun" of party scope but the fun of "pixel" scope ... Chances are you've run eDQ2 not for the fun of the group, quite likely you'd run it over and over before and may be sick of it and only there for the raid count and the shard you may get. Your lfm being up for such is just that... you know a few aquaintances here and while nice to have them along, if they're on timer near anyone suffices to fill the raid spots provided they're not a complete incompetent.

DDO does not lend well to the scope of "a tank" like other MMO's fact is all which counts is agro management and some strategy - "a tank" being one way to deal with such while there are in fact many other alternatives... one round part four shroud vs two, sulu dead in 2 min part three of ToD vs 3 min - Velah dead without the healers stressed for mana in eVoN 6 ... this is a DPS game like it or not and the party with the greatest concentrated DPS is the winer 99 times out of 100. The quicker things die the quicker you're off looting in the next quest... and the quicker your build/character becomes even more geared up to take the last quest even faster.

[WarDestroyer]

"Join Date: Feb 2011"

Sorry bud!

[Schmoe]

2. what are your toons names? because I never want to group with any 14 con dps. I sure as hell am not healing them.

Are you that unsure of your healing skills?

[Emili]

2 questions.

1. I have to keep asking this. If casters are SO OP then why do raids only ever want 1 but 9 dps is great?
Just the scope of what is learned as a standard strategy which works...


2. what are your toons names? because I never want to group with any 14 con dps. I sure as hell am not healing them.
There are plenty of examples 14 starting con Gtwf melee they end up with 26-32 con in end game. Most fall between 600-700hp buffed up.

Just thought you'd wish an answer.