Casters SHOULD do more dps than melees

[steelblueskies]

[/quote] ...everyone who complains casters are gods...[/quote]

then what is stopping you lesser reincarnating, true reincarnating or straight up rolling one. if they are so wonderfully powerful with no drawbacks why aren't you playing one exclusively. why isn't everyone.

maybe the waiting and thinking that doesn't come into play swinging that greataxe, or the leveling pains. or all that annoyance trying to get all that gear that renders you a cut above in soloing content. or that while the numbers say you can turn gimps into gold by proximity, doesn't work out until you have done all that and paid the dues. even then it still requires some modicum of effort. and of course you lose the convenience of the autoattack button too.
not to mention public mentality all over the servers. and the people who try to play one like a fighter.

this is in fact a serious point. give arcanes the derpity doo. go ahead. then the only class remaining to do the things at endgame you whine about will be one you have to buy. that will just be great for the games image. at least until you drag that into the dirt too.

or maybe we should take it up with the d&d progenitors, who inherited half the ideas from conan novels and the chainmail game system, and the other half from tactical naval warfare games.

as to those who point out the utility in the bag o' tricks. lets say we trash damage and sustained damage from arcanes. aside the fact you will have rendered caster mobs mostly harmless as well, if what we have left deals no damage how exactly do we get through content alone? wouldn't work restricting a melee to trip and stun and stealing their standard attack after 100 swings would it?

you have melee toons for a reason. if you do not have arcanes that too is for a reason. whine, wheedle, complain, and wring hands all you like. everyone complaining who has a melee also has the option of rolling both a sorceror and wizard, for free. if you think they are so good at some things, then roll one and use it for those things. stop trying to make everything exactly the same, it doesn't work without breaking the system, and its a hard enough thing trying to keep feedback productive( with regards to changing what already is without breaking dozens of things).

[ZaxisDakmorr]

Yeah! Lets just change it to all caster game then...call it Dungeons and Mages.

[Skyeson]

I think the OP has a good point but maybe hasn't put it forward in the best way (not saying I will or can do better). But a simple DPS comparison seems overly reductive. Most melees get more HPs and may have better AC/DR than arcanes. If we are talking about mobs that you don't 1 or 2 shot then I don't think standing toe to toe with mobs and casting spells is a good idea (plus spells can be interupted). If you are running around kiting while trying to shoot bolt/ray spells your DPS is going to suffer.

Each class has it's role. Even if casters can do more DPS than melees, do they want the agro? Caster Horoth tank?

[Skyeson]

Yeah! Lets just change it to all caster game then...call it Dungeons and Mages.

As opposed to the shroud/amarath/epic formula of MELEES + supporting cast (1 CC, 1 Buff Bot and HEALS!) ;-)

[Valakai]

What really bothers me with playing a caster is the 1 arcane / raid type of thing. Sure 2 healers and more the merrier. Sure up to 10 melee dps,tanks,whatever. But more then 1 arcane omg no way!

In Shroud for example my wiz 19 trying to get into group with only 3 players in it so far. (one sorc)
Declined*
I proceed to asking if there was a reason for rejection and the leader was: "sorry we already got an arcane. Now need DPS and healers."
I proceed to asking (knowing full well but just to emphasise my point) Well cant a wizard be good DPS? He did not bother to answer me - guess I cant blame him.

This type of thing happens more then I care to admit and has made me seriously consider reincarnating into FVS.

Sure I can masshold, sure I can wail, sure I can discoball, sure I can buff...but Dii-Pii-eS? Pwiiiis.

[shagath]

Before savants there weren't many reasons to go sorc instead of wiz as the endgame forced everyone to go CC. Sorc is suppose to be arcane DPS. If one cannot compete melee with raid bosses(or in epic dungeon), something is at fault. Now with savants, being dps at lvl20 seems more than possible. That's a good turn of events. Not everyone wants to be forced to do CC.

[Emili]

What really bothers me with playing a caster is the 1 arcane / raid type of thing. Sure 2 healers and more the merrier. Sure up to 10 melee dps,tanks,whatever. But more then 1 arcane omg no way!

In Shroud for example my wiz 19 trying to get into group with only 3 players in it so far. (one sorc)
Declined*
I proceed to asking if there was a reason for rejection and the leader was: "sorry we already got an arcane. Now need DPS and healers."
I proceed to asking (knowing full well but just to emphasise my point) Well cant a wizard be good DPS? He did not bother to answer me - guess I cant blame him.

This type of thing happens more then I care to admit and has made me seriously consider reincarnating into FVS.

Sure I can masshold, sure I can wail, sure I can discoball, sure I can buff...but Dii-Pii-eS? Pwiiiis.

I pointed out many times in other threads... is just a learned strategy and people go with what worked before.

There have been plenty of shrouds where but one or two melee and eight or nine arcane classes completed... and within those scopes the melee piked basically because the arcane was that strong.

[arjiwan]

What really bothers me with playing a caster is the 1 arcane / raid type of thing. Sure 2 healers and more the merrier. Sure up to 10 melee dps,tanks,whatever. But more then 1 arcane omg no way!

In Shroud for example my wiz 19 trying to get into group with only 3 players in it so far. (one sorc)
Declined*
I proceed to asking if there was a reason for rejection and the leader was: "sorry we already got an arcane. Now need DPS and healers."
I proceed to asking (knowing full well but just to emphasise my point) Well cant a wizard be good DPS? He did not bother to answer me - guess I cant blame him.

This type of thing happens more then I care to admit and has made me seriously consider reincarnating into FVS.

Sure I can masshold, sure I can wail, sure I can discoball, sure I can buff...but Dii-Pii-eS? Pwiiiis.

I agree that the rejection sucks. I also agree that arcanes can do DPS. The raid leader mistaken the two words melee and dps.

But for my case, I raid lead a normal shroud (coz I am not uber), I let in whoever applied first, and I will let in 2 - 3 arcanes. For me, the problem with more arcanes is that, it is hard for me to switch heals from the melees to the arcanes who are spread all over the map in harry part 4 or 5. It is easier for a me to mass heal the melees in the middle with harry. (I am lazy and not uber mind you)

[Emili]

I agree that the rejection sucks. I also agree that arcanes can do DPS. The raid leader mistaken the two words melee and dps.

But for my case, I raid lead a normal shroud (coz I am not uber), I let in whoever applied first, and I will let in 2 - 3 arcanes. For me, the problem with more arcanes is that, it is hard for me to switch heals from the melees to the arcanes who are spread all over the map in harry part 4 or 5. It is easier for a me to mass heal the melees in the middle with harry. (I am lazy and not uber mind you)

Generally is not so much that as a healer I find an issue in ... fact is most arcane can manage to heal themselves ... WF wiz or UMD Sorc. The larger issue I have with sizing up a pug with many casters past 2 or 3 is for the portals being that arcane usually spend mana clearing the trash ... for each melee you replace with an arcane you have to make sure the melee you're left with are heavy hiters. Part five can get messy if not enough melee to surround the boss then he's running back and forth all over the place... Intimi can pin him at bout 51 though without makes slightly rougher even for those nuking him as is a margin for error.

[wolflordnexus]

Generally is not so much that as a healer I find an issue in ... fact is most arcane can manage to heal themselves ... WF wiz or UMD Sorc. The larger issue I have with sizing up a pug with many casters past 2 or 3 is for the portals being that arcane usually spend mana clearing the trash ... for each melee you replace with an arcane you have to make sure the melee you're left with are heavy hiters. Part five can get messy if not enough melee to surround the boss then he's running back and forth all over the place... Intimi can pin him at bout 51 though without makes slightly rougher even for those nuking him as is a margin for error.

TBH anyone with the right weapons can dps portals if you have a party full of pink or white construct banes they go down pretty fast no matter who's beating on them.

[Emili]

TBH anyone with the right weapons can dps portals if you have a party full of pink or white construct banes they go down pretty fast no matter who's beating on them.

While that's true ... but in bugs is hard enough to convince even the clerics that they should not just stand there let alone tell some arcane ... come blast and beat on this portal here, the other caster will clear ahead.

[shagath]

While that's true ... but in bugs is hard enough to convince even the clerics that they should not just stand there let alone tell some arcane ... come blast and beat on this portal here, the other caster will clear ahead.

I'm curious to see what kind of arcane dps we will end up seeing on portals with new untyped enhancement boosts. Probably at least horrid wilting.

[wolflordnexus]

While that's true ... but in bugs is hard enough to convince even the clerics that they should not just stand there let alone tell some arcane ... come blast and beat on this portal here, the other caster will clear ahead.

Don't I know I made a whole thread on it http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294581

[abbadon3718]

If all casters could do was dps you might have a point, except when I look in a casters spellbook there is FAR more then just dps happening there.

As it stands casters can solo epics for scrolls with minimal resources and time, lets see a melee replicate that.



Well built melees have a lot more hps than well built casters, as do well built archer builds.<--------- no, no they don't as a matter of fact most casters max their caster stat (int or charisma) then dump the rest to con, alot of melee start with 14 con since they have to focus on more then 1 starting stat.

2 questions.

1. I have to keep asking this. If casters are SO OP then why do raids only ever want 1 but 9 dps is great?

2. what are your toons names? because I never want to group with any 14 con dps. I sure as hell am not healing them.

[wolflordnexus]

2. what are your toons names? because I never want to group with any 14 con dps. I sure as hell am not healing them.

I'd suggest avoiding all TWF non WF non Dwarf melee's in the future just to be on the safe side.

[Uska]

Another one... Really? Really?...

Yes we get it, you want to multiclass casters... But we don't and don't think it's broken...(at least most of us)

This +1

[Truga]

2 questions.

1. I have to keep asking this. If casters are SO OP then why do raids only ever want 1 but 9 dps is great?

Because people are dumb. My first ever shroud was a group of random people with random classes (2 rogues, mine included, zomg multiple trappers?). I think we had 4 arcanes, 3 divines, some random melees... No bard either. The only death (other than the everyone dies thing) was some monk who got disintegrated for 600+.

2. what are your toons names? because I never want to group with any 14 con dps. I sure as hell am not healing them.

I have a 10 con drow rogue I've built when I started the game (the one in my sig). I don't have much problems, but I also don't play raids on elite, and am TRing as soon as possible to get more CON. I die a lot less than the average player I pug with (I don't even remember when was the last time I did die), and I think that's pretty ok for my first char.

[Raiderone]

Limit casters to a few spells per level per day and your post may have some merit. Limit the infinite ways that casters have to regain spell points and your post may have merit. Cut the number of shrines in the game by 90% and your post may have merit. Eliminate casters running around at full speed and self healing while their spells do top-tier DPS in the background and your post may have merit.

But with 3400 sp casters wearing epic Torcs, conc opps, a bauble, twisted talismans, and carrying 400 major pots, your post is completely meaningless. Casters have all of the good with none of the bad.

I agree and disagree.

Number1 reason why I dont agree is that your lower comparison is all top end gamers.
Not every single caster/divine player has all that you are mentioning.

I'd love to see spells limited like in the old days. But those arent the rules anymore.
I could see it now, sorry no haste cause I already cast my one stored spell!!! AHHH

ANd I certainly wouldn't want to see the rest shrines decrease. That'll just mean more DDO Store mana purchases!

Wait i know how to resolve it, give Rogues 50% additional damage on sneak attacks for helpless mobs...

I dont know but i'm beginning to HAte Update 9's and Module 9's.... and any songs with 9's in them... 99 beers on a wall,,,etc

[Bodic]

I'd suggest avoiding all TWF non WF non Dwarf melee's in the future just to be on the safe side.

What he said.

[TheDjinnFor]

Casters should be capable of doing more dps, for a short period of time, than melees. For casters it comes down to resource management. They have a finite spell point pool to draw from, and when it runs out they do 0 dps. This is why I have always loved Dungeons and Dragons (long time pnp player, only recently started playing DDO).

See, you're right here. They SHOULD do more DPS, because they SHOULD be about resource management.

But there's a problem. Take the Arcane Mage prestige enhancement for Wizards. Arcane Bolt does 1d6 damage/level up to 20d6, for 1 sp.

1 sp. One. Now, add in the new 'echoes of power' idea that they're planning on adding in U9 (iirc). Short answer is this: casters don't run out of mana. Being a caster has nothing, really, to do with resource management.