Casters SHOULD do more dps than melees

[Tyrande]

Why on earth have the melee block for you? There is nothing stopping non-melee healers other arcane, the ss bard and such to be a foot-stop. Agro mech entails only one person have the mob attention at the time... so it does not matter perched/terain or artificial terain (blocking foot-stop) are all one the same strategically speaking.

When comes teleporting mob none of that mater either... just blasting/insta-kill and mitigating damages along with self-healing become relevant. Thus the racial/class combined with a little knowledge become the total scope of the game.
[...]

Melee doorways is a strategy I see many groups employ. Healers are likely to target the front-line melees for healing rather than the back arcane(s) blasting throw the blockers.

It is different as it requires better group communication, and sometimes monsters still jump through the blockers so the arcane(s) in the back does not mean that they have no danger.

Perching, swimming in the pools healing (while soloing?) after an AoE was cast attracting monsters in the AoE and no way for the monsters to hit back sounded like it is not Working As Intended. That is probably why we are seeing constant changes (nerfs?) in this area:

1) Extend metamagics no longer synergize with most Area of Effect spells and crowd control spells in U9.
2) Only things that "extend" are good for are buff (Abjuration) and curses (Necromancy).
3) Most AoEs shortened to maximum of 30 seconds.
4) Seems to reduce lag for the overall server as for the "reasoning" we got.
5) Certain spells that seemed to be curving around corners got changed...

In the light of all this, why shouldn't a caster with single target damage ray spells get buffed to better DPS than melees? Otherwise, casters have no spot(s) in parties.

As I mentioned in my analogy earlier. What is the role of the casters? I suspect Turbine wants us to move towards the "Air Strike" mentality.

Very High burst damage and better sustained DPS than melees.

Just like in an army on the ground, they can "win" the war easily with a dominating "Air"; without it, they're probably just going to struggle there while the enemy forces bombard them with their air force.

However, with Air Force alone and no ground support crews won't win the war; as there is no one to paint and hold the targets for you. You still need ground support crews to get into cities. I suspect the move of the stunning fist availability (Improved Unarmed Strike) to non-pure monks there. Tactical fighters that can hate/intimidate tank(s) and stunning blow hold is cheaper than caster(s) casting mass hold/CC spells; as hold doesn't provide Criticals, only 50% more damage and normal sneaks.

Might be even cheaper having tactical fighters intimidate/hate tanking with bards fascinating/enthralling since songs can regenerate with items.

DPS characters would have to be SMARTER in that they only aggro one monster at a time.

[Emili]

Melee doorways is a strategy I see many groups employ. Healers are likely to target the front-line melees for healing rather than the back arcane(s) blasting throw the blockers.

It is different as it requires better group communication, and sometimes monsters still jump through the blockers so the arcane(s) in the back does not mean that they have no danger.

Perching, swimming in the pools healing (while soloing?) after an AoE was cast attracting monsters in the AoE and no way for the monsters to hit back sounded like it is not Working As Intended. That is probably why we are seeing constant changes (nerfs?) in this area:

1) Extend metamagics no longer synergize with most Area of Effect spells and crowd control spells in U9.
2) Only things that "extend" are good for are buff (Abjuration) and curses (Necromancy).
3) Most AoEs shortened to maximum of 30 seconds.
4) Seems to reduce lag for the overall server as for the "reasoning" we got.
5) Certain spells that seemed to be curving around corners got changed...

In the light of all this, why shouldn't a caster with single target damage ray spells get buffed to better DPS than melees? Otherwise, casters have no spot(s) in parties.

As I mentioned in my analogy earlier. What is the role of the casters? I suspect Turbine wants us to move towards the "Air Strike" mentality.

Very High burst damage and better sustained DPS than melees.

I know the strategy ... what I said is you do not need melee to block the door because any class may block a door. Heck my gimpy witch was rolled in pre-orchard, pre-wall_of_fire days when what arcane did was nuking.

i.e. When I was leveling my wizard were just us three at level casters in TBH elite - over and over again ... two block the door and one grabs agro and nukes... on to next door.

... and now I give you fool-proof strategy - even if your mana pool poor, grabbing another arcane in group just doubled your pool and your DPS, grab a third and you trippled it - you do not need the door-stop melee to be some barrier because any class suffices for that role so just take arcane classes and a healer for divine spells and to cover those arcane which may be less self-efficient.

[Tyrande]

I know the strategy ... what I said is you do not need melee to block the door because any class may block a door.

i.e. When I was leveling my wizard were just us three at level casters in TBH elite - over and over again ... two block the door and one grabs agro and nukes... on to next door.

True, any class can block the door; but its easier with melees since they have the HP and/or tactical feats and enhancements; higher strength/dexterity than caster(s) against knocking over monsters like minotaurs when blocking; and now with a shield gives 15% damage mitigation, even better. Put those bonus fighter feats into good use, I guess?

[Tyrande]

... and now I give you fool-proof strategy - even if your mana pool poor, grabbing another arcane in group just doubled your pool and your DPS, grab a third and you trippled it - you do not need the door-stop melee to be some barrier because any class suffices so just take arcane classes and a healer for divine spells and to cover those arcane which may be less self-efficient.

What happens when you are dealing with ranged high DPS monsters (they need to fix range combat in DDO)? Or teleporting monsters? You would need those hate/intimidate tanks; hopefully with a shield blocking those arrows.

[Emili]

What happens when you are dealing with ranged high DPS monsters (they need to fix range combat in DDO)? Or teleporting monsters? You would need those hate/intimidate tanks; hopefully with a shield blocking those arrows.

Turbine is moving away from such idea as tanking ... the changes to intimidate, the many posts by Eladrin all suggest so. Your vision of it is not Turbine's vision. They want spontaneity, risks and randomness to fall more into game-play.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310199

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310918

Even the scope of most all melee PrE does not even support the hate/intimi tanking idea and currently only DoS can manage and even DDS will be hard pressed ... Kensie, Berzerker, Tempests... - none of those are hate/intimi tanking PrE's.

Btw... last night I ran with a level 17 WF FvS who's DR was set well enough to take under 10 damage in sins elite ... and did so to keep his mana up via con-op and torq - a near perfect tank really without even need of hate/intimi. As I said "tanks" are far from the only scope in DDO all melee should not be "Tanks" and most melee are not because most melee PrE's do not even support it - that is a WoW school idea.

[Tyrande]

Turbine is moving away from such idea as tanking ... the changes to intimidate, the many posts by Eladrin all suggest so. Your vision of it is not Turbine's vision.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310199

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310918

When did I say that tanking melees should just block there and not swinging? Front line blocking melees get free swings!
Cleave/Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave and Shield hitting at full strength instead of half?

When I say "tanking" I do not mean its always intimidate. It can be hate tanking too, with threat generation items.

Even armies on the ground not just "stand" there.

[Tyrande]

Even the scope of most all melee PrE does not even support the hate/intimi tanking idea and currently only DoS can manage and even DDS will be hard pressed ... Kensie, Berzerker, Tempests... - none of those are hate/intimi tanking PrE's.

Kensei, Frenzied Berserker, and Tempest are there to DPS. DPS generates hate too. I know, I know, its much fun to play a character when hitting things, that's why casters need fun too; not just sit back and cast hold monster and firewall. How about debuff and DPS'ing?

Btw... last night I ran with a level 17 WF FvS who's DR was set well enough to take under 10 damage in sins elite ... and did so to keep his mana up via con-op and torq - a near perfect tank really without even need of hate/intimi. As I said "tanks" are far from the only scope in DDO all melee should not be "Tanks" and most melee are not because most melee PrE's do not even support it - that is a WoW school idea.

It is a good thing the Devils and Orthons are hitting the FvS only. What is the FvS doing to prevent the monsters from hitting you? Nothing. I am going to bet that the FvS is not even healing you. You could have been better fared with an extended displacement paladin tank with Con-Op and Torc with constant smites/ zeal going.

"Tanks" ideas are in every MMO. When resources are used, people come up with efficient/minimum(?) resource usage strategies and maximize DPS.

[Tyrande]

As for melee PrEs for tanking:

You got Stalwart Defender, Dwarven Defender, Defender of the Siberys.

BTW, you mentioned Tempest. I don't view rangers as "tanking" melees.

Rangers fell in the class with rogues and monks. They're surgical strike specialists; anti-casters. Classes in this group have evasion and/or improved evasion, and sometimes even elemental resistance/protection (rangers) or spell resistance, disease immunity, poison immunity, fast movement speed and DR/10 epic (monks)

Since you seemed to claim that you know what Turbine's vision is, can you elaborate? Perhaps a developer can step up and tell us what Turbine's vision with update 9 is.

[Emili]

When did I say that tanking melees should just block there and not swinging? Front line blocking melees get free swings!
Cleave/Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave and Shield hitting at full strength instead of half?

I never said they just stand there... cleave/great cleave and supreme cleave are junk feats btw - even after they fixed them in U9.


When I say "tanking" I do not mean its always intimidate. It can be hate tanking too, with threat generation items.

Hate generation on a DDS and DD will take a lot of speacial gearing now compared to DoS which is in good shape due thier PrE's.



Even armies on the ground not just "stand" there.

... yet comes back to your point ... DPS is what produces "Hate" and "Hate Tanking" wven when you're you managed to get 200% threat it means nothing unless your DPS is at the very least on par of half the highest DPS within the group.

Since you seemed to claim that you know what Turbine's vision is, can you elaborate? Perhaps a developer can step up and tell us what Turbine's vision with update 9 is.

They already have... and even shown through the changes and scope of what they have in mind... btw, do you happen to know Eladrin was speaking about cures generating agro just a couple weeks ago. Everything he's been stating mounts up to adding unpredictability to the game - randomness is what he's after - not WoW based tactic nor strategy - They want to place the mob into sponteneity in order to mimic more random thought like appearances, to garner in some respects with the crapy ai and have it appear to play more closely like players and if not least play more unpredictable. Which is a good thing. Turbine's point... role by class is not scope the idea is to blur predefined notions of such.

[Tyrande]

... yet comes back to your point ... DPS is what produces "Hate" and "Hate Tanking" wven when you're you managed to get 200% threat it means nothing unless your DPS is at the very least on par of half the highest DPS within the group.

If the data people gathered on the caster DPS is correct, casters getting 50% more DPS than melees, than 200% x 1 > 100% x 1.5,

i.e. 200 melee hate is larger than 150 hate from casters, melee hate tanking in this case is still effective.

They already have... and even shown through the changes and scope of what they have in mind... btw, do you happen to know Eladrin was speaking about cures generating agro just a couple weeks ago. Everything he's been stating mounts up to adding unpredictability to the game - randomness is what he's after - not WoW based tactic nor strategy - They want to place the mob into sponteneity in order to mimic more random thought like appearances, to garner in some respects with the crapy ai and have it appear to play more closely like players and if not least play more unpredictable. Which is a good thing. Turbine's point... role by class is not scope the idea is to blur predefined notions of such.

Chaos, unpredictability, randomness and crappy AI? From the plane of Xoriat, no doubt

Actually, there is order within Chaos Theory. Melees are there to control the Chaos. Crowd Control spells are there to control chaos. Bard fascinate are there to control the chaos. Cleric/FvS sound bursts, greater command are there to control chaos. Even monsters like air elementals are there to control the chaos.

Seeds of order seem to be embedded in chaos, while seeds of chaos are apparently embedded in order. Systems that are stable in relation to their environment can become unstable. Systems that are unstable can return to stability.

For example, random monsters spawned, caster panic'd and jumped in water/ up to ledge. Melees tripped/stun the monsters staring at the caster that jumped in water and started hitting them. Caster back up from water and started DPS'ing. Back to order.

[abbadon3718]

Are you that unsure of your healing skills?

Unsure? Not at all. My gimp heals for over 400 with mass clw on non crits with no real gear other than guantlets. Not hard for anyone specced in healing to heal. Worth my time spamming overheals on gimps that drop to 30% health after 2 hits while the well built melee are still at 75%? Nope. When I hear talk like that it means "I don't need to take care of myself, let the healers drink pots."

[Emili]

If the data people gathered on the caster DPS is correct, casters getting 50% more DPS than melees, than 200% x 1 > 100% x 1.5,

i.e. 200 melee hate is larger than 150 hate from casters, melee hate tanking in this case is still effective.



Chaos, unpredictability, randomness and crappy AI? From the plane of Xoriat, no doubt

Actually, there is order within Chaos Theory. Melees are there to control the Chaos. Crowd Control spells are there to control chaos. Bard fascinate are there to control the chaos. Cleric/FvS sound bursts, greater command are there to control chaos. Even monsters like air elementals are there to control the chaos.

Seeds of order seem to be embedded in chaos, while seeds of chaos are apparently embedded in order. Systems that are stable in relation to their environment can become unstable. Systems that are unstable can return to stability.

For example, random monsters spawned, caster panic'd and jumped in water/ up to ledge. Another caster blast the monsters then jumps in the water also meanwhile the first steps out and checks buffs for stoneskin displace and cc's the mob both casters then start DPS'ing. Back to order.

And my points still stands... your foot soldiers will not needed at all. They've worse CC and although can take ten or more hits more the task at hand is just DPS the mob as quickly as possible... unless your caster is a one hit wonder and goes splat when a mob looks at it it's just as easy to heal half their red bar as is half a melee red bar. The mob only poise any threat as long as it is alive ... the quicker it dies the less need for any of controling it ... and short the durations of control is needed.

One of your previous examples was Greg in CC - was such a chump in CC 25 all I did was blur and before my blur run out he was dead, I did not even bother with a heal scroll on many fights, with two casters was even quicker, three and he was dead in under 30 seconds ... there was nothing there to tank.

Currently in DDO outside the epic quests there are only three places a "melee" acting in such agro control role is even needed - TOD, Chronus and VoD when in groups. But even today we have casters who've run VoD alone - and these quests have more to deal with holding off killing until other killing or objectives are reached. The quicker to kill in a DPS oriented game is what it is about...

So tell me this. If we have a boss which can me taken down by five well-geared DPS melee within 1 min why would I not change my strategy slightly and take five casters instead and which would be the equalvalent of seven and a half melee - now the boss is dead in 30 seconds instead.

[abbadon3718]

Just thought you'd wish an answer.

Fair enough. It is my opinion though that 6-700 buffed endgame is poor for a melee. My gtwf had over 800 with just madstone and gs item. No buffs, no ship buffs, no tod ring, no litany, no +4 con tome, first life, no epic gear of any kind. Dps was still good enough before the nerf that I would steal agro from raid bosses fairly often. My wf pm will have over 500hp at 20 with quarforged docent, gs item, +3 tome, ship buffs, and lich. The complaint was that casters can displace, have high hp, and range. True but raid bosses have ts, casters won't have evasion, and you can build a tank with twice the hp of a caster. If you are going to make a 600 hp melee then don't complain about the 500hp caster. Its not that hard for a melee to get his hp up without sacrificing dps. If you are a paly I understand that you need to spread out your stats but if you choose con as a dump stat on any class in ddo then you have no right to complain.

[Emili]

Fair enough. It is my opinion though that 6-700 buffed endgame is poor for a melee. My gtwf had over 800 with just madstone and gs item. No buffs, no ship buffs, no tod ring, no litany, no +4 con tome, first life, no epic gear of any kind. Dps was still good enough before the nerf that I would steal agro from raid bosses fairly often. My wf pm will have over 500hp at 20 with quarforged docent, gs item, +3 tome, ship buffs, and lich. The complaint was that casters can displace, have high hp, and range. True but raid bosses have ts, casters won't have evasion, and you can build a tank with twice the hp of a caster. If you are going to make a 600 hp melee then don't complain about the 500hp caster. Its not that hard for a melee to get his hp up without sacrificing dps. If you are a paly I understand that you need to spread out your stats but if you choose con as a dump stat on any class in ddo then you have no right to complain.

So all melee should dwaves and WF with no skills and dump stated all but str and con ... Just so you know it my barb started 16 con, my fighter 16 and yes my pally 14 and rangers 16 but what the hey... but hey my wiz has just under 500hp too and she not a wf but what's the issue?

As I stated when you have multiple arcane with 500hp you do not need a ton of 800+hp melee around in most the content 'til end game but with end-game and arcane unleashed to dps just as in any content below ToD now and those arcane can manage to maintain DPS equal to or above the melee then really most melee need not be in the picture.

[Soleran]

Fair enough. It is my opinion though that 6-700 buffed endgame is poor for a melee. .

You must hate rogues, bards, monks and alot of rangers then unless of course they play WF or Dwarf and they just build for hp out the gate.

Really only tank types should have that kind of hp 6-700 hp that is even still that's a waste alot of times.

I've yet to read any good reason though for casters to be able to do more dps then melee on topic.

[abbadon3718]

You must hate rogues, bards, monks and alot of rangers then unless of course they play WF or Dwarf and they just build for hp out the gate.

Really only tank types should have that kind of hp 6-700 hp that is even still that's a waste alot of times.

I've yet to read any good reason though for casters to be able to do more dps then melee on topic.

Hate rouges? Only if they are built poorly and die often or waste the clerics mana. Bards? I love bards. If you're going to be a melee bard though, have some hp to back it up. Rangers? They solve the problem other classes that GTWF have. Don't need as much dex, put it in con. Do we need to talk about monks? Evasion and they can take toughness for martial arts feats. No reason they shouldn't have decent hp.

Too many hp without sacrificing dps a waste? Like saying too much mana without sacrificing dc's
a waste for casters.


On topic, the reason casters should be able to out dps melee is because the are casters! limited resources, spells cast slower than melee swing weapons, spells have cooldowns, no armour for arcanes, and(despite the 14 con rouge or whoever started this with their whining) less hp! That is where this started, someone whining that casters can be built with decent hp as if you couldn't make a good melee that actually has hp.

BTW, what skills does your barb REALLY need besides jump? Are you treating this game like pnp instead of ddo? And whats wrong with a human taking human adaptability con for his 2nd stat? You don't NEED a dwarf or WF to have decent hp, its just easier then a drow or elf.

[Tyrande]

And my points still stands... your foot soldiers will not needed at all. They've worse CC and although can take ten or more hits more the task at hand is just DPS the mob as quickly as possible... [...]

So tell me this. If we have a boss which can me taken down by five well-geared DPS melee within 1 min why would I not change my strategy slightly and take five casters instead and which would be the equalvalent of seven and a half melee - now the boss is dead in 30 seconds instead.

Don't you go and tell the army that they are not needed.

Weak CC from melees? They can get to 70+ strength raged with stunning blow DCs in the 50s? No caster DC of any school can get that high.

Your math is off. A minute's job done by 5 melees should be done in 40 seconds by 7.5 melees, not 30. 30 seconds need 10 melees. This is assuming perfect coordination and efficiency and no maximum stacking issues. With those curses, there are maximum boundaries. Like 3 stacks of Niac's Biting Cold for example. So, your example of 5 casters would only do the work of 3 casters if casting Niac's Biting Cold.

My point still stands. Melee characters are needed in U9.

In real gaming situations, those five casters may not be as well geared as those 5 DPS melees and can be dead in that 40 seconds before the boss goes down.

Dead character = 0 DPS.

I have seen a lot of dead casters in my EDQ runs. It is supposedly to favor casters. But most leaders only take 2 casters, why? Because the mass heal cycles do not favor casters.

Epic DQ is a lot easier with an intimidation tank and a row of melees and casters in the back doing DPS to bring her down.

Without melees, those casters would have been knocked down and dead.

As for casters that solo VOD. You cannot take exceptional players into consideration and tell me that every average caster on the server is like that. Melee characters are easier to play and gear well. To solo VOD, one needs Torc, Concordant Opposition, be able to self-heal to full in one uninterrupted spell, Firestorm Greaves and/or some basically buff-able to fire immunity gear. Don't have to worry about curses. A stack of SP potions if needed. Now, I do not think an average caster on the LIVE server has ALL these. Dungeon scaling is also in effect. Perhaps only the top 10% casters can solo VOD. I am being generous in this regard.

Have you seen those 6 CON drow casters running around?

[elujin]

Don't you go and tell the army that they are not needed.

Weak CC from melees? They can get to 70+ strength raged with stunning blow DCs in the 50s? No caster DC of any school can get that high.

Your math is off. A minute's job done by 5 melees should be done in 40 seconds by 7.5 melees, not 30. 30 seconds need 10 melees. This is assuming perfect coordination and efficiency and no maximum stacking issues. With those curses, there are maximum boundaries. Like 3 stacks of Niac's Biting Cold for example. So, your example of 5 casters would only do the work of 3 casters if casting Niac's Biting Cold.

My point still stands. Melee characters are needed in U9.

In real gaming situations, those five casters may not be as well geared as those 5 DPS melees and can be dead in that 40 seconds before the boss goes down.

Dead character = 0 DPS.

I have seen a lot of dead casters in my EDQ runs. It is supposedly to favor casters. But most leaders only take 2 casters, why? Because the mass heal cycles do not favor casters.

Epic DQ is a lot easier with an intimidation tank and a row of melees and casters in the back doing DPS to bring her down.

Without melees, those casters would have been knocked down and dead.

As for casters that solo VOD. You cannot take exceptional players into consideration and tell me that every average caster on the server is like that. Melee characters are easier to play and gear well. To solo VOD, one needs Torc, Concordant Opposition, be able to self-heal to full in one uninterrupted spell, Firestorm Greaves and/or some basically buff-able to fire immunity gear. Don't have to worry about curses. A stack of SP potions if needed. Now, I do not think an average caster on the LIVE server has ALL these. Dungeon scaling is also in effect. Perhaps only the top 10% casters can solo VOD. I am being generous in this regard.

Have you seen those 6 CON drow casters running around?

i agree well palyed well geard casters should be around top dps like rogs are but unlike most barb builds its mutch easyer to botch up a caster /play them badly /or under gear them and i can tell you most casters don't have 500 hp

i say this as a dedicated meele player i never got into casters and i don't know mutch about what gear to aim for i tryed a few times but the early levels are zzz giving sorcerer a shot now not sure he will survive

[Cartheron]

i agree well palyed well geard casters should be around top dps like rogs are but unlike most barb builds its mutch easyer to botch up a caster /play them badly /or under gear them and i can tell you most casters don't have 500 hp

i say this as a dedicated meele player i never got into casters and i don't know mutch about what gear to aim for i tryed a few times but the early levels are zzz giving sorcerer a shot now not sure he will survive

Most melees dont have 500hp too (sad experiences in Shroud on my FVS tend to confirm that )

Top possible hps for PM wizard are in 700 region. For sorc, about 600 I think. If someone build his caster to have 250hp it is his problem, not casters in general. Undergeared 400hps melee will die even easier than arcane with the same hp (which are not so hard to achieve on arcane).

Thing is:

1. Q:Are arcanes less survivable than melees (real arcanes, not gimps )
A: No, they can have quite high hp, they can move to avoid dmg while still doing they job, they have alot of protective buffs and usually reliable self healing.

2. Q: Are arcanes having any problems dealing with trash?
A: No, thye can CC it, instakill it and in most cases just nuke the **** out of it. Or just invis+run past it

3. So why most raid groups take only 1-2 arcanes?
A: Because their burst dps is currently not much higher than melee dps and most arcanes can not sustain it long enough.

Give arcanes extreme burst dps and high sustainable dps, which will let them kill raid bosses fast enough to not run out of sp, and seriously, why bother with melees?

You cant compare gimpy 200hp sorc with only sup potency VI and wizardry VI item to fully geared barb. Compare fully geared, 600hp sorc with eardweleer, Epic dagger and Noxious ember to barb with epic marilith and eSoS. Otherwise it is not a fair comparison.

[Emili]

Don't you go and tell the army that they are not needed.

This is an MMO ... not some country, is no peace keeping involved - takes no prosoners nor territories gained. It's Kill the mob before it kills you and that's all.
Weak CC from melees? They can get to 70+ strength raged with stunning blow DCs in the 50s? No caster DC of any school can get that high.
Most my melee are such... and we also know the cooldown compared to a spells.


Your math is off. A minute's job done by 5 melees should be done in 40 seconds by 7.5 melees, not 30. 30 seconds need 10 melees.Yes sorry is 4am still no excuse ... This is assuming perfect coordination and efficiency and no maximum stacking issues. Speaking averages With those curses, there are maximum boundaries. Like 3 stacks of Niac's Biting Cold for example. So, your example of 5 casters would only do the work of 3 casters if casting Niac's Biting Cold.

The game is played in averages ...

My point still stands. Melee characters are needed in U9.

In real gaming situations, those five casters may not be as well geared as those 5 DPS melees and can be dead in that 40 seconds before the boss goes down.

Dead character = 0 DPS.

I have seen a lot of dead casters in my EDQ runs. It is supposedly to favor casters. But most leaders only take 2 casters, why? Because the mass heal cycles do not favor casters.

Epic DQ is a lot easier with an intimidation tank and a row of melees and casters in the back doing DPS to bring her down.

... again it all depends how quickly you may bring her current epic 100.000hp down. Will two or three melee suffice to block now with a back lot of four or five well geared arcane? Remember caster spell damage has gone up and depends on spell cycle and how quickly they can unload a mana bar.

Without melees, those casters would have been knocked down and dead.

... as stands on live server now. Remember caster burst is only slightly higher to that of highest melee in current live game. Now what happens when we increase the DPS and how long they may sustain and lower mob hp?

As for casters that solo VOD. You cannot take exceptional players into consideration and tell me that every average caster on the server is like that. Melee characters are easier to play and gear well. To solo VOD, one needs Torc, Concordant Opposition, be able to self-heal to full in one uninterrupted spell, Firestorm Greaves and/or some basically buff-able to fire immunity gear. Don't have to worry about curses. A stack of SP potions if needed. Now, I do not think an average caster on the LIVE server has ALL these. Dungeon scaling is also in effect. Perhaps only the top 10% casters can solo VOD. I am being generous in this regard.

Have you seen those 6 CON drow casters running around?

And the 6 con casters eventually become mothballed or do not get into groups ... really they should bring back xp penalties and you would less much less of those in higher level content.

You're right still remains to be seen... and we shall see where u9 steers DDO. I know what I hear what the power gamers have in mind right now and what characters they're gearing up and which ones they seem to be settling down. I'll leave it at that... imagine what you will and we'll see what players figure out for grouping come U9 live. Over time it really comes down to how players percieve and figure out what they may manage over the course...