All is not well with Melee changes

[Emili]

um..

Undead have 100% fortification.. Pretty simple concept. Thus all critical hits are resisted. This is not some kind of new concept, has been in the game since launch.

This has nothing to do with disruption tho. Sure it works on a vorpal-strike now, which is a 20 + confirmation. But even a resisted confirmation, is still a confirmation. Other on crit effects, such as my good burst/blast, all functioned fine as they always have.

The warforged I tested smiting on, have 25% fortification. So yea some crits were resisted, but i've dealt a good 20-30+ crits per mob, and saw no saves or anything despite that.

Yes I know they have 100% fort ... and my point however is fort is a "Vorpal" by-pass... if the dev decided ... oh I can just copy/paste or reuse snippets from the "Vorpal" code to code around the roll of 20 for this new disruption effect - he would be making the mistake in doing so (only a few undead like Vampires are coded differently around vorpal). You cannot copy verbatum the code for "vorpal" to disruption, banishment or smite to achieve the effect desired.

Which brings me to question... what if you take that disruptor to a Vampire? If he disrupts you have your answer as to what the dev used.

[Shade]

and my point however is fort is a "Vorpal" by-pass.

Yea.. You don't understand how vorpal or fortification works.

First I barely understand that sentence. But i think your trying to say fortification has something to do with vorpal.

It doesn't.

Vorpal works fine on monsters with 100% fort. Always has.

Fortification does 1 thing and 1 thing only:
Prevent a creature from taking multiplied main damage on a crit. Main damge only. Any other effects that work on crits, are not stopped.

[Emili]

Yea.. You don't understand how vorpal or fortification works.

First I barely understand that sentence. But i think your trying to say fortification has something to do with vorpal.

It doesn't.

Vorpal works fine on monsters with 100% fort. Always has.

Fortification does 1 thing and 1 thing only:
Prevent a creature from taking multiplied main damage on a crit. Main damge only. Any other effects that work on crits, are not stopped.

Is late you're right, my mind jello right now ... I still bet is some flag set on insta-death of those mob being undead however and the fact they're coding is like a "vorpal".

[Riorik]

Cool research. So there's some kind of general thread agreement that the instant kill effects for targets under 1000 HP (on a 20) doesn't seem to be working (at all) as the release notes have claimed, right?

[sweez]

Note that earlier in the combat log, he rolls a 2 (+26) and gets a hit. He then tries to confirm a 20 by rolling an 11 (+30). If the 28 roll was a confirmed hit, then the 41 roll should DEFINITELY have been a confirmed crit.

However, reading this log i was thinking similarly... perhaps the fact that you *cannot crit on undead* is the factor that's screwing up the vorpal effect? If you can't confirm the Vorpal, you can't kill it! Same would go for elementals and constructs with banishers/smiters. Devils should be Banishable, while everything else should be immune if my theory is true.

I assume this is some sort of oversight in the vorpal mechanics translation into banish/smite/disruptors as it pertains to enemies with inherent crit immunity (Dev comments please!)

Only one problem with this - AFAIK, there's no such thing as "crit immunity" in DDO. Mobs like undead and constructs aren't crit immune - they just have a 100% fortification. Burst effects still go off on a crit, and their fortification is reduceable by fort-reducing attacks.

[moorewr]

In both your examples neither critical hit is confirmed, and the release notes specifically state that they must be confirmed vorpal strikes. All your examples show is that, technically, it is working as intended... at least for unconfirmed vorpal crits.

I posted a screen shot of a resisted critical hit that "vorpals" a zombie here. .

[moorewr]

What I think we know, or know we think:

• The "bane" damage works, and is listed in the combat log as untyped damage.
• The 100 hp damage effect triggers properly on a 20 ("Confirmed" in vorpal-speak is a second roll to hit, right?) for melee weapons
• It looks like range disruption weapons are NOT getting the on-20 effect.
• The death effect on 20 is either not working (in which case my screenshots of the zombie and drone are dps kills) or is a low probability proc.

[Barak_Hammerhand]

This was a first hit on this necrotic guard rolled a 20 and he disrupted, I saw this every time I rolled a 20 on other necrotic's. I was on elite and using a +1 ghost touch handwrap of disruption.

[FooWonk]

Using Green Steel scimitar with Greater Disruption...

Subterrane Skeletons...
--> An extra green dot damage number versus live (~20/swing)


Undead in Orchard of Macabre disappeared so fast I thought I was using disruption.
--> Extra green dot in damage line (~20/swing)
--> Saw 100 only once in ~50 kills
--> Saw disruption effect a couple times

[EustaceTrevelyan]

EDIT: the notes are very confusing. The first sentence mentions vorpal effect applied as before, implying that any nat 20 confirmed gets the instakill if they have less than 1k. But next sentence mentions chance. Well, the 4d6 is still better on these above level 12.

Melee death effects on items (and the rogue assassin enhancement) have been redesigned.
For targets with more than 1,000 hit points, vorpal no longer kills and instead hits the target for 100 points of bane damage. If a creature has less than 1,000 hit points, the vorpal effect is applied on a confirmed natural 20 as before.
NEW: Disruption, Banishing, and Smiting weapons now do 4d6 damage on a hit, and have a chance to kill the target outright on a confirmed vorpal hit (natural 20) if the target is below 1,000 hit points. If the target has more than 1,000 hit points, they will take 100 damage. Hit die caps and saving throws have been removed from these weapons.

EDIT again ahh, cordovan has weighed in! Cool

[Cordovan]

We'll take a look at the wording tomorrow. Meanwhile, if it's bugged, please bug report it.

The vorpal strike should work as normal, provided the target has less than one thousand hit points. If the target has less than 1,000 hit points, and you roll a natural 20, and you confirm that hit, and the target is able to be vorpaled, it should die.

[Marten]

Note that earlier in the combat log, he rolls a 2 (+26) and gets a hit. He then tries to confirm a 20 by rolling an 11 (+30). If the 28 roll was a confirmed hit, then the 41 roll should DEFINITELY have been a confirmed crit.

However, reading this log i was thinking similarly... perhaps the fact that you *cannot crit on undead* is the factor that's screwing up the vorpal effect? If you can't confirm the Vorpal, you can't kill it! Same would go for elementals and constructs with banishers/smiters. Devils should be Banishable, while everything else should be immune if my theory is true.

I assume this is some sort of oversight in the vorpal mechanics translation into banish/smite/disruptors as it pertains to enemies with inherent crit immunity (Dev comments please!)

Cool research. So there's some kind of general thread agreement that the instant kill effects for targets under 1000 HP (on a 20) doesn't seem to be working (at all) as the release notes have claimed, right?

I think what we have proven is that it is WAI... I think and that we failed our die roll on reading comprehension. As such I posted a new thread suggesting the efficient wording of the change be made less efficient so we can understand it better.

Please post your thought, here, about the following wording changes:

NEW: Disruption, Banishing, and Smiting weapons: Hit die caps and saving throws have been removed from these weapons. They now do 4d6 damage on a hit, and have a chance to kill the target outright on a confirmed vorpal hit (natural 20) if the target is below 1,000 hit points. If the target has more than 1,000 hit points, has Death Ward and/or you do not succeed with your chance they will take 100 damage.

Great job to everyone for having a very constructive if not confused discussion.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

I think what we have proven is that it is WAI... I think and that we failed our die roll on reading comprehension. As such I posted a new thread suggesting the efficient wording of the change be made less efficient so we can understand it better.

Please post your thought, here, about the following wording changes:

NEW: Disruption, Banishing, and Smiting weapons: Hit die caps and saving throws have been removed from these weapons. They now do 4d6 damage on a hit, and have a chance to kill the target outright on a confirmed vorpal hit (natural 20) if the target is below 1,000 hit points. If the target has more than 1,000 hit points, has Death Ward and/or you do not succeed with your chance they will take 100 damage.

Great job to everyone for having a very constructive if not confused discussion.

Actually, we may have proven the opposite, since Cordovan seems to think that a vorpal strike under 1k should always insta kill. So bug this ppl!

[Dwarfo]

Works for me with Epic Wraps of Endless Light test after Disruption, see for yourself here. When DW popped over their heads you still see the 100 pts of damage hit them and the new bonus damage shows up as a 2nd bane dot above their heads. I was happy. I don't have any banishing wraps on Lam to test.

ok screw the video, the epic music alone requires a +1 to you good sir.

[justagame]

We'll take a look at the wording tomorrow. Meanwhile, if it's bugged, please bug report it.

The vorpal strike should work as normal, provided the target has less than one thousand hit points. If the target has less than 1,000 hit points, and you roll a natural 20, and you confirm that hit, and the target is able to be vorpaled, it should die.

Many thanks, I missed this!

[Shade]

Meanwhile, if it's bugged, please bug report it.

This thread IS my bug report. Let Genasi or whichever dev worked on these know about it please.

A good thread with lots of screenshots and video evidence of whats wrong, is far more useful then a collection of unconnected and possibly vague bug reports, all of which may be wrong. The thread has the abillty of transparency and player correction the unseen reports never get.

Far as the wording goes, you just need to remove the word "chance".

[Trillea]

This thread IS my bug report. Let Genasi or whichever dev worked on these know about it please.

A good thread with lots of screenshots and video evidence of whats wrong, is far more useful then a collection of unconnected and possibly vague bug reports, all of which may be wrong. The thread has the abillty of transparency and player correction the unseen reports never get.

Far as the wording goes, you just need to remove the word "chance".

So submit a PROPER bug report and make sure to add a link to this thread in it. That way whoever reads it can make sure that they have all the information available.

[Shade]

So submit a PROPER bug report and make sure to add a link to this thread in it. That way whoever reads it can make sure that they have all the information available.

No. This thread is a proper bug report.

[moorewr]

We'll take a look at the wording tomorrow. Meanwhile, if it's bugged, please bug report it.

The vorpal strike should work as normal, provided the target has less than one thousand hit points. If the target has less than 1,000 hit points, and you roll a natural 20, and you confirm that hit, and the target is able to be vorpaled, it should die.

Thanks for commenting, Cordovan. I've bug reported it also.

[Trillea]

No. This thread is a proper bug report.

They have told us the playerbase time and time again that threads like this are NOT bug reports, and do not have the visibility of real bug reports. This is why things that are complained about forever don't get worked on, while they work on things that actually DO get bug reports.